Monster Core reveals


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Captain Morgan wrote:

I'm not promising an AMA because I want to read the book organically, but I'm going to post fun things as I come across them. The first thing that struck me was how little seems to have changed, including art. Then I reached archons. BIBLICALLY ACCURATE ANGLES CONFIRMED. Archons are like what qlippoth used to be to demons-- the original denizens of heaven before the gods showed up with their angelic entourages. Unlike the qlipooth, the archons found common ground with their new neighbors and allied with them for justice. But where angels tend to resemble human forms (fitting, since they are mostly formed from human souls) archons are weird and alien. They never have the right number of heads or eyes. I love them.

Higher level aeons have a weakness to spirit damage.

Angels and archons only seem to deal spirit damage if they wield a weapon with a holy rune. They don't need to deal multiple damage types now because it will effect all PCs equally and the holy trait suffices to trigger weakness.

Oh my goodness that's awesome thank you very much for that!

Are actual qlippoth vulnerable to holy now? Or spirit? Or neither?


Calliope5431 wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:

I'm not promising an AMA because I want to read the book organically, but I'm going to post fun things as I come across them. The first thing that struck me was how little seems to have changed, including art. Then I reached archons. BIBLICALLY ACCURATE ANGLES CONFIRMED. Archons are like what qlippoth used to be to demons-- the original denizens of heaven before the gods showed up with their angelic entourages. Unlike the qlipooth, the archons found common ground with their new neighbors and allied with them for justice. But where angels tend to resemble human forms (fitting, since they are mostly formed from human souls) archons are weird and alien. They never have the right number of heads or eyes. I love them.

Higher level aeons have a weakness to spirit damage.

Angels and archons only seem to deal spirit damage if they wield a weapon with a holy rune. They don't need to deal multiple damage types now because it will effect all PCs equally and the holy trait suffices to trigger weakness.

Oh my goodness that's awesome thank you very much for that!

Are actual qlippoth vulnerable to holy now? Or spirit? Or neither?

Vulnerable in the sense they take whatever extra bad effects Holy things do? Yeah. They haven't got a specific weakness to it, though.

Captain Morgan wrote:
As to doppelgangers, pretty sure faceless stalkers are still in there. I was never quite clear why we had both TBH, and there are plenty of other shape shifting creatures too. Totenmaske springs to mind.

Oh dang. I forgot the faceless stalker; James even mentioned them upthread.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Got my PDF copy! :D

Just finished reading it too.

I'll help where I can and as time allows.


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I have to admit. I totally understand the rationale behind changing "Horsemen of the Apocalypse" to "Apocalypse Riders" (Szuriel is just really awkward otherwise).

But it really does not roll off the tongue in the same way or have the same cultural cachet.


Horsepersons of the Apocalypse.


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Perpdepog wrote:
Horsepersons of the Apocalypse.

Proper etiquette dictates that individuals be referred to as people first; don't prioritize their condition--that's rude. For example, you should not say "the deaf boy..." but rather, would say "the boy who is deaf..."

Ergo, they are "people of the apocalypse who ride horses."

.
.
.

;P


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

From a sort of... remove, I'm honestly enjoying everything I'm hearing.

Not so much because Pathfinder didn't already have some strong identity, but... it really feels like it's going to be a more... coherent set of critters.


Captain Morgan wrote:
As to doppelgangers, pretty sure faceless stalkers are still in there. I was never quite clear why we had both TBH

Aren't those extremely specific creatures from a very specific family though? Like, it seems hard to use them to just add one or a couple of villainous shapeshifters, they have to be a sign of deeper plans and worse problems.

Totenmaske fits more or less for this. And they are scaaary.


Kittyburger wrote:
Has anyone's actual Monster Core tracking number populated yet? I have the link for it but the tracker hasn't popped yet so far as I can see. It's still showing "tracking information is not available at this time" 3 business days after the email.

In my experience, the tracking numbers rarely work. I would get the book before tacking number populated.


