Impossible Magic - General Discussion

[The Raven Black]

For save Spellstriking, I would just go with Critfail Striking ups the degree of success on the target's save by one step while Crit success lowers it by one.

Or would this be too strong ?

[Nintendogeek01]

The Raven Black wrote:

For save Spellstriking, I would just go with Critfail Striking ups the degree of success on the target's save by one step while Crit success lowers it by one.

Or would this be too strong ?

Been a hot minute but I think this was part of the original playtest for the Magus and, obviously, was one of the things that did not make out of the playtest.

[Gisher]

Given how much the creation of the Psychic Multiclass Archetype boosted the Magus power level, it seems relevant to the Magus portion of this discussion that, in another thread, Dr. Frank Funkelstein is reporting that Imaginary Weapon has been changed from 1d8 to 1d6 and that the Psychic Dedication now doesn't give you access to an Amp until level 6.

[Tessariel]

Teridax wrote:

I think if we step outside the context of the Magus for a brief moment: slow is perfectly capable of trivializing fights on its own if a powerful enemy crit fails their save, that's what that spell is known for along with synesthesia. Although forcing failures on saves from an attack roll would be a significant buff to the frequency of those failure effects, the problem of those spells incapacitating enemies when they shouldn't is a problem intrinsic to those spells that few others come close to, as incapacitating effects generally have the incapacitation trait. A Magus being able to force a crit fail on a powerful crowd control spell like warp mind isn't going to trivialize the boss encounter, because warp mind has the incapacitation trait and permanently confusing a lower-level enemy would likely be fine, but forcing a crit fail on slow would be far more debilitating, as suddenly your boss would find itself reduced to 1 action per turn the whole encounter. The problem in my opinion doesn't inherently stem from increasing the reliability of certain failure or crit failure effects, so much as specific spell effects that really should not exist in those amounts.

I also feel the fix here would be fairly simple: for both slow and synesthesia, simply replace the crit fail effect with: "as failure, and the creature is stunned 1." It'd still be strong, but wouldn't eat a creature's entire turn. If you wanted to get into more detail, you could have creatures make saves each round to end the conditions on the failure effect for both, and only make the effects last the full duration uninterrupted on a crit fail. In either case, a Magus or whoever else forcing a crit fail effect would no longer be able to trivialize a boss encounter, even if those spells would still remain strong.

Several iterations of Champions have demonstrated in our group that a Master Hammer wielder can fairly reliably knock opponents prone with a crit, and a Frost Hammer wielder can frequently Slow them at the same time.

[Nintendogeek01]

Gisher wrote:

Given how much the creation of the Psychic Multiclass Archetype boosted the Magus power level, it seems relevant to the Magus portion of this discussion that, in another thread, Dr. Frank Funkelstein is reporting that Imaginary Weapon has been changed from 1d8 to 1d6 and that the Psychic Dedication now doesn't give you access to an Amp until level 6.

TBH, I am okay with this. Psychic was too good of an archetype choice for the Magus to begin with.

[Gisher]

Nintendogeek01 wrote:

Gisher wrote:

Given how much the creation of the Psychic Multiclass Archetype boosted the Magus power level, it seems relevant to the Magus portion of this discussion that, in another thread, Dr. Frank Funkelstein is reporting that Imaginary Weapon has been changed from 1d8 to 1d6 and that the Psychic Dedication now doesn't give you access to an Amp until level 6.

TBH, I am okay with this. Psychic was too good of an archetype choice for the Magus to begin with.

Reading more online, it appears that amped cantrips can no longer be used with Spellstrike, anyway.

Reportedly the text now says

Quote:

You can apply an amp only to a psi cantrip, spending 1 Focus Point as a free action. If the next action you take is to cast a psi cantrip, you gain its amped effects.

You can't spend the focus point as a free action during the Spellstrike, and activating Spellstrike after spending the focus point would mean that your next action wasn't casting the psi cantrip so the cantrip wouldn't be amped.

So there's no way to use an amped cantrip as part of a Spellstrike.

The previous wording let you spend the focus point as part of casting the cantrip so it worked with Spellstrike back then.

So the changes to the Psychic Archetype weren't necessary to prevent the most overpowered part of the Magus/Psychic combo.

I'm not terribly upset that Imaginary Weapon's damage is now in line with common cantrips, but I am sad that the archetype moved amping to 6th level.

