They're all ranged spell attacks: Winter Bolt, Charged Javelin, Bottle the Storm.
They're all ranged spell attacks: Winter Bolt, Charged Javelin, Bottle the Storm.
Oh, I missed the domain spells detail. I don't feel like that matters because your revelation spells are saves.
Can raging Barbarians now use Oracle cursebound feats via the archetype? Most of them don't seem to have concentrate. Is that right?
Can raging Barbarians now use Oracle cursebound feats via the archetype? Most of them don't seem to have concentrate. Is that right?
Seems that way, but I'm not sure what the most useful thing you can do with this fact is. While like a charhide goblin barbarian with the flames curse getting the 10th level cursebound feat seems fun, you're never going to be able to manage cursebound 3 or 4. A dual-class oracle/barbarian doesn't seem like a good idea, honestly.
So the most useful thing I can think to do with this on a barbarian is to grab like nudge the scales for self-healing and that 4th level feat for the "better at hitting invisible things" panic button.
Or get double clumsy
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Or get double clumsy
Yeah, that’s where I went with it. Giant Instinct Barbarian that ignores the curse effect from Ancestors. A version of Rage Prophet definitely seems more workable now, especially since the moderate curse/cursebound 2 no longer gives flat-footed from the dedication. (EDIT: Triple clumsy, even, once they can be large).
I’m also kinda wondering if a Barbarian could make a good Life Oracle replacement. Probably not enough spells using the dedication, but 12 HPs/level for life link. I think that would probably be best with free archetype, so you can take all the spell feats, but still do some Barbarian things.
Oh, I missed the domain spells detail. I don't feel like that matters because your revelation spells are saves.
My comment was not a general statement about attack vs save spells, but specifically a reply to SuperBidi about the Tempest Oracle, which has a curse penalizing ranged attacks yet all of its new domain spells are ranged attacks.
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Oh, I missed the domain spells detail. I don't feel like that matters because your revelation spells are saves.My comment was not a general statement about attack vs save spells, but specifically a reply to SuperBidi about the Tempest Oracle, which has a curse penalizing ranged attacks yet all of its new domain spells are ranged attacks.
When you have a Curse penalizing attack spells you don't take attack spells so your Curse no more penalizes you.
Domain spells have never been good anyway, Oracle Focus Spells are the ones you use.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
When you have a Curse penalizing attack spells you don't take attack spells so your Curse no more penalizes you.
Domain spells have never been good anyway, Oracle Focus Spells are the ones you use.
That's no excuse for designing contradictory class features, giving Tempest Oracles a new curse that penalizes the very new domains you give them at the same time.
I honestly don't understand your point. Ofc you can always just take the mechanically viable options as a player, but what's the point in telling people this when they're criticizing the bad stuff? We know that you can just avoid the bad features, but we'd like to have Paizo make it useful instead of avoiding them.
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"Just blend away the bad Wizard school spells."
Lol, Oracle Curses are the New Wizard! Grrrrrreeeeeeaaaaaaat! Anyways I don't see why you'd be an Oracle over Sorcerer other then the higher hit points and slightly higher AC starting out but is 40 hit points over the course of 20 levels Really that powerful though?
There are many reasons.
If you want to do a spontaneous divine caster and the blood magic and focus spells of divine sorcerers doesn't worth for you and/or you want to use some of the oracle's focus spells, cursebound feats or domains spells oracles are a good option for you.
The light armor and 8 HP is more like a bonus. Another good thing that oracles will give to you.
The new oracles are good. They loose much of their flavor when compared to the old ones but they are still good. They have a pretty set of good feats too. Like the cursebound feat that automatically gives you all weakness, the lower save and +2 to attack a target automatically without need to do any check.
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Wow. Battle Oracle just took the trophy for the most unplayable class combination in the game. Who thought that curse was a good idea in a game where you face more and more powerful magic as you level. Battle Oracle is a form of self-torture.
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As far as I know, spell attack rolls aren't ranged attack rolls. Tempest Oracle should be ok in that regard.
Wow. Battle Oracle just took the trophy for the most unplayable class combination in the game. Who thought that curse was a good idea in a game where you face more and more powerful magic as you level. Battle Oracle is a form of self-torture.
I want to try it even more now, just to see how it actually performs during play.
Wow. Battle Oracle just took the trophy for the most unplayable class combination in the game. Who thought that curse was a good idea in a game where you face more and more powerful magic as you level. Battle Oracle is a form of self-torture.I want to try it even more now, just to see how it actually performs during play.
Give it a shot. Oracle is the new witch. My goodness, those cursebound feats don't make it appealing with the effects of the curse being so bad on so many of those.
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Give it a shot. Oracle is the new witch. My goodness, those cursebound feats don't make it appealing with the effects of the curse being so bad on so many of those.Wow. Battle Oracle just took the trophy for the most unplayable class combination in the game. Who thought that curse was a good idea in a game where you face more and more powerful magic as you level. Battle Oracle is a form of self-torture.I want to try it even more now, just to see how it actually performs during play.