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Errenor wrote:
Aren't those extremely specific creatures from a very specific family though? Like, it seems hard to use them to just add one or a couple of villainous shapeshifters, they have to be a sign of deeper plans and worse problems.

I mean the thing about the Algollthu is that they are schemers through and through, but their logic is fundamentally alien. So who's to say they didn't have "send a faceless stalker to impersonate one specific tailor" as part of some grand plan the PCs will never get to the bottom of since it's supposed to play out over a thousand years.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:


Exactly. And while that means we won't be using them in a remastered product, there's nothing preventing you from using them in your home games or swapping them in for creatures in adventures we publish; the rules still work fine (with the exception that remastered qlippoth don't have that lawful weakness, but just ignoring that in a remastered game is fine too.)

See. That's my whole view. I still have 3 bestiaries of great monsters plus the monster core. If a monster got an update (like the ghoul or kobold) I'll use the remastered version. But if there's a qlippoth or some other evil thing I want to use... I've got the book right beside me. I'll just ignore or change things from the OGL like alignment.

The OGL police aren't going to jump out and grab me for something I'm not publishing.


As I understood it, Fey/Fairyfolk were once defined by their alignment...and if their alignment changed, they would change into another fey.

Now that alignment is history, how are the fair folk remastered?


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scary harpy wrote:

As I understood it, Fey/Fairyfolk were once defined by their alignment...and if their alignment changed, they would change into another fey.

Now that alignment is history, how are the fair folk remastered?

Probably zero change since it didn't inherently have anything to do with alignment when it was the case (which it wasn't always, because fey) but more "nature". Gremlins are nasty little creatures because they represent disorder and nature's tendency to break things down. Nymphs are kind and beautiful because they represent the life-giving aspects of nature. Those things were true and should remain true since they had nothing to do with alignment. I could be wrong though.

I've never heard of the changing into other fey part. That's news to me.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, I've never heard that either.


Ched Greyfell wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


Exactly. And while that means we won't be using them in a remastered product, there's nothing preventing you from using them in your home games or swapping them in for creatures in adventures we publish; the rules still work fine (with the exception that remastered qlippoth don't have that lawful weakness, but just ignoring that in a remastered game is fine too.)
The OGL police aren't going to jump out and grab me for something I'm not publishing.

They shouldn't...but that other company is really sneaky so the Pinkertons could be watching and waiting....

But in all seriousness, even mixing and matching older variations of monsters into a campaign with new can create variants so players don't have an idea which version they are facing


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Just because someone evil doesn’t give an okay to use Slurs against, fictional or not. That’s like, kinda low bar basic right there.


I'll never forget the time Vildeis turned away from the rampaging demon horde to slay her followers who called them names.


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Apocalypse Riders sounds like a Mad Max gang, which is fun, and it leaves open the possibility of riding stuff besides horses. I don't see the issue.


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Xenocrat wrote:
I'll never forget the time Vildeis turned away from the rampaging demon horde to slay her followers who called them names.

That seems inefficient; you deal with that kind of behaviour by telling someone to stop it, which is MUCH quicker than killing the person. And also doesn't deprive you of resources.

Paizo Employee Community and Social Media Specialist

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Removed a baiting/inflammatory comment and a quote. Feel free to express your opinion, but be respectful while doing so.


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ornathopter wrote:
Apocalypse Riders sounds like a Mad Max gang, which is fun, and it leaves open the possibility of riding stuff besides horses. I don't see the issue.

The Apocalypso Riders, for instance, ride surfboards. If you ever hear steel drums at midnight, run.


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I mean the "Horsepeople of the Apocalypse" is a joke from Good Omens, since War is a lady and Death is neither male nor female.

Dark Archive

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Would anyone with the book mind checking some Tiny creature stat blocks?

I'd like to know if they started specifically listing the range of their melee attacks. Few tiny creatures had a listed melee reach of 0ft, especially in the OG Bestiaries.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I mean the "Horsepeople of the Apocalypse" is a joke from Good Omens, since War is a lady and Death is neither male nor female.

Yup that's the route I expected this to go. Like ... brand name recognition!