Given that the dedication only grants 1 cantrip and the archetype allows fewer spell slots than other casting archetypes, getting that early amp was pretty much the only compensating feature.

I doubt I'd ever choose Psychic archetype over, say, Wizard or Witch for any of my high-Int characters now, and that's a shame since I love the flavor of Psychic.

[Squiggit]

Gisher wrote:

I'm not terribly upset that Imaginary Weapon's damage is now in line with common cantrips

It's pretty annoying for the psychic themselves. The unamped version of the spell was already not very good. Actually just nerfing it is pretty baffling if true.

[Old_Man_Robot]

We've seen it before where teams who work on certain books don't always coordinate class changes with each other. With that in mind, I would also expect some nerfs to the Magus itself to come in Impossible Magic.

Someone will have taken to nerfing the outlier from the Psychic side, another from the Magus side, with the result being a larger than needed series of changes.

Hopefully its not too extreme overall.

That said, I am suprised to see the Psychic didn't become a 3-slot caster.

[Unicore]

Those changes to the psychic sound about perfect to me. There is no reason an amped cantrip needed to heighten as well better than the damage for many spell slot spells.

This also makes me think that Impossible Magic is going to at least have to have a couple more spell slot spell attack roll spells, because it seems like spellstrike is mostly staying the same.

[doortobe]

Unicore wrote:

Those changes to the psychic sound about perfect to me. There is no reason an amped cantrip needed to heighten as well better than the damage for many spell slot spells.

This also makes me think that Impossible Magic is going to at least have to have a couple more spell slot spell attack roll spells, because it seems like spellstrike is mostly staying the same.

There are a million reasons it should do exactly that because amped cantrips are what are given to the psychic for them to be compete with spell slot spells(and hence lower spell slot count). If they arent as good as spell slots and barely as good as regular focus spells then why wouldnt you just play the sorcerer - a class that has around the same power of current focus spells and also comes with double the spell slots

[YuriP]

Not only. Animist also have pretty strong focus spells and still have more spellslots (I still don't like the mix of prepared and spontaneous but in the end it's clearly better than psychic), Channeler's Stance (that IMO still better than Unleash because it doesn't have the first damage limit and doesn't ends nor get stupefied after 2 rounds) and way more versatility, many good feats can use medium armor and casts using wisdom.

I can't see the psychic not even close in terms of power and versatility balance with many other caster class options.

[Tridus]

Unicore wrote:

Those changes to the psychic sound about perfect to me. There is no reason an amped cantrip needed to heighten as well better than the damage for many spell slot spells.

They literally do because they're Psychic's replacement for those missing spell slots AND focus spells.

And in the case of Imaginary Weapon, the Psychic needs to be in melee to use it and that's a 6HP class with no armor proficiency. It's risky for them to get into position to unleash that, so it needs to be good enough to be worth that risk.

Nerfing it on Psychic because it's too strong on Magus is... something.

Looking at the overall changes, I don't see things getting especially better for Psychic, and it was a class that needed some help. Nerfing the dedication is what was needed and they did that, but the class also needs to keep up and it's one of the worst casters in the game right now.

Quote:

This also makes me think that Impossible Magic is going to at least have to have a couple more spell slot spell attack roll spells, because it seems like spellstrike is mostly staying the same.

I doubt we'll see that many new spells in it given the spell count that was advertised. Probably a few. But there's so few spell attack rolls in the game now after the Player Core updates removed some that it would be an odd choice to suddenly turn around and add more in.

I mean, maybe if they fix the lack of item bonuses at the same time?

[Kalaam]

I for one am vindicated, and I actually like that IW is now Force damage, even at the cost a 1 average damage per dice. Though I would have hope for psychic itself to be buffed 'cause it deserved it.

So well who knows what awaits magus, now people will just scream to pick champion and cleric, or sorcerer.

[Unicore]

Imaginary weapon also can hit 2 targets, so it was a major outlier in power for a focus spell option at 2d8 heightening. The tangible dream psychic has a triple shield which can make them plenty tanky for a round. Combined with a redeemer and a wood/water kineticist, it was an incredibly powerful option when I saw it in play. We also now have the guardian and the commander as classes than can help set up those kind of nova attack.

[benwilsher18]

Imaginary Weapon has reportedly been changed to force damage instead of bludgeoning.

