My players just finished chapter 1 of "Let the Leaves Fall", and they are complaining about how poor they are and how they did all this work in town and didn't get paid.
My counter has been that this is your town, and not everything is done for pay. If the town is destroyed, you die too. I also pointed out they can sell loot they have found if they need money. So, I'm not sure it's a money issue.
Am I being too strict? Should they are paid for their work to some degree? 1 GP a task, at least?
Thanks.
Are you using the earn income table? If they are using the right skills then they should already be able to make 1GP per day, with months of downtime that adds up quickly.
Not sure what they are expecting if they don't want to sell stuff.
You can also reassure them that they will have a more traditional dungeon experience soon (the monastery), that should give them some more loot.
I think its the more "doing stuff for free". There is too much of a mercenary mentality as opposed to a community mentality. I'll set them straight next session.
I don't know what they expect. They aren't mercenaries who are there for fame and glory. They are just people who are trying to defend their home town, right?
Additionally, the town simply doesn't have large amounts of money!
And since y'all are entering winter now, there is the whole theme around resource scarcity and a literal danger that some people might die of starvation, if there's just not enough food.
If they still want "rewards" then I'd suggest adding some items that have high monetary value but no functional use to the party and let them sell those to Shinzo. Things like art objects that can be found somewhere where it makes sense, or perhaps magic items that are useful mostly for classes that aren't in the party? Just an idea.
Idea.
If they insist on rewards beyond what the adventure offers, and they do so also in-character, have the grateful NPC hesitate and then pay them, then also deduct a preparation point and some reputation by the end of the session because the town is losing more wealth than it can afford. Later add a short scene showing the grateful NPC more destitute than before, still thankful but definitely worse off.
Creative Director
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All of our Adventure Paths tend to aim to 150% to 200% of the treasure values listed in the GM Core. The ones I do, in fact, skew toward 200%. This is to account for the fact that not every party will find every bit of treasure, realize every bit of treasure is worth keeping, might sell or break or give away some treasure, and so on.
It's also worth noting that these numbers assume the 4 PC standard. If you have more than 4 PCs in your game, you need to increase the treasure they can find beyond the assumptions we publish in an adventure, in the same way you'll need to increase the challenges for the fights (which also assume 4 PCs).
If they're getting plenty of treasure and are at or above the expected wealth levels noted in GM Core, and the concern is they're just uncomfortable being local heroes who aren't paid for their heroics (other than via the various methods the adventure already gives out treasure), then yeah, that's a talk you'll need to have with your group and/or adjust to make things more fun for your game.
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Thanks and goodwill only go so far, especially when being a one way thing, gratitude won't put food on the table most of the time.
There is also the risk vs reward part, if doing something cost more resources for the PCs than they get in return, they might be bothered by this. Part of this might be bad luck with dice rolls.
It can also be useful to tell the players ahead of time that they are expected to spend a lot of resources, and as a GM to remember they will need said resources.
There is also a possibility that this AP simply isn't for them.
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Thanks and goodwill only go so far, especially when being a one way thing, gratitude won't put food on the table most of the time.
Well that's... that's actually kind of exactly how it worked in premodern villages and small towns. I get what you're saying, but as it happens, the network of gratitude and reciprocity is what put food on the table when you had a bad harvest. You banqueted your neighbours when you had surplus and they returned the favour.
This famously made it hard to extract surplus (in the form of taxes etc) because for a farmer, there was little use in selling your food for money that would not feed you down the line (the food will be much more expensive when you need it than when you had too much) when you could be making sure your neighbours are fed and grateful to you.
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To be clear, by the end of Chapter 1, you mean they have not yet ousted the threat from the town? Or perhaps they've cleared to the end of Chapter 2? It seems like these players don't yet know the gravity of their situation, but if you wanted to assuage their concerns, perhaps you could issue some monetary reward--although presumably doing that would be the job of the mayor/governor, who they will not have presently found.
If you choose to give out a reward you can always take it from some treasure cache or another. As James above said, there should be close to double the expected wealth by level in the adventure--if they'd be happier pulling some of it from some kind of town fund, that's possible to arrange.
Even so, every other review for SoG I've read has recommended that you make sure your players care about the town. It's kind of a big aspect of the story and one of the biggest draws of the adventure.
I personally would want to stress to my players that they are not mercenaries but townsfolk. They are defending their own homes, friends, and family, not doing a job for someone else. The town might reward them, but the town is still full of other people who are also defending their homes and livelihoods--there's a limited amount of money they can just give up to heroes in the first place and the rest of their material wealth is going to be food they need to eat and tools they need to work.
Idea.
If they insist on rewards beyond what the adventure offers, and they do so also in-character, have the grateful NPC hesitate and then pay them, then also deduct a preparation point and some reputation by the end of the session because the town is losing more wealth than it can afford. Later add a short scene showing the grateful NPC more destitute than before, still thankful but definitely worse off.
