Problem Statement:
Ancestries take a two pages of rules to publish, what is that 1000 or so words, and would take approximately 3% of the space in a 64 page adventure or 10% of the space of a 200 page monster manual assuming 20 Ancestries, like we got with the Starfinder original Alien Archives. How can we get this down to the side bar that is the original additional races in Starfinder 1 and keep it compatible with Pathfinder Ancestries?
Proposed solution:
Add a new grouping of feats called something like Aspects.
These Aspects are generic with a theme and then you would combine the aspects to make an Ancestry. You don't change when or how you get ancestry feats, your selection is just based on what aspects your Ancestry has.
So here is what I am thinking:
The 6 stats have Aspects, so if you are an Elf you might have the Dexterity aspect, or a Dwarf the Constitution aspect. Those aspects would have feats related to the particular stat like poison resist for Constitution.
Where they live have aspects, like underground or aquatic. This would have feats related to their home location. Darkvision for underground or water breathing for aquatic.
They could also be racial identity type aspects like warrior, or psychic.
Type of creature could also be an aspect. For instance humanoid, ratkin, or dragonkin. Each having specific feats related to them, dragonkin might have a feat for energy resistance for the type of dragon they are related to.
So then what you do is take for instance three aspects combine them to make a Ancestry. That way you could even put the aspects as tags on the creature and boom you have a playable race. Then if the creature in question has some special power then you can add a little box like the ones in the original races that says something like this power is a 5th level Ancestry feat. This way everything that would be appropriate as a PC can be added as soon as it is published and we are not waiting on a product to give us specific rules, or writing specific rules of our own. Please make my life as the eternal GM easier.
If implemented properly it could also be retrofitted into Pathfinder easily as it is not really changing any of the way the core system is built, just how you generate the list of feats you can select with your ancestry feat slots. This is sort of and extension of the idea of the Versatel Heritage and the Adopted concepts.
Let me compare numbers.
In the Starfinder Core Rulebook androids, humans, kasathas, lashuntas, shirrens, vesk, and ysoki each take 2 pages in the Races chapter. In the Pathfinder Player Core dwarves, elves, gnomes, goblins, halfings, humans, leshies, and orcs each take 4 pages in the Ancestries & Backgrounds chapter. An ancestry has one page of physical and cultural description, one page of traits and heritages, and two pages of ancestry feats.
If we separate the ancestry feats to group them by Aspect rather than Ancestry, they would still take up the same number of pages unless two ancestries share an aspect. For example, both Elves and Gnomes could have a Magical Aspect, so half a page of Magical Aspect feats would work for both of them and save one page in the rulebook. Both Elves and Halflings could have a Dextrous Aspect, saving another half page. Both elves and dwarves could have a Longevity Aspect, saving a third half page. Three aspects--Dextrous, Longevity, and Magical--could cover all the feats for elves, except a half page of ancestry feats exclusive to elves. Great, we have saved 1.5 pages. Each Player Core ancestry could have 2.5 pages to themselves and share 6 pages of 12 different aspect feat lists. That would save 6 pages in the rulebook. Maybe if some aspects are shared by 3 ancestries, we cound drop the aspects down to 10 that fit into 5 pages. That would save 7 pages instead. Pathfinder Player Core has 466 pages, so 7 pages is 1.5%. The better thing about saving 7 pages is that we could squeeze in two more ancestries, making 10 total. Starfinder has a lot more races than Pathfinder.
For a test run, let's see if we can categorize the ancestry feats of ancestries we already know. Our emphasis will be on the seven Starfinder Core Races. Android and Vesk ancestries were previewed in Starfinder Field Test #3. Android, human, and ysoki (ratfolk) ancestries already exist in Pathfinder 2nd Edition.
I immediately run into trouble with the Android. Their ancestry feats, almost identical in PF2 and the Field Test, are all about using their circuitry. That is one category when I want three. But thinking ahead to other intelligent machine characters such as SROs, we can split the nanite-based abilities from the mechanical abilities. I will call the nanite aspect "Microsymbiotic" because that fits the Entu Colony ancestry, too. For a third aspect, I borrow the general-purpose Adaptable aspect from the humans.
Humans are the starting point for all mythological intelligent species, and aliens have often been depicted by humans in makeup. They are too generic, the general-purpose ancestry. So they get Adaptable. Their ancestry feats in PF2 include General Training and Natural Ambition which train in extra feats and skills from elsewhere. I'll call those Talented aspect. We aslo have some feats for working in groups, such as Cooperative Nature. Those will be Cooperative aspect.