Given how force damage spells usually are weaker than equivalent spells dealing other damage types because they bypass nearly every single resistance and immunity in the game, it doing ~3 less damage per spell rank than it used to seems perfectly fair to me. Especially considering that it can hit two targets while other attack roll focus spells generally cannot.

Also consider now that Tangible Dream's Astral Rain focus spell and other amp damage options with a duration like Daze now properly work with Unleash Psyche, and I don't think Psychic overall is in a worse place than it was before.

I do wish they'd gone over the class feats and buffed pretty much all of them though. Most (not all) of the ones that are cool and interesting are still really bad, or so situational that you almost never want to actually use them. I guess the same can be said of most PF2E casters.

[Kitusser]

Unicore wrote:

Those changes to the psychic sound about perfect to me. There is no reason an amped cantrip needed to heighten as well better than the damage for many spell slot spells.

This also makes me think that Impossible Magic is going to at least have to have a couple more spell slot spell attack roll spells, because it seems like spellstrike is mostly staying the same.

There's plenty good reason, like the class only having 2 Spellslots, and the fact the Focus Spell is locked into melee. Now it's literally just a worse version of Flurry of Claws, which is on a class with double the spellslots. Amps are supposed to be more powerful than other focus spells.

The Psychic is easily the worst caster in the game, and these changes don't address that at all. Unleash Psyche is straight up not that good of a feature, and having 2 Spellslots per rank is a really big downside.

[graystone]

Unicore wrote:

Imaginary weapon also can hit 2 targets, so it was a major outlier in power for a focus spell option at 2d8 heightening

So 2 people in melee with a d6 caster without armor is a good thing?

[CaffeinatedNinja]

Seriously hope they do a better and more thorough job with Magus and Summoner than the treatment psychic got.

Particularly as they are in a new book we have to buy, not a remastered version where you get a free pdf if you have the old one.

[exequiel759]

That's the thing. If amps were that strong then keep the archetype version from getting them and/or buff them for full psychics.

There's no need to nerf them for a class that already struggles using them.

[Unicore]

They made it force damage and dropped it one damage die, and it is only one unique cantrip that never worked as a “bread and butter” combat spell (for the psychic). Its adjustment barely affects the psychic at all. If you want to be a blasty psychic you go oscillating wave. Shield is the powerhouse psi cantrip of tangible dream.

[Teridax]

"This change won't really affect the Psychic because the cantrip is already not worth using to them most of the time" is, I would say, not necessarily the best defense of that nerf. I would even go as far as to say that the switch in damage type isn't necessarily a good thing either, given that bludgeoning damage tends to be quite good at triggering certain weaknesses.

[Unicore]

I didn’t say it wasn’t worth using, I am saying it’s not the thing your character is spending all their amps on in most encounters or even necessarily going to use every encounter, which is fairly common with a lot of psychic conscious mind unique surface cantrips.

When two enemies move into position on you, it is just as worth casting now as before, it even works well against ghosts now.

[Teridax]

I didn't say it wasn't worth using, either; I said it wasn't worth using to the Psychic most of the time. When two enemies move into position on you, your priority is still likely going to be to find a means of escaping so that you, a 6 HP/level cloth caster, don't get turned to giblets. Unless you're running some glass cannon Fury Cocktail setup, you are unlikely to want to put yourself in that predicament in the first place, which is why the cantrip is just generally awkward on the Psychic in the same way glutton's jaw was awkward on the Sorcerer before it got changed into a ranged spell attack. I would've been fine with the nerf if the cantrip had been given a similar degree of reach or safety, but instead it is flat-out worse than it was before, so no, it is not quite as worth casting in the remaster as now, and it performs worse against creatures vulnerable to bludgeoning damage such as skeletons.

[Unicore]

Again though, there are very few conscious minds where you go out of your way to use your unique surface cantrip. No one choses to be an Oscilating wave psychic to cast thermal stasis. Nor even the Infinite Eye to spam glimpse weakness more than once an encounter when you are far more interested in using amped guidance as often as possible. Imaginary weapon is not an outlier for being situationally useful and about as good as a spell slot spell in that situation.

[Crouza]

Paizo has the chance to do the funniest thing and give Magus a 2d8 damage focus spell as a feat.