I admit I'd love to see art of Biker Girl Szuriel on a motorcycle though.

Xenocrat wrote:


I'll never forget the time Vildeis turned away from the rampaging demon horde to slay her followers who called them names.

Please tell me that didn't happen lol


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ectar wrote:

Would anyone with the book mind checking some Tiny creature stat blocks?

I'd like to know if they started specifically listing the range of their melee attacks. Few tiny creatures had a listed melee reach of 0ft, especially in the OG Bestiaries.

The Arbiter, Cacodaemon, Cassian, Compsognathus, Cythnigot, Draxie, Fey Dragonet, Homonculus, Imp, Jinkin, Lyrakien, Nosoi, Pipefox, Pugwampi, Raktavarna, Soulbound Doll, Sprigjack, Sprite, Tooth Fairy, Twigjack, Viper, and Voidworm all have reach 0 feet listed in their stat blocks.

The crawling hand is Tiny, but does NOT list its reach as 0 feet.

Liberty's Edge

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Ravingdork wrote:
The crawling hand is Tiny, but does NOT list its reach as 0 feet.

So you're saying that the crawling hands' reach surpasses its grasp?

*Not sorry

Dark Archive

Ravingdork wrote:
Ectar wrote:

Would anyone with the book mind checking some Tiny creature stat blocks?

I'd like to know if they started specifically listing the range of their melee attacks. Few tiny creatures had a listed melee reach of 0ft, especially in the OG Bestiaries.

The Arbiter, Cacodaemon, Cassian, Compsognathus, Cythnigot, Draxie, Fey Dragonet, Homonculus, Imp, Jinkin, Lyrakien, Nosoi, Pipefox, Pugwampi, Raktavarna, Soulbound Doll, Sprigjack, Sprite, Tooth Fairy, Twigjack, Viper, and Voidworm all have reach 0 feet listed in their stat blocks.

The crawling hand is Tiny, but does NOT list its reach as 0 feet.

An excellent outcome, considering most premaster Tiny creatures had no reach listed.

Liberty's Edge

I see a lot of changes, but there's one I worry about. The Mimic is listed as Legacy content. Did it get the axe as well? I had been working on an adventure for 2e that uses them.

Also, Starfinder will do a good job replacing the Doppleganger. They have the AStrazoan, which does almost everything the Doppleganger does.


Lord John Greyhawk wrote:

I see a lot of changes, but there's one I worry about. The Mimic is listed as Legacy content. Did it get the axe as well? I had been working on an adventure for 2e that uses them.

Also, Starfinder will do a good job replacing the Doppleganger. They have the AStrazoan, which does almost everything the Doppleganger does.

Archives of Nethys lists every monster as legacy at the moment. I don't have a copy of the book, but I imagine there's a 90% chance the mimic is gone, though.


The mimic is a pretty iconic D&D monster; I believe it's already been confirmed to be gone.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Lord John Greyhawk wrote:

I see a lot of changes, but there's one I worry about. The Mimic is listed as Legacy content. Did it get the axe as well? I had been working on an adventure for 2e that uses them.

Also, Starfinder will do a good job replacing the Doppleganger. They have the AStrazoan, which does almost everything the Doppleganger does.

You do realize you can still use the old mimic right? If you're writing your own adventure it is a none issue. Well, unless you wanted to publish it under ORC, I suppose, but you can still publish under the OGL right now and I have to imagine if you cared that much about ORC you'd have seen the removal of the mimic coming.

Liberty's Edge

Captain Morgan wrote:
Lord John Greyhawk wrote:

I see a lot of changes, but there's one I worry about. The Mimic is listed as Legacy content. Did it get the axe as well? I had been working on an adventure for 2e that uses them.

Also, Starfinder will do a good job replacing the Doppleganger. They have the AStrazoan, which does almost everything the Doppleganger does.

You do realize you can still use the old mimic right? If you're writing your own adventure it is a none issue. Well, unless you wanted to publish it under ORC, I suppose, but you can still publish under the OGL right now and I have to imagine if you cared that much about ORC you'd have seen the removal of the mimic coming.

