Rogue players: Legendary Skills


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


I have questions for experienced Rogue players:

How many legendary skills do your characters have by Level 10? Level 15? Level 18?

Thanks.

Sovereign Court

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scary harpy wrote:


I have questions for experienced Rogue players:

How many legendary skills do your characters have by Level 10? Level 15? Level 18?

Thanks.

Rogues get 1 skill increase every level, but they are still bound by the usual limits:

- No expert skills before level 2
- No master skills before level 7
- No legendary skills before level 15

You can't save up skill increases to spend them at a later level (just like you can't save up feats etc.).

So at level 10, no legendary skills yet.

At level 15, at most 1. Almost always you'll do it - you could get more Master or lower level skills, but you're probably really looking forward to the Legendary skill feats.

Level 18: now you could have a total of 4 legendary skills.


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You will end with six at level 20 if you focus on getting six to legendary.


This is what I was looking for.

Thank you both.

Grand Lodge

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It's actually possible to get at least 7 legendary non-lore skills if you take the Acrobat Archetype. It gives you expert in Acrobatics at 2nd, and auto-scales to legendary at 15th.
I don't know if any other Archetypes have auto-scaling skills.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

There are others, like Inventor archetype having a feat for auto-scaled crafting, and the (asterisk for AP material) Twilight Speaker archetype having auto scaling Society.

(And of course, there is the Additional Lore Skill Feat autoscaling whatever lore you pick up with it)

Shadow Lodge

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Barring special archetypes or other oddities, your 'typical' Rogue skill progression is:
Level 01: You start with a lot of Trained Skills.
Levels 02-06: Raise one Trained skill to Expert at each of these levels, leaving you with 5 Expert Skills at level 06.
Levels 07-11: Raise one of your Expert Skills to Master at each of these levels, leaving you with 5 Master Skills at level 11.
Levels 12-14: For two of these levels, you'll be raising a Trained Skill to Expert. You'll raise one of these new Expert skills to Master with the other level in this range, leaving you with 6 Master Skills and 1 Expert Skill at level 14.
Levels 15-20: Raise one Master Skill to Legendary at each of these levels, leaving you with 6 Legendary Skills and 1 Expert Skill at level 20.


You'd can squeeze in Legendary to Crafting as well with Legendary Tattoo artist feat.


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There are many ways to get a skill to legendary without raising the skill:

Any Skill

  • 4th-level Aftermath feat Echo of the Fallen
  • 17th-level Thaumaturge Tome Implement Paragon benefit (choose 2)
  • Have a bargained Contract with a hag, for a Stone of Unrivaled Skill
  • 2nd-rank Corpse Communion ritual

    Acrobatics

  • 2nd-level Acrobat Dedication archetype feat

    Crafting

  • 4th-level Inventor archetype feat Brilliant Crafter
  • 15th-level skill feat Legendary Tattoo Artist
  • 15th-level Inventor class feature Legendary Overdrive

    Society

  • 2nd-level Twilight Speaker archetype (Ilverani Elves only)

    Lores

  • any: 1st-level general skill feat Additional Lore
  • any: 1st-level gnome ancestry feat Gnome Obsession
  • Driving Lore: 2nd-level Trick Driver Dedication archetype feat
  • Engineering Lore: 1st-level Dwarf ancestry feat Dongun Education
  • Esoteric Lore: 1st-level Thaumaturge class feature Esoteric Lore
  • Explosive Lore: 1st-level Dwarf ancestry feat Dongun Education
  • Firearm Lore: 1st-level Dwarf ancestry feat Dongun Education
  • Legal Lore: 4th-level Aftermath feat Devil's Eye

  • Dark Archive

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    Beyond the end goal of getting legendary there are a number of archetypes that can give you free boosts from trained to expert, or more rarely expert to master.

    Rogue, Thaumaturge, or Investigator MC provide feats at L8 that can boost a trained to expert and expert to master (you can take those up to 5 times on the rogue/investigator).

    If you want a list of the other skill boosting archetypes I made a fairly complete list here/.

    First tab has the archetypes, what skills can get boosted, and if there are any skill feats that you (as a rogue that gets a skill feat every level) can use to 'buy your 3 feats from the archetype.

    The last two tabs include example non-FA builds where you try to maximize skill increases via those archetypes (it delays going investigator to fit in a few more archetypes). I'm probably going to have to make a new version based on Theaitetos's list though.