Vesk seem pretty militaristic. That can be War-trained aspect. They also have natural abilities such as Brutal Anatomy, Menacing Snarl, and Blood Sense. Most possible names for natural combat abilities, such as Bestial, sound like insults, so I will call these feats Scaly aspect instead. And let's give them an attribute based aspect, too, Strong aspect associated with Strength.
A lot of Ysoki (Ratfolk) ancestry feats treat them like rats that were granted intelligence without changing their ratlike behavior. That is how fantasy often works, but I expect more out of science fantasy. Warren Friend, Warren Navigator, Overcrowded, and Warren Digger relate to life in a rat warren, so one aspect is Warren-Dweller. They also have a natural attack with their bite, which I will call Toothy. Finally, I give them Dextrous aspect for their stealthy Dexterity-based abilities.
Android: Adaptable, Constructed, Microsymbiotic
Human: Adaptable, Cooperative, Talented
Vesk: Scaly, Strong, War-trained
Ysoki: Dextrous, Toothy, Warren-dweller
Next, I indulge in guesswork for the other three core races: kasathas, lashuntas, and shirrens.
Kasathans are multi-armed and we probably need a Multi-armed aspect to deal with all the Multi-armed ancestries in Starfinder. The Playing a Kasathan box on page 47 of the Starfinder Core Rulebook says, "Seek wisdom in history and find dignity in customs and tradition." so let's give them the Wise aspect associated with Wisdom attribute. Their athletic nature would qualify for Strong aspect, and though I dislike giving them to attribute-based aspects, I lack a better idea,
Lashuntas are telepathic and magic-wielding, so they get Telepathic and Magical aspect. That leave them open for a attribute-based aspect, such as Charismatic.
I am tempted to declare a shirren aspect as Insectoid, since that is their most distinguishing feature. But what would Insectoid mean when they are mostly humanoid with no natural attacks or armor? Their communalism can fit under Cooperative aspect. And they have telepathy. For a third aspect, they seem to have rebounded from their hive origins to be highly individualistic, so let's invent an aspect called Individualistic.
Kasathan: Multi-armed, Strong, Wise
Lashunta: Charismatic, Magical, Telepathic
Shirren: Cooperative, Individualistic, Telepathic
We have six attribute-based aspects: Strong, Dextrous, Tough, Smart, Wise, and Charismatic. I invented thirteen more: Adaptable, Constructed, Cooperative, Individualistic, Magical, Microsymbiotic, Multi-armed, Scaly, Talented, Telepathic, Toothy, Warren-dweller, and War-trained. For seven ancestries, I used 17 aspects, which seems excessive. I was hoping to have 12 aspects that could be used for 12 ancestries.
Perhaps I could combine Scaly and Toothy into one aspect named Ferocious, Cooperative and Warren-dwelling into Communal (and get those poor ysoki out of the dirt), and make move the Talented and Individualistic feats into Adaptable. Throw in Smart on the humans to make us more technolgical. That would give me only 14 aspects used for 7 ancestries, and 15 aspects so far. I see Aquatic and Winged as other possible aspects.
Android: Adaptable, Constructed, Microsymbiotic
Human: Adaptable, Communal, Smart
Kasathan: Multi-armed, Strong, Wise
Lashunta: Charismatic, Magical, Telepathic
Shirren: Adaptable, Communal, Telepathic
Vesk: Ferocious, Strong, War-trained
Ysoki: Communal, Dextrous, Ferocious
Adaptable 3 - Android, Human, Shirren
Communal 3 - Human, Shirren, Ysoki
Ferocious 2 - Vesk, Ysoki
Strong 2 - Kasathan, Vesk
Telepathic 2 - Lashunta, Shirren
Charismatic 1 - Lashunta
Constructed 1 - Android
Dextrous 1 - Ysoki
Magical 1 - Lashunta
Microsymbiotic 1 - Android
Multi-armed 1 - Kasathan
Smart 1 - Human
War-trained 1 - Vesk
Wise 1 - Kasathan
I'm guessing ancestries are gonna work just like pathfinder ones and there will be 40-50 percent of the previous editions number of playable alien species by the end of the edition. Not a huge deal considering internal variation with feat choices and versatile heritages, but it'll definitely be a blow for the sf1e fans. SF2E will have the benefit of 6 years worth of PF2E ancestries to further bolster it's initial numbers (but "use PF2e stuff" is decidedly NOT something the starfinder crowd is interested in hearing). Including Howl of the Wild and Tian Xia character guide options, SF2E will start out the gate with a little over 50 playable ancestries......that's kind of ridiculous when you think about it
In my previous comment I was analyzing the page savings, but WWHsmackdown's comment made me contemplate marketing. These days Paizo likes to publish rulebooks that have material for both the players and the GMs, because setting material designed for GMs alone has a smaller market.
