Why is Diverse Lore Thaumaturge Level 1 Feat so powerful long term then Bardic Lore, Loremaster Lord or that Folk-Hero Lore? It starts off slight behind a +3 Int Bard with Bardic Lore. At a mere -1 till level 3, which then bumps Esoteric Lore to Expert with means it has an innate +1 over the bard. You can Mitigate this with using the Tome Implement to grant a innate +1 bonus to your Recall Knowledges making your innately higher Recall Stat cancel out the penalty making you on par till level 3 to the bard or any other general Recall Knowledge Lores.
Is there a real purpose not to take the Diverse Lore as a feat?
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It is more integral to the class than Bardic Lore. We already saw what happens when you have a skill-based martial that can fail a lot. So they designed the Thaumaturge skill-based mechanic to not fail like the Swashbuckler.
Its a good feat that makes the thaumaturge good at the general special lore niche. But you have to remember that is the classes's actual niche. They literally manifest lore into the world that didn't otherwise exist (i.e., make up personal antithesis like this troll hates the smell of my specifically yellow socks)
But they fall behind others when it comes to specific knowledge roll skills vs. INT/WIS based casters that invest in them. You can also do things as a INT based caster to roflstomp the thaumaturge in single skills and special general lores if you want.
The biggest issue is that the community typically makes an incorrect assumption that casters are the defacto RK/General Lore 'masters' without any more investment than a few skill bumps. That is really only true because most martials don't invest in or have good INT/WIS/CHA stats. So when a martial class that is good at those things comes along it ends up causing a gap between bad community assumptions and reality.
Really you have to invest in it just like the thaumaturge. Thaumaturges are giving up multiple stat boosts they don't need (e.g., to go from 18 to 20 or 22), implement selection/order, and a L1 feat to try and keep up (which they don't).
To substantiate this position I made up all the calculations you'd need in this spreadsheet..
The sheet shows that various casters that 'invest' in being better than then the 'thaumaturge with diverse lore boogeyman' simply are. Of course as a thaumaturge you can do similar things to hyper optimize but that isn't really the complaint people have (i.e., that they can with a single L1 feat steal the show). Just look at the summary tab and the optimized FA build and you can see what you can really do as a non-thaumaturge to take the crown.
As for why you wouldn't take it. Divine Disharmony allows you to make an enemy flatfooted at range. That greatly increases DPR for the class since most of the damage isn't from a stat, but from your class features, so simply 'hitting' is more important than anything else. If you need ammunition thaumaturgy, you'd want that. But yeah, it is probably the best L1 feat they have.
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ElementalofCuteness wrote: Is there a real purpose not to take the Diverse Lore as a feat? It's overpowered and makes the game not fun when you can just know everything.
It's also annoying as a GM when a player wants to use Esoteric Lore in place of a different lore skill when I didn't say it was a Recall Knowledge check.
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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Cordell Kintner wrote: It's overpowered and makes the game not fun when you can just know everything. But you don't get to "Just know everything" you get to somewhat reliably succeed at checks to get fed whatever information the GM wants to feed you. Recall Knowledge as an action is highly restrictive and entirely within the GM purview. There is no possible way to abuse it (unless the GM chooses to give that to the player, which isn't really abuse).
It's only really 'overpowered' in the sense that a lot of knowledge based options in PF2 are written really badly, but not really the thaumaturge's fault.
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Diverse Lore is power creep over weak abilities; they really should have buffed Bardic Lore to scale at the same rate.
Basically is there a reason? Can as a GM not make the DC low enough to make the other general lores better or would that kill off Diverse Lore as a level 1 feat if you can just be as good with the other 2-3 General everything lore?
I mean, any Intelligence caster can pick up Loremaster at level 2 and he will be just -2 (or even just -1 in later levels) compared to a Thaum. Plus the ability to reroll knowledge checks as free action, making them as free actions, or even make 5 of them on later levels if needed.
As for bard, I don't mind that bardic knowledge is weaker since bard already has so much other stuff to offer either way.
In gameplay, I don't mind if there's a character in a group that can simply say every time i present something "can I recall on that?" since that just gives me more options to give background information to the players.
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All that said, while i am not unhappy that Diverse lore exists, I do think that level 1 is kinda early, and I would have probably put it around level 6-8 instead.
I have to reiterate that if someone wants to be better at recall knowledge in specific (arcana, nature, occultism, and religion) or general (i.e., special lores) they can with investment. That is a good thing. People who specialize and invest resources can be good at the thing they invest in. Again see the first two tabs of my spreadsheet for the math sumamry and results.
- Tab 1 is multiple cases testing specific RK skills with averages of the thaumaturge being behind by an effective modifier of 2.68 to 4.48 (across all 20 levels) and generalist lore the thaumaturge being ahead an average modifier of -0.42 to 1.16 (across all 20 levels).