It's pretty wild how the curses at cursebound 4 range from "you basically can't function/can barely be healed/will be crit into last year" to "you are taking a trivial amount of damage/irrelevant unless someone is trying to Shove you".
I think the oracle is the lone class where my opinion of it was lowered by the remaster. Everybody else got better or mostly stayed the same.
Oh well, there's lots of other classes to play.
I just downloaded my pdf, physical is still on the way so I havnt had time to look at this but isnt it set up so you choose the mystery that defines what each level of curse does to you, but you get to mix and match curse bound feats to get whatever benefit you want to trade off for the level of curse it puts you at?
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I think the oracle is the lone class where my opinion of it was lowered by the remaster. Everybody else got better or mostly stayed the same.
Oh well, there's lots of other classes to play.
Champion got worse. Not by a lot but the changes I noticed all make it worse, at least for what used to be the Good Champs
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I just downloaded my pdf, physical is still on the way so I havnt had time to look at this but isnt it set up so you choose the mystery that defines what each level of curse does to you, but you get to mix and match curse bound feats to get whatever benefit you want to trade off for the level of curse it puts you at?
You do, but:
1. Some of those feats are mystery locked to 2 mysteries.2. There aren't that many of them that actually interact with your curse itself, as opposed to "you do a thing and your cursebound goes up."
3. Some of the above are pretty cool (Conduit of Void and Vitality, Whispers of Weakness), while some of them are just odd. Oracular Warning has effects at Cursebound 2 and 3 when cast, but that means you're going into a fight already at Cursebound 3 or 4 on round 1, which isn't really the best of ideas unless you have a trivial curse and no other cursebound abilities you want to use.
4. Some of them were things that used to be done another way Debilitating Dichotomy is Cursebound now but was a focus spell. Water Walking used to be baked in Cosmos thing and kinda makes no sense at all why a Bones Oracle water walks while cursed. Some of them got worse really, like Blaze of Revelation now requires you to be Cursebound 4 to use it and also out of Focus points before it actually does anything.
5. The curse effects are so imbalanced that for some curses you can just spam Cursebound all you want while for others it's exceedingly problematic or downright dangerous to do that.
There's definitely stuff you can do with this to make a character, and overall some mysteries will work just fine. Some of them got hit HARD (Life and Battle are huge downgrades). It's the flavor loss that hurts me the most, as the mysteries are a lot more generic than they used to be.
I just downloaded my pdf, physical is still on the way so I havnt had time to look at this but isnt it set up so you choose the mystery that defines what each level of curse does to you, but you get to mix and match curse bound feats to get whatever benefit you want to trade off for the level of curse it puts you at?You do, but:
1. Some of those feats are mystery locked to 2 mysteries.
2. There aren't that many of them that actually interact with your curse itself, as opposed to "you do a thing and your cursebound goes up."
3. Some of the above are pretty cool (Conduit of Void and Vitality, Whispers of Weakness), while some of them are just odd. Oracular Warning has effects at Cursebound 2 and 3 when cast, but that means you're going into a fight already at Cursebound 3 or 4 on round 1, which isn't really the best of ideas unless you have a trivial curse and no other cursebound abilities you want to use.
4. Some of them were things that used to be done another way Debilitating Dichotomy is Cursebound now but was a focus spell. Water Walking used to be baked in Cosmos thing and kinda makes no sense at all why a Bones Oracle water walks while cursed. Some of them got worse really, like Blaze of Revelation now requires you to be Cursebound 4 to use it and also out of Focus points before it actually does anything.
5. The curse effects are so imbalanced that for some curses you can just spam Cursebound all you want while for others it's exceedingly problematic or downright dangerous to do that.There's definitely stuff you can do with this to make a character, and overall some mysteries will work just fine. Some of them got hit HARD (Life and Battle are huge downgrades). It's the flavor loss that hurts me the most, as the mysteries are a lot more generic than they used to be.
Oh ok so if they are staying a 4 slot caster it might make sense that some of their power was shifted away from the mystery and into extra slots.
Champion got worse. Not by a lot but the changes I noticed all make it worse, at least for what used to be the Good ChampsI think the oracle is the lone class where my opinion of it was lowered by the remaster. Everybody else got better or mostly stayed the same.
Oh well, there's lots of other classes to play.
Care to elaborate? As a longtime champion player with one at 19th-level, I'm very interested in knowin'.
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Oh ok so if they are staying a 4 slot caster it might make sense that some of their power was shifted away from the mystery and into extra slots.
Maybe... but then why not just play Sorcerer? It feels like a band-aid of "oh this isn't turning out very well, add slots to buff the class", which if it was a last minute change would explain why the class description and the class table don't agree on the number.
Despite its issues, the mystery and curse interactions is really the point of Oracle. Reducing that and giving more spell slots is fine power wise. If anything, the class is stronger in some cases. But it absolutely guts the flavor and narrative feel of the class, and a couple of things you used to be able to do just flat out don't work properly now.