I do have plans to publish under ORC rules, but probably falling under the rules for Pathfinder Infinite. If they don't have the Mimic any longer, I might just have to create something new.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Damn, and just when Frieren made the Mimic more popular than ever.

Kurai yo!
Kowai yo!

:p


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Oh… I just got that Cuckoo Hag’s are a Coraline Reference


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magnuskn wrote:

Damn, and just when Frieren made the Mimic more popular than ever.

Kurai yo!
Kowai yo!

:p

Gotta use the Dungeon Meshi mimics, where it's a giant hermit crab that uses empty chests as a shell. They go to open it, and the Rogue gets speared by a claw.


dirkdragonslayer wrote:
Gotta use the Dungeon Meshi mimics, where it's a giant hermit crab that uses empty chests as a shell. They go to open it, and the Rogue gets speared by a claw.

A giant trapdoor spider might also be a reasonable substitute.

Radiant Oath

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I've never been more pleased to be wrong about something! It turns out Sweet Hags AREN'T just Green Hags with a different name (I'd been led to believe this because Player Core indicated Callow May changelings, previously attributed to Green Hags, were now Sweet Hag offspring). Instead, they really ARE the Hansel-and-Gretel monstrosities I always wanted! And they're even MORE disturbing with their taffy flesh and gum drop eyes and candy cane claws! All the Remastered Hags are great!

Liberty's Edge

Lord John Greyhawk wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Lord John Greyhawk wrote:

I see a lot of changes, but there's one I worry about. The Mimic is listed as Legacy content. Did it get the axe as well? I had been working on an adventure for 2e that uses them.

Also, Starfinder will do a good job replacing the Doppleganger. They have the AStrazoan, which does almost everything the Doppleganger does.

You do realize you can still use the old mimic right? If you're writing your own adventure it is a none issue. Well, unless you wanted to publish it under ORC, I suppose, but you can still publish under the OGL right now and I have to imagine if you cared that much about ORC you'd have seen the removal of the mimic coming.
I do have plans to publish under ORC rules, but probably falling under the rules for Pathfinder Infinite. If they don't have the Mimic any longer, I might just have to create something new.

IIRC there is some complexity in using ORC and Pathfinder Infinite. There was a thread about it a few months ago. I will try to find it.

Liberty's Edge

The Raven Black wrote:
Lord John Greyhawk wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Lord John Greyhawk wrote:

I see a lot of changes, but there's one I worry about. The Mimic is listed as Legacy content. Did it get the axe as well? I had been working on an adventure for 2e that uses them.

Also, Starfinder will do a good job replacing the Doppleganger. They have the AStrazoan, which does almost everything the Doppleganger does.

You do realize you can still use the old mimic right? If you're writing your own adventure it is a none issue. Well, unless you wanted to publish it under ORC, I suppose, but you can still publish under the OGL right now and I have to imagine if you cared that much about ORC you'd have seen the removal of the mimic coming.
I do have plans to publish under ORC rules, but probably falling under the rules for Pathfinder Infinite. If they don't have the Mimic any longer, I might just have to create something new.
IIRC there is some complexity in using ORC and Pathfinder Infinite. There was a thread about it a few months ago. I will try to find it.

This blog post actually.


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The Raven Black wrote:
This blog post actually.

Effectively the thread, since it's only in the thread that they explained "you can use Paizo original content without having to reference the OGL, just be aware that you could easily mess up because there's a lot of things you might not expect that we didn't invent and copyright law is always more complicated than you think" free of legalese.


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GM_3826 wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
This blog post actually.
Effectively the thread, since it's only in the thread that they explained "you can use Paizo original content without having to reference the OGL, just be aware that you could easily mess up because there's a lot of things you might not expect that we didn't invent and copyright law is always more complicated than you think" free of legalese.