[Squiggit]

I appreciate how hard you're committing to the bit of defending Paizo at all costs here but arguing that unamped IW on a Psychic needed the damage downgrade is basically an impossible sell. There's just no world where this was a good idea. The you probably weren't using it anyways argument as a justification for nerfs is especially wild. Like come on.

The cantrip now does similar damage to its ranged counterparts despite being melee only and that's just kind of goofy.

[exequiel759]

Unicore wrote:

Again though, there are very few conscious minds where you go out of your way to use your unique surface cantrip. No one choses to be an Oscilating wave psychic to cast thermal stasis. Nor even the Infinite Eye to spam glimpse weakness more than once an encounter when you are far more interested in using amped guidance as often as possible. Imaginary weapon is not an outlier for being situationally useful and about as good as a spell slot spell in that situation.

So its our fault for using the cool damage cantrip that conjures swords on a subclass that seemingly assumes you want to do that?

I don't really see how someone could honestly defend this. Its an unnecesary nerf to a class that didn't need it.

[Teridax]

Unicore wrote:

Again though, there are very few conscious minds where you go out of your way to use your unique surface cantrip. No one choses to be an Oscilating wave psychic to cast thermal stasis. Nor even the Infinite Eye to spam glimpse weakness more than once an encounter when you are far more interested in using amped guidance as often as possible. Imaginary weapon is not an outlier for being situationally useful and about as good as a spell slot spell in that situation.

Again, if every surface cantrip is situational at best and weak at worst, that to me suggests that the Psychic could benefit from improvements to those, not to a nerf to the one that did see use elsewhere. The entire purpose of psi cantrips is to offer upgrades to regular cantrips, and pseudo-focus spells that are stronger than other focus spells: as of the remaster, imaginary weapon is straight-up worse than gouging claw, and arguably worse even than the fire ray domain spell or glutton's jaws. With this in mind, I would see even less reason to pick a Psychic post-remaster when even a Cleric or a Sorcerer have more to offer with their focus spells on top of their significant other benefits.

[doortobe]

Crouza wrote:

Paizo has the chance to do the funniest thing and give Magus a 2d8 damage focus spell as a feat.

Congrats you proved that a subclass that is in desperate need of buffs to use its big flashy ability instead got nerfed and youre trying to defend it???

[Unicore]

Squiggit wrote:

I appreciate how hard you're committing to the bit of defending Paizo at all costs here but arguing that unamped IW on a Psychic needed the damage downgrade is basically an impossible sell. There's just no world where this was a good idea. The you probably weren't using it anyways argument as a justification for nerfs is especially wild. Like come on.

The cantrip now does similar damage to its ranged counterparts despite being melee only and that's just kind of goofy.

I don't need to come to Paizo's defense, and I do voice issues where I see them. Are any of the people here coming from experience playing a Tangible Dream Psychic? Because it really doesn't come across that way.

The fantasy of the conscious mind is: "You pull colors and shapes from the depth of your mind, projecting impossible creations into the world as tapestries of astral thread or sculptures of force and light."

It makes way more sense for Imaginary weapon to be force damage than physical damage, and that almost always comes with a bit of downgrade in total damage because nothing resists it. It is far more of a horizontal move than a pure down grade, and I am curious if cantrips like astral rain get a similar treatment in terms of changing damage type.

I am curious to see what the total changes to the Psychic are, because I think the loss of niche in "getting to use focus spells multiple times an encounter and still getting them back" was THE heavy loss of the class in the remaster. I have heard some people say there is nothing obvious replacing that, but I am waiting to see for myself if there isn't some subtle change to the chassis or class.

[Dragonchess Player]

Regarding imaginary weapon and using the multi-classed psychic archetype on a magus: with imaginary weapon getting a slight downgrade and the amp language change to prevent using an amped cantrip to spellstrike, maybe force fang will get a slight upgrade?

Or maybe just expand the "hybrid study neutral" available feats that provide additional conflux spells to provide more ways for a magus to contribute in a magical fashion while recharging their spellstrike. Granted, that probably won't satisfy the "must use spellstrike every round" crowd.

[Crouza]

doortobe wrote:

Crouza wrote:

Paizo has the chance to do the funniest thing and give Magus a 2d8 damage focus spell as a feat.

Congrats you proved that a subclass that is in desperate need of buffs to use its big flashy ability instead got nerfed and youre trying to defend it???