    Shadow Lodge

    Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
    Red Griffyn wrote:

    Beyond the end goal of getting legendary there are a number of archetypes that can give you free boosts from trained to expert, or more rarely expert to master.

    Rogue, Thaumaturge, or Investigator MC provide feats at L8 that can boost a trained to expert and expert to master (you can take those up to 5 times on the rogue/investigator).

    If you want a list of the other skill boosting archetypes I made a fairly complete list here/.

    One missing from that list:

    Runescarred Dedication will take your Thassilonian Lore from Trained to Expert.


    Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

    Maybe it's just me, but setting the goal as Legendary proficiency in every skill that gets "improved" may not suit every character (even a rogue or investigator). The character may find that having Master proficiency in three skills can be more useful than Legendary proficiency in two skills.

    Master proficiency in Acrobatics for Kip Up (and maybe Aerobatics Mastery), yes, but not every character will "need" Legendary to fall any distance without damage using Cat Fall. Even a rogue or investigator (or multiclass rogue archetype) can "get by" with Master proficiency in Thievery if they take the Trap Finder class feat ("If you have master proficiency in Thievery, you can disable traps that require a proficiency rank of legendary instead, and your circumstance bonuses against traps increase to +2").


    Great Answers.

    Many Thanks to all!


    There used to be value for rogues that used skill feats to get a ton of legendary lore skills.

    You could use it to invest so you can ID monsters using ONLY intelligence. So you could get Lore (undead) and lore (fiends) instead of getting the religion skill and trying to jerry rig both intelligence and wisdom into your build.

    I say there "used to" be value in this. Thaumaturge has taken over the "monster ID skill monkey" route. They need almost no investment to just use esoteric lore for everything. They even still get trained in normal knowldge skills when you need non-monster ID knowledge checks.

    Admittedly, a wizard can still try to take the lore route. They have tons of Int, skill investment doesn't bother their build much, and unified theory requires you to wait until level 15. Also, it lets you be a know it all from practically level 1, so it is easy to be in character.

    Shadow Lodge

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    Dragonchess Player wrote:

    Maybe it's just me, but setting the goal as Legendary proficiency in every skill that gets "improved" may not suit every character (even a rogue or investigator). The character may find that having Master proficiency in three skills can be more useful than Legendary proficiency in two skills.

    Master proficiency in Acrobatics for Kip Up (and maybe Aerobatics Mastery), yes, but not every character will "need" Legendary to fall any distance without damage using Cat Fall. Even a rogue or investigator (or multiclass rogue archetype) can "get by" with Master proficiency in Thievery if they take the Trap Finder class feat ("If you have master proficiency in Thievery, you can disable traps that require a proficiency rank of legendary instead, and your circumstance bonuses against traps increase to +2").

    Going for a broader skill focus makes some sense for a 'solo' character but in a long-term group, you are likely to find your 'extra' skills are redundant at best.

    Being legendary at 'your' six skills is typically better than being a master at your six and another three that other party members probably have covered already: There are only 16 non-lore skills (including Intimidation and Performance which both seem to be more of a 'personal choice' than 'adventuring party necessity' to me), and a 'Rogue + 3 non-rogue non-investigator characters' party could have 15 legendary skills at level 20, so broadening you skill base probably isn't particularly helpful...


    lemeres wrote:

    There used to be value for rogues that used skill feats to get a ton of legendary lore skills.

    You could use it to invest so you can ID monsters using ONLY intelligence. So you could get Lore (undead) and lore (fiends) instead of getting the religion skill and trying to jerry rig both intelligence and wisdom into your build.

    I say there "used to" be value in this. Thaumaturge has taken over the "monster ID skill monkey" route. They need almost no investment to just use esoteric lore for everything. They even still get trained in normal knowldge skills when you need non-monster ID knowledge checks.

    Admittedly, a wizard can still try to take the lore route. They have tons of Int, skill investment doesn't bother their build much, and unified theory requires you to wait until level 15. Also, it lets you be a know it all from practically level 1, so it is easy to be in character.

    I read the Lore skill and it did not seem to allow Lore Undead or Lore Fiends. It seemed to indicate you had to pick a Lore Vampires or Lore Demons more specific specialization to use Lore to replace broad types of creatures. Is there some other ruling somewhere indicating you can take Lore Undead or similar broad creature types?