- Tab 2 shows a specific non-thaumaturge build that is ahead of the thaumaturge by an average modifier of 2.0 to 4.9 (across all 20 levels) for both specific and special general lore skills.
It bears repeating but 'recall knowledge' isn't applying the skill. All 4 base RK type skills have other defined skill uses which Diverse Lore won't help with in addition to other abstract skill applications (e.g., being able to physically pick and extract poison from a specific berry without inhaling its air spores). As well all lore skills come with the ability to apply the lore. Diverse lore won't help replace sailing lore when you need a sailor to sail the boat and simply knowing about rigging/sails/knotts doesn't let you actually sail the boat. People over estimate the breadth and applicability of recall knowledge. The skill largely lets you engage with the lore/information a GM naturally wants to share to forward the narrative. Having GM'd for tons of meat head parties with no 'roll for highly critical exposition' skills, I think it is good that there is a class that fills the niche. Rogue is skill monkey general, investigator finds out information through careful study of clues, and the thaumaturge comes knowing a bunch of weird niche information that may just be useful. All are great and different expressions of the 'skill monkey' roll in a party.
The bard doesn't need a buff. It is probably the strongest base caster class in the game.
What diverse lore allows for is an easy low hanging fruit for someone to be 'the second best' at RK checks in any party composition. That allows them to aid the primary roller OR help if someone can't make the session/fails their roll. The feat isn't overrated, it just solidifies and intended niche of the thaumaturge to 'know a bunch of esoteric random tidbits of information'. It isn't overpowered and was a much needed boon to RK, which was one of the least engaged with rule subsets in the game because of how poorly it was worded prior to remaster.
shroudb wrote: I mean, any Intelligence caster can pick up Loremaster at level 2 and he will be just -2 (or even just -1 in later levels) compared to a Thaum. Plus the ability to reroll knowledge checks as free action, making them as free actions, or even make 5 of them on later levels if needed. Loremaster Lore reaches Expert at level 15, assuming you become Legendary in Society or something. At the same time, Esoteric Lore becomes Legendary automatically, and from then on you're at -4 when Recalling on a creature, and -2 when recalling anything else. Unless you use Assurance, then you're -4, since Assurance ignores the penalty Diverse Lore gives.
You also need to invest additional feats to get those extra actions you mentioned, while Thaumaturges only have to invest the single feat.
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Cordell Kintner wrote: shroudb wrote: I mean, any Intelligence caster can pick up Loremaster at level 2 and he will be just -2 (or even just -1 in later levels) compared to a Thaum. Plus the ability to reroll knowledge checks as free action, making them as free actions, or even make 5 of them on later levels if needed. Loremaster Lore reaches Expert at level 15, assuming you become Legendary in Society or something. At the same time, Esoteric Lore becomes Legendary automatically, and from then on you're at -4 when Recalling on a creature, and -2 when recalling anything else. Unless you use Assurance, then you're -4, since Assurance ignores the penalty Diverse Lore gives.
You also need to invest additional feats to get those extra actions you mentioned, while Thaumaturges only have to invest the single feat. This isn't accurate.
If you want to be better than a thaumaturge you just need to actually invest in it. That is how the game is supposed to work. Those that invest can be better. You can't just expect that a caster who takes one feat at L2 and scales their INT will be the 'master of all knowledge'. That isn't investment. That is less investment then the thaumaturge that is spending multiple attribute bumps against their best interest a L1 feat, and forcing specific subclass option picks to their detriment of in combat capabilities/options. The class is a skill monkey so of course it can be good at being skilled. Its niche is generalist lore.
Its like you're complaining that a barbarian is too powerful because it can rage. No, that is a defining feature. If literally any class could beat it at one of its primary class identities by taking a L2 archetype dedication I think that would be very dissatisfying and poor game design.
Way caster can invest to be better:
1.) Intelligence as the KAS and casting stat will be higher than the thaumaturge for a well optimized build since the class doesn't need a high CHA to 'do its thing' in combat unless you're using one of the two DC implements (wand and bell?). That means that vs. a combat optimized thaumaturge you're usually +1 to +3 better in your modifier vs. them (+1 for L1-L5, +0 for L6 to L9, +1 for L10-L16, +2 L17-L19, +3 for L20). If you disagree then you have to know that the thaumaturge is wasting 2-3 stat boosts, an apex item, and implement order selections to tread the same water.
2.) Diverse lore puts most things at -2 so even if it scales faster it is designed to be widely only '1 proficiency bump' ahead at any time. That means when a loremaster lore is trained you're at best 'expert' at L7. When you go to legendary at L15 you're at effectively 'master' at L15.
3.) Caster's have easy access to skilled/independent/second opinion familiars to give an easy +1 circumstance bonus that basically keeps pace until L17 when it might go to +2 from the tome implement.