I feel like if you're not playing an Oracle right now and are just coming in wanting to build a character and avoid the really harsh curses, you'll get an effective, fun character. If you want to use the really painful curses or you already have an Oracle that was severely impacted by this, you're gonna have a bad time. And that makes me sad, since this was the rework I was most looking forward to and it looks like easily the worst one in the Remaster.
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Care to elaborate? As a longtime champion player with one at 19th-level, I'm very interested in knowin'.Champion got worse. Not by a lot but the changes I noticed all make it worse, at least for what used to be the Good ChampsI think the oracle is the lone class where my opinion of it was lowered by the remaster. Everybody else got better or mostly stayed the same.
Oh well, there's lots of other classes to play.
Blade Ally (now Blessing of Armament) got a nerf I haven’t seen anyone mention. Blade Ally used to give you the effect of the rune. Now Armament gives the weapon the rune. That means it won’t stack with an existing rune on the weapon past the limit of the fundamental runes. This hurt my thrown weapon switch-hitter build, because I can no longer have a returning rune and keep up with everyone else in terms of the damaging runes.
The Shield Ally equivalent lowered the bonus you get to one shield from 2 hardness and half again hit points in favor of letting you apply the reinforcing rune to multiple shields, or get +1 hardness if it’s already a sturdy shield.
Beyond that, I’m not sure. Some of the feats look like improvements. Defensive Advance is a great take on Sudden Charge for a defensive class.
Okay6, so which Curse is the least Painful to use now?In rough order the best curses are
Flames - just make sure you have plenty of healing available and you can just ignore the damage. It is typically 1-2 points per round and worse case of 4.
Life - make sure you have non magical healing available ie Battle Medicine and alchemical healing. That is not hard to get.
Cosmos - just build a ranged character that doesn't care for Strength and doesn't need to be in melee. Trivial.Then you probably want to limit how much you use your cursebound powers versus certain opponents
Tempest - don't push this curse if you are up against electrical attacks, and don't make ranged attacks (ie stick to save based for your offensive magic)
Bones - don't push this curse if you are up against undead or enemies that target your fortitude defense.
Lore - don't push this curse if you are up against enemies that target your will defense
Battle - don't push this curse if you are up against blasters and casters in general.The worst is likely
Ancestors - clumsy is harsh in both melee and ranged as you need AC and Reflex defense so this is going to be the hardest to cope with. My suggestion would be to rely on concealment and hidden effects as they will still work with this curse. Get Invisibility from somewhereThe first 4 are pretty easy, the last 2 are hard.
In regards to Tempest, I'm pretty sure "Ranged Attacks" are seperate from "Spell Attacks" within the rules.
Take a look at the rules for Attack Rolls, it states "Ranged attack roll result = d20 roll + Dexterity modifier + proficiency bonus + other bonuses + penalties"(https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2187). Whereas Spell Attack is specifically separate in the rules and is defined as "Spell attack roll result = d20 roll + spellcasting attribute modifier + proficiency bonus + other bonuses + penalties" (https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2292).
Spell Attacks should be safe from the curse.
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There are spells in the book that talk about ranged spell attack rolls, eg Ignition in Player Core. It also uses talks about melee spell attacks.
Yes the rules section on attacks says melee, ranged, then spell attacks. So I get where you are coming from. But the wording "Ranged Attacks" and "Spell Attacks" are not capitalised or defined as specific terms. So I feel the better approach is to follow Paizo's instruction and read them like natural language.
If you ask me if a ranged spell attack is a ranged attack I'm always going to say yes. So IMO the penalty should apply. Until such time as we hear otherwise.
There are spells in the book that talk about ranged spell attack rolls, eg Ignition in Player Core. It also uses talks about melee spell attacks.
Yes the rules section on attacks says melee, ranged, then spell attacks. So I get where you are coming from. But the wording "Ranged Attacks" and "Spell Attacks" are not capitalised or defined as specific terms. So I feel the better approach is to follow Paizo's instruction and read them like natural language.
If you ask me if a ranged spell attack is a ranged attack I'm always going to say yes. So IMO the penalty should apply. Until such time as we hear otherwise.
This probably needs some clarification to avoid confusion. Usually this system operates under keywords.
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No one's actually gone into detail here, so. TL;DR for the following post: there's a few potentially underwhelming things but yes, they're largely worth it.
1 Foretell Harm (starting feat for Flames/Tempest): free action 1/round, previous non-cantrip damage spell's target takes 2*spell rank damage of the same type on their next turn, then is immune 24 hours. It's not an astoundingly impactful amount in a vacuum, but it can retrigger weaknesses, has no save, and takes no extra action economy. If the PFS clarifications have input from the designers, it's supposed to work on all targets of an AoE, which would also magnify it quite a bit. Helpful to have and use either way, worthwhile enough for all but the most extreme curses (and by that I mostly mean Ancestors unless they can get some safety), though other Cursebounds may outshine it in their use cases.