I think I will do this exactly the next time it comes up. Thanks.
It's also worth noting that these numbers assume the 4 PC standard. If you have more than 4 PCs in your game, you need to increase the treasure they can find beyond the assumptions we publish in an adventure, in the same way you'll need to increase the challenges for the fights (which also assume 4 PCs).
They are under-equipped, actually ( I did an audit), and there are 5 players. So I will add loot during chapter two to make up the difference. So maybe that is the issue, but I think it's a "heart issue" - they are used to 5e where gold is meaningless, and most adventures revolved around mercenary-style work. Which is fine, but SoG is a bit of a change of pace.
I'll make sure to add more loot but also make it clear (again) they ain't getting rich playing this AP and if the town dies, so do they. There isn't anywhere to go.
To be clear, by the end of Chapter 1, you mean they have not yet ousted the threat from the town? Or perhaps they've cleared to the end of Chapter 2?
There is no threat in the town in Chapter 1, and it's about preparing the town. It's week 10, and they just started the Pilgrims Path.
Thanks everyone for the feedback. I think this is a great AP as its a bit different to "save the world" type adventures.
My bad! I should have read the title more carefully.
My bad! I should have read the title more carefully.
All good :)
Thanks and goodwill only go so far, especially when being a one way thing, gratitude won't put food on the table most of the time.Well that's... that's actually kind of exactly how it worked in premodern villages and small towns. I get what you're saying, but as it happens, the network of gratitude and reciprocity is what put food on the table when you had a bad harvest. You banqueted your neighbours when you had surplus and they returned the favour.
Yeah, but in most RPGs, reciprocity isn't always there.
Can be a problem if the PCs are paid in thanks, but have to pay stuff in money, granted, non-monetary rewards could also be used. Barter is something else than just gratitude.
Thanks and goodwill only go so far, especially when being a one way thing, gratitude won't put food on the table most of the time.Well that's... that's actually kind of exactly how it worked in premodern villages and small towns. I get what you're saying, but as it happens, the network of gratitude and reciprocity is what put food on the table when you had a bad harvest. You banqueted your neighbours when you had surplus and they returned the favour.Yeah, but in most RPGs, reciprocity isn't always there.
Can be a problem if the PCs are paid in thanks, but have to pay stuff in money, granted, non-monetary rewards could also be used. Barter is something else than just gratitude.
I get what you are saying, but none of the activities (like getting crops, fixing the teahouse, etc.) cost the PCs anything. The most anything costs the PCs is if they want to be a 4gp or 40gp teaset - which the inventor they have in the party can actually make. And even this is optional.
I get what you are saying, but none of the activities (like getting crops, fixing the teahouse, etc.) cost the PCs anything. The most anything costs the PCs is if they want to be a 4gp or 40gp teaset - which the inventor they have in the party can actually make. And even this is optional.Thanks and goodwill only go so far, especially when being a one way thing, gratitude won't put food on the table most of the time.Well that's... that's actually kind of exactly how it worked in premodern villages and small towns. I get what you're saying, but as it happens, the network of gratitude and reciprocity is what put food on the table when you had a bad harvest. You banqueted your neighbours when you had surplus and they returned the favour.Yeah, but in most RPGs, reciprocity isn't always there.
Can be a problem if the PCs are paid in thanks, but have to pay stuff in money, granted, non-monetary rewards could also be used. Barter is something else than just gratitude.
Not the part I was thinking about in that particular post, was more talking about buying things; food, healing, spellcasting, other services... so if they are paid in thanks, but they have to pay with money.
Also, it can be useful to be open about the whole "resources" thing this AP has with the players.
Yeah I told them they wont be making bank, as its not that kind of AP. If they want loot, they need to deal with the supernatural problems, not try and get it from the townsfolk.
You're not having them earn income every week?
Even without earning income, my party (I'm the GM) has more than WBL tables suggest anyway. I did find Quest for the Frozen Flame to be lacking, but that was more about the type of AP it is (survival, really).
I did suggest they earn income, but all but 1 pc scoffed at the idea. /shrug.
You're not having them earn income every week?
Even without earning income, my party (I'm the GM) has more than WBL tables suggest anyway. I did find Quest for the Frozen Flame to be lacking, but that was more about the type of AP it is (survival, really).
There are APs where rolls can wildly influence wealth.
I did suggest they earn income, but all but 1 pc scoffed at the idea. /shrug.
More and more it sounds like the AP simply isn't for them.
Edit: reading some of your other posts/threads, their issues could be with PF2e.
I did suggest they earn income, but all but 1 pc scoffed at the idea. /shrug.
That's literally baked into the chapter - one preparation activity and one regular downtime activity per week. A simple roll, once per week. I think Souls at War has pegged the issue.