Makes sense to have that warning, it's hard to track who owns what, so it's always a risk. I still can't get over some things like Ettin being a D&Dism; 2-headed giants existed in myth, Ettin is an old world for giant, but using Ettin to specifically refer to a 2-headed giant was a D&D invention. It's popped up in so many video game RPGs, but I never knew. Feels like something that always existed, not something from the 80s.


Read my copy of Monster Core...loved it.

The Hags are terrific!

I hope Monster Core 2 has all the creatures mentioned in sidebars e.g. moon hags. (Don't tease us, Paizo. That would be cruel...like the Godsrain prophecies. Oh, nevermind. )

I wish the explanation for Kami next to the Poracha entry had been referenced next to the Oni entries.

Quick questions for anyone:

Are Cloud Giants still 18 feet tall? (They were the only giant whose height was omitted.)
How tall are Oni?
How tall are Cyclops and Great Cyclops?

If giant Octopi have communities/villages and communicate with each other, should they have higher Intelligences?

Can anything be done to help Goblin Dogs with their dander/mange/whatever it has?


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scary harpy wrote:
I hope Monster Core 2...

I'm skeptical that there will be a Monster Core 2. Before the OGL nonsense necessitated a change in priorities for Paizo they'd moved away from generalized bestiaries in favor of more thematic books that include a bestiary for that theme.

scary harpy wrote:
Can anything be done to help Goblin Dogs with their dander/mange/whatever it has?

I have managed to accidentally create a concoction that will surely treat the worst dander conditions known on Golarion! All I have to do is analyze this concoction to figure out how to replicate it and...

{goblin lab assistant drinks the concoction}

Well $#!%.

Dark Archive

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Nintendogeek01 wrote:
scary harpy wrote:
I hope Monster Core 2...
I'm skeptical that there will be a Monster Core 2. Before the OGL nonsense necessitated a change in priorities for Paizo they'd moved away from generalized bestiaries in favor of more thematic books that include a bestiary for that theme.

I hope this doesn't remain true. I'm much more likely to buy something akin to a Bestiary than to buy a theme book with a bestiary in it. The latter are just less useful to me. Fewer monsters and with an underlying theme, you tend to get less variety.

Bestiary 3 released in April 2021 with 324 monster entries.
Since then, there have been 167 monster printed in the Rulebooks line with an additional 75 across the Lost Omens books. 242 monsters in just about 3 years is a pretty slow drip.
(I'm intentionally leaving out monsters printed in APs, assuming the rate of monsters being printed in APs is basically the same now as before they stopped printing bestiaries)


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I think the reason they're doing theme books with monsters in them instead of bestiaries is that something like Rage of Elements is going to sell much better because it has player options in it, since mostly just GMs will buy books that are solely monsters.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
I think the reason they're doing theme books with monsters in them instead of bestiaries is that something like Rage of Elements is going to sell much better because it has player options in it, since mostly just GMs will buy books that are solely monsters.

I believe we've even been told this previously, but I've got no idea where at.


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And also full mechanical book can basically be fully accessed via AoN, thus reducing sale.


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Nintendogeek01 wrote:
scary harpy wrote:
I hope Monster Core 2...
I'm skeptical that there will be a Monster Core 2. Before the OGL nonsense necessitated a change in priorities for Paizo they'd moved away from generalized bestiaries in favor of more thematic books that include a bestiary for that theme.

From the Remaster Project's FAQ page:

Pathfinder 2nd Edition Remaster FAQ wrote:

"Will there be more Remastered Core books to come? What about Monster Core 2 or Player Core 3?"

It’s very likely that we will continue to update and remaster the Bestiaries in the future, but for now we are focusing on the four announced books as well as Paizo’s regular schedule of Pathfinder releases. Publishing 100% new material remains Paizo’s primary focus, and we look forward to upcoming releases like Pathfinder Rage of Elements, Lost Omens Tian Xia World Guide and Character Guide, our monthly Adventure Path installments, and other exciting projects we have yet to announce.

So a Monster Core 2 is likely to happen eventually, but that hypothetical book won't be interrupting the production workflow in the same way the other 4 Core books did. We're probably over a year or two off from ever seeing a MC2.

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