1 Nudge the Scales (starting feat for Life/Bones): one action to heal 2+double your level to a target in 30 feet. It's Restore the Mind with no immunity, requirement or buff usage. Works on undead or living, but doesn't benefit from buffs to vitality or void healing effects since it's neither. Also has a weird passive side benefit for Bones's sake to let you choose whether you have vitality or void healing (the class could've used more of these!). Overall, it's a decent emergency heal and 3rd action thingy, with a value roughly equal to two-thirds a Lay on Hands but at range, and that's certainly worth the cost of most curses.
1 Oracular Warning (starting feat for Battle/Cosmos): not to be confused with the old Lv 10 feat of the same name, this is pretty much Battle's former Call to Arms spell, a free action on initiative to give all allies in 20 feet +2 status to initiative and half your level in temp HP. Bonus increases to +3/+4 if you use it at Cursebound 2/3, which...is potentially ill-advised unless this is your only Cursebound forever. I've heard some people really gas this one up, initiative bonuses being a bit of a YMMV like so many other things; the higher bonuses are largely irrelevant, but it's pretty much always nice to have at a minimum. (Stacks with Scout and similar as well.)
1 Whispers of Weakness: if you liked Vision of Weakness, this is that at Lv 1 instead of 4 (with an added explicit range of 60 feet), and most people like learning weaknesses and lowest saves without a check before being given a +2 status to the next attack (and a pat on the head and a compliment). Quite useful for most anyone, with how much guesswork it can take out of fights!
2 Meddling Futures: rework of the old Ancestors curse, now a free action to have your next action soft-dictated (DC 6 to do something else) and get a bonus: +1/+2 status to attack/damage on the Strike (+6 damage if Cursebound 3), +1 status to the skill check (C3 makes it +2), status bonus equal to the spell rank on its damage or healing (+3 if C3), or +10 staus Speed for your movement (+20 if C3). Overall...it's divisive, I've heard most people balk at it but also heard arguments for it being improved since you can choose to use it when your turn/action isn't super critical. For my part, I'm just sad you can't keep it up as a duration, the loss of the choose-your-buff outcome in favor of a niche movement/speed buff case is unfortunate, and few of the bonuses are that impactful for the Cursebound they cost, unless your curse does basically nothing. Which certainly doesn't apply to Ancestors who probably has the worst time trying to use it, tragically.
4 Knowledge of Shapes: that's right, it goes in the square hole! If you have Reach/Widen Spell you can use it as a free action, little else to say. Saving an action can always be nice for safer/more impactful turns, but I wish that it didn't require you to actually have the feat(s) on this slightly more feat-reliant class, or that it could work with other Oracle spellshapes too.
4 Thousand Visions: former Flames thing, this is a free action to make your senses imprecise beyond 30 feet, and within 30 feet, prevent you from having to make flat checks to target concealed things, reduce your DC to target hidden to 5, and keep you from being off-guard to hidden. This lasts for a minute! You don't always run into this but it can be nice to have in one's back pocket, especially for occasions in cramped areas where there's pretty much no extra downside, and the total lack of action needed along with the duration is very nice.
8 Debilitating Dichotomy: they couldn't keep the GOAT down by backing up its scaling a level...though they also didn't have to do that, there's lots of spell-like feats that scale on odd levels. ~w~; In any case, two actions to force yourself and a target within 30 feet to take 9d6 mental with a basic Will save, target's stunned 1 if it crit fails and you take one degree better than you rolled (plus Oracles have some of the best Will progression in the game). Scales by 3d6 at Lv 10 and every two levels after. It's quite strong and can advance battles faster, especially after some heightening, but not every character will care about/for the damage or be able to spare the curse. Still great for most, and broadly worth its progression.
10 Roll the Bones of Fate (Bones/Lore only): one action 1/10 minutes to get one of four results: you or an ally in 30 feet roll twice and take higher on the next attack roll or skill check, enemy within 30 feet must succeed on Will or roll twice and take lower on the same, both previous effects happen, or all creatures in 30 feet roll twice and take either higher or lower depending on the higher number being even or odd. This is mostly all-upside, unlike Meddling Futures, and you'd need quite a bit of bad luck to have multiple allies reroll to lower and enemies reroll to higher (though that can happen). The effects are fairly potent and generically useful, so I think it's worth the Bones/Lore curses in most cases...though I wonder what either of those mysteries really have to do with this theming.
10 The Dead Walk (Ancestors/Battle only): two actions, two spirits appear that can grant flanking for a round appear within 30 feet and make one Strike each against an enemy adjacent to them, using your spell attack and dealing 4d6 damage (presumably their MAPs are separate). Using it at C2/C3 summons three/four spirits instead, but the Strike damage doesn't scale. Against one enemy, 8d6 and soon the chance at 12d6 ain't bad at all at Lv 10/11, but the descaling does eventually hurt it some and it doesn't do as well against multiple enemies, though free flanking is nice and the flavor's good. Not sure how well it holds up at those mythical lategame levels, but it's solidly worthwhile for at least a large chunk of the remaining gametime when you get it, I believe...at least for Battle. I imagine Ancestors really really doesn't want to reach Clumsy 3/4 just to scale this thing.