Im just here to discuss impossible magic. Dark Archive is the other thread. And also, it would be incredibly funny.

[doortobe]

Crouza wrote:

doortobe wrote:

Crouza wrote:

Paizo has the chance to do the funniest thing and give Magus a 2d8 damage focus spell as a feat.

Congrats you proved that a subclass that is in desperate need of buffs to use its big flashy ability instead got nerfed and youre trying to defend it???

Im just here to discuss impossible magic. Dark Archive is the other thread. And also, it would be incredibly funny.

I meant to reply to someone else in this thread my bad

[Crouza]

doortobe wrote:

Crouza wrote:

doortobe wrote:

Crouza wrote:

Paizo has the chance to do the funniest thing and give Magus a 2d8 damage focus spell as a feat.

Congrats you proved that a subclass that is in desperate need of buffs to use its big flashy ability instead got nerfed and youre trying to defend it???

Im just here to discuss impossible magic. Dark Archive is the other thread. And also, it would be incredibly funny.

I meant to reply to someone else in this thread my bad

No worries. For what it's worth, I do find it a shame that Psychic took some hits to Imaginary Weapon. But I'm an Oscillating Wave guy, so I don't got as much skin in that particular game.

All I want is just making Arcane Cascade something you proc on initiative similar to barbarian rage, and whose damage type can change when you cast a spell. It's the only part of magus that, for me, feels pretty hard to use with all the other actions you juggle.

[exequiel759]

Unicore wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

I appreciate how hard you're committing to the bit of defending Paizo at all costs here but arguing that unamped IW on a Psychic needed the damage downgrade is basically an impossible sell. There's just no world where this was a good idea. The you probably weren't using it anyways argument as a justification for nerfs is especially wild. Like come on.

The cantrip now does similar damage to its ranged counterparts despite being melee only and that's just kind of goofy.

I don't need to come to Paizo's defense, and I do voice issues where I see them. Are any of the people here coming from experience playing a Tangible Dream Psychic? Because it really doesn't come across that way.

The fantasy of the conscious mind is: "You pull colors and shapes from the depth of your mind, projecting impossible creations into the world as tapestries of astral thread or sculptures of force and light."

It makes way more sense for Imaginary weapon to be force damage than physical damage, and that almost always comes with a bit of downgrade in total damage because nothing resists it. It is far more of a horizontal move than a pure down grade, and I am curious if cantrips like astral rain get a similar treatment in terms of changing damage type.

I am curious to see what the total changes to the Psychic are, because I think the loss of niche in "getting to use focus spells multiple times an encounter and still getting them back" was THE heavy loss of the class in the remaster. I have heard some people say there is nothing obvious replacing that, but I am waiting to see for myself if there isn't some subtle change to the chassis or class.

Compare amped imaginary weapon with flurry of claws. Both do the same average damage now (2d6 vs. 1d8 and 1d4) except the later has a 30 feet range and (kinda) has flexible damage type based on your tradition (force, spirit, mental, or fire; all damage types which aren't normally resisted except for fire).

The sorcerer has access to this focus spell while having 4 spell slots, a passive +1 to damage per rank, a flexible spell tradition, and access to a fantastic feat list. Meanwhile, the psychic has half the spell slots, its damage steroid requires 1 round of set up and lasts for 2 rounds (plus stupefied afterwards), and it has a bad feat list.

Why the class that supposedly relies the most on its focus spells has weaker focus spells than the casters that weren't nerfed to get them?

[Unicore]

Flurry of claws doesn’t do double damage on a crit nor push foes back 10ft.

[Kalaam]

Doesn't it do double on a hit ? isn't that kind of the basic rule ? It'd be weird for it not to have an effect on a critical hit

[Unicore]

Strikes do double damage on a crit. Spells do what they say they do on the tiers of success that they do them on. There are a number of funky spells that do different things.

[Kalaam]

It feels like an oversight for Flurry of Claw not to do anything.

[Tridus]

Crouza wrote:

No worries. For what it's worth, I do find it a shame that Psychic took some hits to Imaginary Weapon. But I'm an Oscillating Wave guy, so I don't got as much skin in that particular game.

All I want is just making Arcane Cascade something you proc on initiative similar to barbarian rage, and whose damage type can change when you cast a spell. It's the only part of magus that, for me, feels pretty hard to use with all the other actions you juggle.