I figure that the new Starfinder Player Core Rulebook (or whatever Paizo names it) will have about 12 ancestries, because the Pathfinder Player Core had only 8 ancestries. Throwing in 30 or more ancestries would be give new players too much reading to make a choice.
But the later supplemental books would be different. Each one could easily throw in 20 new ancestries, because their buyers will be seeking more choices. A Pact Worlds book could have all the overlooked ancestries in the Pact World system, a Veskarium book could have all the overlooked ancestries in Vesk-controlled space. But then we get books specifically about weird alien ancestries from weird new planets: Alien Homeworlds 1, Alien Homewords 2, Alien Homeworlds 3, etc. I put "Homeworlds" in the name simply because I hope they contain descriptions and maps of planets, too. Starfinder Alien Archive introduced 22 playable alien races, Starfinder Alien Archive 2 introduced 16, Starfinder Alien Archive 3 introduced 20, Starfinder Alien Archive 4 introduced 12, and Interstellar Species lists 25 but some look like repeats. So we can assume at most 22 new alien ancestries per book.
Archives of Nethys has entries for 143 playable species. Covering all those new species would require the new Core Rulebook and 6 supplemental books at 22 species each. That does seem too slow. To reduce it to 4 supplemental books would need 33 species per book.
ProfessorC's Aspect grouping of ancestry feats does have potential for the supplemental ruleboos. Suppose a player liked the telepathy in their lashunta character and wants another telepath for their next character but different from a lashunta. So they look to see which species have Telepathy Aspect and pick a winged fey Kiirinta. In addition, the supplemental rulebook that contains the SF2 Kiirinta won't need a page for the Telepath feats. Instead, it will refer back to the list in the Core Rulebook. That will save space in the supplements.
In addition, the Aspect feats could be a selling point for supplemental rulebooks, with descriptions such as, "Alien Homewolds 2 has 33 new playable ancestries and additional feats for the telepathic, adaptable, and ferocious lists." Thus, someone playing a lashunta might be interested in the rulebook just to see new options for lashuntas.
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Is it wrong of me to want Starfinder ancestries to be less samey, rather than more?
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Is it wrong of me to want Starfinder ancestries to be less samey, rather than more?
This. While I understand the desire, the solution proposed itself creates a problem - it limits both design and player thought. Because if you create a system like this, you have to use it. Extensively. Meaning ancestries edge closer to just being a bunch of stats and generic abilities, lacking personality.
I'd rather have what the team intends - fewer ancestries, but the ones we get will receive some actual depth. And it's not like "fewer" in this case actually means "few" ancestries. True, it won't be the SF1 insanity, but even the lower PF2 rate is extremely exceptional by any measure.
Quoted from Mathmuse's post:
In addition, the Aspect feats could be a selling point for supplemental rulebooks, with descriptions such as, "Alien Homewolds 2 has 33 new playable ancestries and additional feats for the telepathic, adaptable, and ferocious lists." Thus, someone playing a lashunta might be interested in the rulebook just to see new options for lashuntas.
This was my thinking. I do not think it reduces the actual page count for the core rulebook. This way you aren't stuck with giving individual ancestries love you can give whole swaths of them upgrades/updates. It will help with the issue of ancestries appearing in noncore sources rarely or never getting revisited.
To answer the ancestries being more generic and not unique. Most creatures have one or two "powers" that could easily be added as part of the sidebar with Power X is a 5th level ancestry feat. So if you want to gain the power use your 5th level or later ancestry feat slot. You could also add can select certain feats from other aspects to make them more unique. Once you have established the system it is about minimizing words and work to add new things to it.
I want to see Alien Archives & future Bestiaries having 20 playable ancestries like the days of the SF1 Alien Archives.
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Okay. So... help me out here. What's the gain? If the ancestries all wind up being fairly samey, what's the benefit from having lots and lots of them?
For the other... I admit, I do get the appeal of having more feats show up for your favorite ancestry in later books, and I do see how this could lead to that, but there's a bit of a double-edged sword in that, where the combinatorics of it means that it gets that much easier to wind up with a combo that starts to be a bit game-breaking. You can wind up with a situation where three different feats from three different lists in three different books combo together (available only due to an ancestry printed in a fourth book) and wind up being OP in an un-fun way.
Of course, the way to avoid that is to make sure that none of those feats actually combo with anything ever... but at that point I'm starting to think that an enormous pile of unexciting ancestry feats isn't necessarily any better than an enormous pile of unexciting ancestries.