10 Trial By Skyfire (Cosmos/Flames only): another old Flames curse thing, this being one action to cause 2d6 fire on a basic Reflex save to all creatures (including you) in a 10 foot emanation each round, for a minute. Can be suppressed by Sustaining, and if you're at or reach C3 the range increases to 15 feet as the damage doubles to 4d6. It's...not especially appetizing in general cases, unlike Dichotomy, Oracle Reflex is poor and the range and damage are both low, exposing them to danger to use it on enemies. It can potentially hit fire/area weaknesses multiple times with no further action cost, which is nice I suppose, and both the Cosmos and Flames curses are free so it's worth that non-cost.
(How well does this fit Cosmos flavor, really? They could've paired Tempest and Flames again instead, given it some damage type option for utility...but sure, space includes the sun and other stars. And there's the electric weakness to consider, though it could've offered a bludgeoning/cold option for rainfall or hail.)
10 Waters of Creation (Life/Tempest only): Tempest gets this placid support feat instead, because...water theming. Or maybe they gave it water theming for Tempest. Two actions to vitality-heal creatures within a 15-foot emanation for 5d6, +1d6 for every 2 levels beyond 10, and its d6s become d8s if you're C3 when you cast it. It's an action saved over three action Heal and pays for it by being slightly weaker unless you use your last Cursebound on it, and having half the range, and not dealing vitality damage, and not being able to use anything that enhances Heal with it. A renewable two-action AoE heal is far from bad to have in your pocket, but the downsides do mount to make it inconvenient or unattractive at times. (Lower range at least makes it easier to avoid enemies with, maybe?) I think it could have used just a bit more spice or convenience and am not personally interested in spending the Lv 10 feat slot on this, but if you take it I'm sure it can be a clutch option and certainly worth its curse, especially on Tempest. (Life at least gets healed before the curse advances.)
16 Conduit of Void and Vitality: you need to have Heal or Harm as a signature spell for this, and it lets you cast the three-action version of either spell (using a slot like normal) for two actions, with one creature being healed an extra 1d8*Cursebound value and one being harmed extra for the same value if applicable (both can apply to separate targets if the spell does both). This is nearly the only Cursebound that directly modifies a spell you cast, and thus the only one with a guaranteed resource cost beyond the curse, though as action economy feats go it's decent enough, especially if you set out to acquire some things which enhance Heal/Harm. The extra damage/healing on singular targets often won't be much to write about compared to flat bonuses and die size buffs that everyone in the AoE benefits from, though it can certainly still help, especially with three-action Heal/Harm usually being a bit swingier and weaker than other AoEs. I like this more than Waters of Creation despite the resource cost, and both are worth their curse in most relevant cases...though I do still feel it could've used a little something, considering Clerics can get Fast Channel for most of the effect with no extra cost at Lv 14, and with lots more feat support for those spells on the side. :b
20 Mystery Conduit: just like the original, lets you cast a Rk 5 or lower spell without the slot cost, in exchange for advancing your curse, which saves an action and lacks the 1/minute frequency over Sorcerer's Bloodline Conduit/Druid's Ley Line Conduit/Psychic's Unlimited Potential. Tell me true, has anyone ever used this? Any of these? You can afford so many scrolls and wands of 9-or-more-levels-earlier spells at this point, if you're really running out of them that often. ^ ^;
Then there's the feats that trigger off of, require, or otherwise interact with Cursebound...
8 Water Walker: part of the former Cosmos curse benefit, souped-up at an earlier level but costing a slightly pricy feat slot. If you're C1 you can walk across liquids but not stop on them, and if you're at least C2 you simply get the effects of Water Walk. Nice thematic image, obviously niche, though it's required for...
14 Lighter Than Air: after the Water Walker benefits, you go somewhat beyond the previous Cosmos curse by gaining the effects of Fly if you're Cursebound at all, and a +10-foot status bonus to that Speed if you're C3. Obviously costly to have both of these, but certainly not niche, though it would've been nice to include the hovering-above-ground part that Cosmos used to get too, since Fly requires actions to sustain that.
14 Forestall Curse: does largely what it used to do, lets you use a Cursebound thing without advancing it 1/day. It's a free action now, which is a solid improvement, and it's obviously no longer a spellshape (though it might interfere with trying to use those with Conduit anyway, depending on GM strictness). Notably lets you get those "if used at C3" benefits more than once in an encounter, and is the only way to do so now that you can't overwhelm yourself.