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    Deriven Firelion wrote:
    I read the Lore skill and it did not seem to allow Lore Undead or Lore Fiends. It seemed to indicate you had to pick a Lore Vampires or Lore Demons more specific specialization to use Lore to replace broad types of creatures. Is there some other ruling somewhere indicating you can take Lore Undead or similar broad creature types?

    There are many backgrounds explicitly giving Undead Lore:

    Tyrant Witness, Quick Refugee, Quick, Once Bitten, Lastwall Survivor, Seer of the Dead, Scion of Slayers, and Tomb Born.


    Theaitetos wrote:
    Deriven Firelion wrote:
    I read the Lore skill and it did not seem to allow Lore Undead or Lore Fiends. It seemed to indicate you had to pick a Lore Vampires or Lore Demons more specific specialization to use Lore to replace broad types of creatures. Is there some other ruling somewhere indicating you can take Lore Undead or similar broad creature types?

    There are many backgrounds explicitly giving Undead Lore:

    Tyrant Witness, Quick Refugee, Quick, Once Bitten, Lastwall Survivor, Seer of the Dead, Scion of Slayers, and Tomb Born.

    Excellent. Thanks. So I would imagine you can do the same for fiend lore or dragons or what not. This would be considered an Unspecific Lore whereas as Vampire Lore would be considered a specific Lore? That is how I have been running it to date. Is that the general idea?

    Undead Lore: Unspecific lore roll for an undead.

    Vampire Lore: Applies only to vampires, but a specific lore that allows the lower roll.


    Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
    Taja the Barbarian wrote:
    Dragonchess Player wrote:

    Maybe it's just me, but setting the goal as Legendary proficiency in every skill that gets "improved" may not suit every character (even a rogue or investigator). The character may find that having Master proficiency in three skills can be more useful than Legendary proficiency in two skills.

    Master proficiency in Acrobatics for Kip Up (and maybe Aerobatics Mastery), yes, but not every character will "need" Legendary to fall any distance without damage using Cat Fall. Even a rogue or investigator (or multiclass rogue archetype) can "get by" with Master proficiency in Thievery if they take the Trap Finder class feat ("If you have master proficiency in Thievery, you can disable traps that require a proficiency rank of legendary instead, and your circumstance bonuses against traps increase to +2").

    Going for a broader skill focus makes some sense for a 'solo' character but in a long-term group, you are likely to find your 'extra' skills are redundant at best.

    Being legendary at 'your' six skills is typically better than being a master at your six and another three that other party members probably have covered already: There are only 16 non-lore skills (including Intimidation and Performance which both seem to be more of a 'personal choice' than 'adventuring party necessity' to me), and a 'Rogue + 3 non-rogue non-investigator characters' party could have 15 legendary skills at level 20, so broadening you skill base probably isn't particularly helpful...

    Even in a group, it comes down to "will someone have at least Master proficiency" and "what proficiency gets me the desired skill feats." As I mentioned, most characters will probably want Master in Acrobatics; Kip Up is just that useful for everybody. Skill feats can be another factor; just because one character is investing in a skill doesn't necessarily mean they can afford to take every relevant skill feat for it. Also, there are some skills where the Legendary skill feat is kind of ho-hum (how often are Divine Guidance, Legendary Codebreaker/Legendary Linguist, Legendary Survivalist, or Legendary Thief really useful options at that level in a typical adventure?).

    Also, an overlap can be useful for some "high value" skills. Other than the mentioned Acrobatics for Kip Up, having more than one PC that can use Diplomacy for Bon Mot or Intimidation to demoralize can prevent bottlenecking during play. The aid action/reaction with "redundant skills" means the +6 proficiency bonus for Master instead of +8 for Legendary is pretty much a "six of one, half-dozen of the other" situation anyway.

    For groups without a rogue or investigator in the party (not that uncommon), spreading each character's skills a bit broader will likely be more important.

    Liberty's Edge

    Note that getting max scores in skills requires buying expensive skill-boosting items.


    Deriven Firelion wrote:


    Excellent. Thanks. So I would imagine you can do the same for fiend lore or dragons or what not. This would be considered an Unspecific Lore whereas as Vampire Lore would be considered a specific Lore? That is how I have been running it to date. Is that the general idea?

    Undead Lore: Unspecific lore roll for an undead.

    Vampire Lore: Applies only to vampires, but a specific lore that allows the lower roll.

    Yes, that's how it works.

    And you can also get Dragon Lore from the Dragon Scholar & Eidolon Contact backgrounds.

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