Or make it a free action activate after you spellstrike/cast a spell. It would help with action economy on a class that really needs it.

[Unicore]

Kalaam wrote:

It feels like an oversight for Flurry of Claw not to do anything.

It could be, it could also be a limit on an otherwise pretty powerful focus spell that hits 2 targets.

[Kitusser]

Unicore wrote:

They made it force damage and dropped it one damage die, and it is only one unique cantrip that never worked as a “bread and butter” combat spell (for the psychic). Its adjustment barely affects the psychic at all. If you want to be a blasty psychic you go oscillating wave. Shield is the powerhouse psi cantrip of tangible dream.

How does making it Force damage make up for the damage loss?

Not sure what the argument of it barely affecting the entire Psychic class is supposed to mean. That doesn't change that it's an unnecessary nerf and affects the people choosing that subclass or focus spell. That's like saying removing the bloodmagic effect from Elemental Bloodline "barely affects the Sorcerer at all".

[Kitusser]

Unicore wrote:

Kalaam wrote:

It feels like an oversight for Flurry of Claw not to do anything.

It could be, it could also be a limit on an otherwise pretty powerful focus spell that hits 2 targets.

Doubtful. Is there any other spell attack in the game that works this way? The focus spell is far from overpowered, it not having a critical success effect definitely seems like an oversight and goes against core ideas of the system.

[BotBrain]

Kitusser wrote:

Unicore wrote:

They made it force damage and dropped it one damage die, and it is only one unique cantrip that never worked as a “bread and butter” combat spell (for the psychic). Its adjustment barely affects the psychic at all. If you want to be a blasty psychic you go oscillating wave. Shield is the powerhouse psi cantrip of tangible dream.

How does making it Force damage make up for the damage loss?

I don't nessercarily agree with dropping the damage but force damage is just not resisted by 99% of creatures, which is why force options tend to have decreased damage.

[Unicore]

there is precedent for spell attack role spells not doing standard double damage on a crit. Polar ray did not double at all, it just had a different effect. Hydraulic Push does not double on a crit except at first level.

[BotBrain]

I'm looking at Polar Ray and Hydraulic Push right now and they both double on a crit?

One example that doesn't is vindicator's mark, but it oddly doesn't have the attack trait so something funky is going on there.

[Unicore]

maybe I am misremembering about polar ray, although I think it might have been errata'd at some point, but Hydraulic Push at rank 2 does 5d6 on a success and 8d6 on a crit. it is only double at rank 1.

And Disintegrate doesn't do double damage on a crit.

Minimally, Flurry of claws RAW does not double on a crit and would need errata to do so.

It is also possible that a focus spell that is being presented as universally superior to the new imaginary weapon might not be.

[aouar]

Considering class balance, magi should be appropriately nerfed.Taking both fun factor and power level into account, perhaps reverting the magus to its playtest version would be a good option.

[Tridus]

Unicore wrote:

And Disintegrate doesn't do double damage on a crit.

Yes it does, but it does it in a weird way. A critical hit reduces the degree of success on the fort save, which is what actually determines the damage. Crit failing the fort save does double damage since its a basic save.

Sticky Fire is an example of a spell that doesn't increase damage on a crit.

There are some with saves IIRC that also have stuff like that happen where the damage doesn't scale up consistently between success outcomes (like Wail of the Damned doing the same damage on success or failure, but failure adds drained).

Quote:

maybe I am misremembering about polar ray, although I think it might have been errata'd at some point, but Hydraulic Push at rank 2 does 5d6 on a success and 8d6 on a crit. it is only double at rank 1.

Polar Ray did double damage on a crit, but the same drained as on a hit. So it didn't fully double.

[Unicore]

Tridus wrote:

Polar Ray did double damage on a crit, but the same drained as on a hit. So it didn't fully double.

It didn’t upon first release, but was addressed in one of the first errata passes.

I am not sure if Flurry of claws is a similar accident or an intentional limit. It certainly is a big limiter though. Not getting something on a crit is very limiting for how good spell attack roll spells can be. Were it not for the fact that they seem to be dialing down other focus spells I’d probably have guessed it was an accident. But elemental toss would be pretty bad in comparison (one action is of course great, but d4 less damage per rank and one less target is quite a lot worse).