14 Revelation's Focus: No, this doesn't actually enhance your rate of Cursebound recovery like it does your focus recovery, despite what you'd expect. I wonder what reason it could have to be at a later level than most other refocus hastens, when Oracle used to get those for free at earlier levels than most other casters. Anyway, please add speedier Cursebound recovery to it or the class features, thank you
16 Diverse Mystery: also almost exactly the same. Since there are no truly unique Cursebound actions, it still gives you another mystery's initial/advanced revelation spell, grants it the Cursebound trait, and even still makes you take the Cursebound 1 effect of that mystery, though you can now remove the curse effect like your own. What a throwback! Lots of good revelation spells with very minor curses to poach, too, though at Lv 16 it's likely in large part a cool novelty.
18 Blaze of Revelation: also almost exactly the same...but a little worse, I think! This used to be triggered when you'd become overwhelmed, which you really had to stretch for at this level, but after that you could use one (1) revelation spell from your mystery on each turn for a minute without using a focus point or (obviously) furthering the curse. And then you try to crit a Legendary Fort save lest you take unremovable Drained 2 or 4, or just die. This still lets you cast a free revelation spell each turn, but you need to be Cursebound 4 (which is not advanced by the focus spells) and activate the feat as a free action, which...sure you don't have to do weird extra-4th-focus-point things to activate it, but unless you're using your Cursebound in similarly wacky ways like trying to get the higher Oracular Warning bonuses, it seems quite unlikely you'll be out of focus points and Cursebound and want to spend many more of your turns on revelation spells after that, at this level.
But you can just not take that one, or the other weird ones. ¯\_('w')_/¯
The important point to all of this is that for as mechanically dull as they are, Cosmos/Flames/Tempest curses don't really do much in most situations, and the Battle/Bones/Life/Lore curses are fairly mild and bearable, especially with preparation. You don't even unlock the stages where the Tempest/Battle/Bones weaknesses and Battle/Bones/Lore save debuffs get more severe until the majority of campaigns are reaching a close, at Lv 11 (or 17 for when Lore grows largely unusable), and there's no longer much incentive to reaching the really bad stages, or a level lock to Refocusing more than 1 point, or an inability to drop your Cursebound condition below 1, so...more than ever before, you can just ignore the really bad parts of the curses for the most part.
It would take a lot more in the way of truly awful Cursebounds (or all of the curses being as punishing as Ancestors) to not be worth dealing with these largely mild drawbacks, and thankfully most of the Cursebounds are also genuinely nice to have rather than middlingly coasting by on that truth.
If the class must rely on its feats for most of the subclass flavor now, there should really be more Cursebound feats to give the missing Battle/Life/Lore/Tempest benefits, ideally even some that are actually unique, and the weakest subclasses/Cursebounds deserve some tuning to stand with the rest. Still, I'm glad it's mostly solid on the power front (this whole entire post having not even mentioned the extra slots and spells the class now gets >w>; ), and I'm sure it'll be interesting for, especially, the many new characters blissfully free of legacy character concerns~.
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Good review! I have some feedback too. :) The level 1 cursebound feats are honestly all pretty good, and I can imagine picking up more than one being common.
2 Meddling Futures
I have a hard time ever imagining wanting to use this, because I usually have a pretty good idea of what I want to do on my turn and leaving it up to chance that maybe that won't work doesn't make any sense to me. Its why I would never play Ancestors before, except with even lower odds to get the action I want.
10 Roll the Bones of Fate (Bones/Lore only)
The problem with this one is made clear by my GMs reaction when I told him the 4th result: "seriously? I'm house ruling that if you take it."
The last outcome is going to significantly slow the game down in a big fight as a LOT of targets need to track doing it, roll twice, then be reminded of what the outcome is as it's not even remotely intuitive. This would have run much more smoothly if 4 was just something negative like "you gain the 2 result or an enemy in range of the GMs choice gains the 1 result" so that fate is actually punishing you for trying to manipulate it, per the flavor text of the feat.
though I wonder what either of those mysteries really have to do with this theming.
I feel this a lot. Making these abilities locked to two mysteries(or none at all) don't make a ton of sense for some of them. Random mysteries are water walking because... reasons?
10 The Dead Walk (Ancestors/Battle only):
Damage wise, this is already worse than Debilitating Dichotomy when you get it and the scaling only gets worse from there. The other problem is that its spell attacks, which are mathematically the worst attack rolls in the game.
It is really cool flavor though, and that counts for a lot on a class that now desperately needs that. You also don't damage yourself and can setup flanking for an ally, so overall I like this one.
10 Trial By Skyfire (Cosmos/Flames only)
I have a hard time justifying this one because now that Cosmos lost its physical resistance, I really do NOT want to be in melee range of enemies, let alone several enemies to make this do significant amounts of damage. I'm often going to have a worse reflex save than what I'm using it on, and my martial allies that want to be fighting those things in melee are just going to be irritated with me.
It's really good on encounters with swarms or packs of weak enemies or if you REALLY need a bit of 1 action damage to finish something off, but it's not great.
16 Conduit of Void and Vitality
This is really cool, except that if you're not cursebound when you use it, you get 1d8*0 additional effect. That feels fiddly, but still a good feat.
20 Mystery Conduit[/quoote]
We got more spell slots, too. Since it doesn't work on spells with a duration, I'm really not sure when this will actually matter at level 20.
8 Water WalkerSpending a feat and needing to be Cursebound 2 at a level where that is your maximum just to get what the feat says on the tin is kinda underwhelming. It was thematic for Cosmos, but not so much for other mysteries. I view this mostly as a prerequisite unless its an adventure with a lot of water obstacles, since you can cast Water Walk to get across more typical water obstacles and bring your part with you.
14 Lighter Than AirPretty great when you need flight, and basically trivializes terrain obstacles, though at this level there were already ways to do that. Still, this isn't hard to keep up for as long as you want to.
18 Blaze of RevelationDefinitely worse for the reasons you said: we got more spell slots and cursebound spells. Unless you're chaining fights and starting one already low on resources, by time using this makes sense you're so deep into a fight that you likely don't need it... and if things are that bad, maybe use the extra spell slots we got? Like I can see it in one of those "we do a severe encounter and then the BBEG shows up immediately afterward" situations at the end of an adventure, but that's it.
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Blade Ally (now Blessing of Armament) got a nerf I haven’t seen anyone mention. Blade Ally used to give you the effect of the rune. Now Armament gives the weapon the rune. That means it won’t stack with an existing rune on the weapon past the limit of the fundamental runes. This hurt my thrown weapon switch-hitter build, because I can no longer have a returning rune and keep up with everyone else in terms of the damaging runes.
I don't know about the other nerfs you are talking about and have no real input on them but I have ALWAYS been on the side of things that the "effect" was simply there due to an editorial failure and that stacking Runes on equipment in a manner that was impossible according to the normal rules was an error, never intended, and basically a loophole/exploit that Paizo never intended to create. I've never allowed it, just like how I disallowed Runes to be applied to Magical Staffs, it was an edge case caused by a failure to clearly phrase the rules properly so I don't see it so much as a nerf as it is cleaning up the RAW to be sure that the intended rules were followed.
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Blade Ally (now Blessing of Armament) got a nerf I haven’t seen anyone mention. Blade Ally used to give you the effect of the rune. Now Armament gives the weapon the rune. That means it won’t stack with an existing rune on the weapon past the limit of the fundamental runes. This hurt my thrown weapon switch-hitter build, because I can no longer have a returning rune and keep up with everyone else in terms of the damaging runes.I don't know about the other nerfs you are talking about and have no real input on them but I have ALWAYS been on the side of things that the "effect" was simply there due to an editorial failure and that stacking Runes on equipment in a manner that was impossible according to the normal rules was an error, never intended, and basically a loophole/exploit that Paizo never intended to create. I've never allowed it, just like how I disallowed Runes to be applied to Magical Staffs, it was an edge case caused by a failure to clearly phrase the rules properly so I don't see it so much as a nerf as it is cleaning up the RAW to be sure that the intended rules were followed.
Entirely possible, and if so, they corrected it. It’s just a really, really underwhelming ability this way. The best it does is save you 55-150gp depending on which one you choose for the day. Being able to swap them is ok, but with that being a decision you have to make at the start of the day, it’s not fantastic. And it’s not like you have a bunch of options that you would swap between. Only Vitalizing has implications for resistances or weaknesses. Even the 10th level feat is mostly a money saver. The only real reason to take Armament now is for the crit spec.
EDIT: Ghost Touch obviously has damage implications, but it’s relatively cheap to just buy a backup Ghost Touch weapon. For the rare occasions where you know at the start of the day that you’re going to be fighting incorporeal, sure, it’s a good option to have.
The only other nerf I mentioned was the change to Shield Ally, which has been pretty widely talked about. Someone else mentioned there being others, but I’m not sure what they were.
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Blade Ally (now Blessing of Armament) got a nerf I haven’t seen anyone mention. Blade Ally used to give you the effect of the rune. Now Armament gives the weapon the rune. That means it won’t stack with an existing rune on the weapon past the limit of the fundamental runes. This hurt my thrown weapon switch-hitter build, because I can no longer have a returning rune and keep up with everyone else in terms of the damaging runes.I don't know about the other nerfs you are talking about and have no real input on them but I have ALWAYS been on the side of things that the "effect" was simply there due to an editorial failure and that stacking Runes on equipment in a manner that was impossible according to the normal rules was an error, never intended, and basically a loophole/exploit that Paizo never intended to create. I've never allowed it, just like how I disallowed Runes to be applied to Magical Staffs, it was an edge case caused by a failure to clearly phrase the rules properly so I don't see it so much as a nerf as it is cleaning up the RAW to be sure that the intended rules were followed.
After four rounds of errata on the CRB, I am really not sure the idea that was never intended holds a lot of water. They had loads of chances to address it and never did. So either:
- it was intended and they changed their minds
- it wasn't intended and they just never considered it important enough to errata
- it was intended and the new version is the one that's wrong (Player Core 2 isn't exactly lacking in errors)
Considering this is a class feature that in its new version just saves you a bit of gold but otherwise doesn't do anything that any character can't do by buying a weapon rune, the new version is really underwhelming.
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1 Foretell Harm (starting feat for Flames/Tempest): free action 1/round, previous non-cantrip damage spell's target takes 2*spell rank damage of the same type on their next turn, then is immune 24 hours. It's not an astoundingly impactful amount in a vacuum, but it can retrigger weaknesses, has no save, and takes no extra action economy. If the PFS clarifications have input from the designers, it's supposed to work on all targets of an AoE, which would also magnify it quite a bit. Helpful to have and use either way, worthwhile enough for all but the most extreme curses (and by that I mostly mean Ancestors unless they can get some safety), though other Cursebounds may outshine it in their use cases.
If those PFS changes are legit this feat seems to be a lot better now, although the per target cooldown is still questionable. Before the feat was honestly pretty bad, only working on a single target, and having a per target cooldown.
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I actually like Foretell Harm. Unlike persistent damage, it triggers at the beginning of the target(s?)' turn. You wouldn't want it as your only cursebound. (The only 1st level cursebound that seems relevant more than once a battle is Nudge the Scales, so most builds probably want to get two.) Applying it to a whole groups would be pretty great, but even on a single target, you're talking about free action, no save damage. And most notably you can save this for when your spell ALMOST kills an enemy. You know when you leave an enemy at single digit HP and wish you had one more action to fire a magic missile? This basically gives you that extra action.
I appreciate Amaya/Polaris's write up. Their thoughts mirror my own. I really like the flavor of the Dead Walk. It would make a great addition to my battle oracle. Sadly I'm having a really hard time justifying it instead of just converting him to flames.
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I actually like Foretell Harm. Unlike persistent damage, it triggers at the beginning of the target(s?)' turn. You wouldn't want it as your only cursebound. (The only 1st level cursebound that seems relevant more than once a battle is Nudge the Scales, so most builds probably want to get two.) Applying it to a whole groups would be pretty great, but even on a single target, you're talking about free action, no save damage. And most notably you can save this for when your spell ALMOST kills an enemy. You know when you leave an enemy at single digit HP and wish you had one more action to fire a magic missile? This basically gives you that extra action.
I appreciate Amaya/Polaris's write up. Their thoughts mirror my own. I really like the flavor of the Dead Walk. It would make a great addition to my battle oracle. Sadly I'm having a really hard time justifying it instead of just converting him to flames.
The thing is that you're increasing your curse, so it's not "free".
Dangerous Sorcery (or the new Sorcerous Potency) is actually free, and it undeniably works on every target of the spell. It's also damage that comes immediately, not after a delay (damage now is better than damage later). The only advantages of Foretell harm is the fact that the damage can proc weaknesses, and it does full damage regardless of the enemy saving throw result.
If it hits all enemies it becomes a lot better, but I still don't like the per target cooldown.
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I converted over in my Kingmaker game and was using Oracular Warning tonight. The temp HP isn't much (but every bit helps). The +2 to initiative stacked with the party member that was Scouting and the combined bonus made a real difference in turn order. Considering that didn't cost me an action and I don't have a pile of other things to use at level 6 that compete with it for Cursebound space, I was pretty happy with it. So yeah, at least some of them are worth it. :)
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I converted over in my Kingmaker game and was using Oracular Warning tonight. The temp HP isn't much (but every bit helps). The +2 to initiative stacked with the party member that was Scouting and the combined bonus made a real difference in turn order. Considering that didn't cost me an action and I don't have a pile of other things to use at level 6 that compete with it for Cursebound space, I was pretty happy with it. So yeah, at least some of them are worth it. :)
It's a good ability, but it is worse than the focus spell it used to be, and that spell's mystery got a bad replacement so I'm pretty salty about it.
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I converted over in my Kingmaker game and was using Oracular Warning tonight. The temp HP isn't much (but every bit helps). The +2 to initiative stacked with the party member that was Scouting and the combined bonus made a real difference in turn order. Considering that didn't cost me an action and I don't have a pile of other things to use at level 6 that compete with it for Cursebound space, I was pretty happy with it. So yeah, at least some of them are worth it. :)It's a good ability, but it is worse than the focus spell it used to be, and that spell's mystery got a bad replacement so I'm pretty salty about it.
Yeah, for sure. My character in that same game also learned the hard way they lost their physical damage reduction (by getting hit) and also lost Cloak of Shadows (when trying to cast it didn't work, which happened during a narrative scene).
So I've been making the best of it, but you're definitely not alone being salty about this. I don't think this is what anybody wanted out of this rework, and I've still got one of the good mysteries so it wasn't that rough a transition.
I feel deeply for folks with beloved characters that were hit hard by this, especially since I'm not confident an errata rework like what Alchemist got multiple times is ever going to appear.