4.) Casters have access to a number of spells/focus spells that make it easier to buff. Things like pocket library, the dreams domain L1 focus spell, and the knowledge domain L1 focus spell, etc. and can easily burn lower level slots to be doing these recall knowledge checks with +1 to +4 status bonuses for much of the game.
Beyond all of that INT will also work for arcana and occultism really well making you more broadly able to deal with INT based things that recall knowledge can't possibly deal with. For example some traps/haunts/environmental effects require arcana/occultism/a lore skill to disarm them (NOT recall knowledge, but application of the skill).
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Red Griffyn wrote:
Its like you're complaining that a barbarian is too powerful because it can rage. No, that is a defining feature. If literally any class could beat it at one of its primary class identities by taking a L2 archetype dedication I think that would be very dissatisfying and poor game design.
Recall knowledge is no single classes defining feature, as almost all classes need to have access to that knowledge.
Recall Knowledge is also not the thaumaturges primary class identity.
I do feel that Paizo making the Thaumaturge's lore features tied to Charisma was a mistake. Charisma is already a particularly powerful stat, with a number of excellent abilites keyed from it. Making it a key driver for a knowledge skill does undermine Intelligence a good deal.
That said, both the Thaumurge and Diverse lore are utterly fine. They aren't the problem.
Its that Paizo has generally dropped the ball with making Recall Knowledge an accessible and rewarding activity for some Int based classes. The Wizard, the most academic and knowledge themed of all classes, has a single interaction with Recall Knowledge - and it just came out in the remaster. And takes a critical success to work...
Cordell Kintner wrote: shroudb wrote: I mean, any Intelligence caster can pick up Loremaster at level 2 and he will be just -2 (or even just -1 in later levels) compared to a Thaum. Plus the ability to reroll knowledge checks as free action, making them as free actions, or even make 5 of them on later levels if needed. Loremaster Lore reaches Expert at level 15, assuming you become Legendary in Society or something. At the same time, Esoteric Lore becomes Legendary automatically, and from then on you're at -4 when Recalling on a creature, and -2 when recalling anything else. Unless you use Assurance, then you're -4, since Assurance ignores the penalty Diverse Lore gives.
You also need to invest additional feats to get those extra actions you mentioned, while Thaumaturges only have to invest the single feat. Single class feat being 2 above than single archetype feat seems ok to me. Especially since said archetype allows further specialization.
As I said, the ability feels pretty ok powerwise for the main thing of a class, although imo it comes online a little bit earlier than what I would consider perfect.
Archetype feats are class feats, plus Loremaster still requires investment in a skill that can Decipher Writing, meaning you're spending a class feat and 4 of your skill boosts (including your first Legendary boost) just to be 10% worse than a Thaumaturge who took a single class feat.
I agree with Robot above, the Int based classes need more feats that interact with Recall Knowledge. Currently, Investigators are the only class that gets a bunch of them, even though we also have Alchemist, Inventor, Rogue, Witch and Wizard all having Int as a key stat.
Cordell Kintner wrote: Archetype feats are class feats, plus Loremaster still requires investment in a skill that can Decipher Writing, meaning you're spending a class feat and 4 of your skill boosts (including your first Legendary boost) just to be 10% worse than a Thaumaturge who took a single class feat.
I agree with Robot above, the Int based classes need more feats that interact with Recall Knowledge. Currently, Investigators are the only class that gets a bunch of them, even though we also have Alchemist, Inventor, Rogue, Witch and Wizard all having Int as a key stat.
Archetype feats while they are bought using class feats are generally weaker than respective class feats of the same level. We can see that as the vast majority of archetypes which grant class feats grant them at a later level than the respective class feat is.
For loremaster, it's at the same bonus give or take until level 7 and then -2 afterwards and then (for Int classes) -1 from 17+. That's acceptable imo.
As pointed in the math above, anyone who wants to specialize in knowledges, trumps Thaumaturge. Thaumaturge, like Loremaster, are the easy "1 feat to be generally good" options, and they are close enough imo that it doesn't matter a lot.
Also, don't get me wrong, If you look at various of my posts, I agree that Int as a stat is in a bad place, but that's not because of Diverse lore.
One of the reasons why Int is weak is indeed a severe lack of great skill feats tied to Int skills indeed, regardless of class, that should help quite a bit the Int classes imo.
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Why are you saying it's -1 at 17? Thaumaturges get Apex items too you know.
At level 2, when you get Loremaster Dedication, you would have a +8 while Thaumaturges have a +6 for general RK. This is the only time you're ever better than a Thaumaturge.
At levels 3-6, a Loremaster would be equal to a Thaumaturge.
At level 7, the Thaumaturge becomes a Master, making them +15 while a Loremaster is only +13. From here on out, the Thaumaturge is always better than the Loremaster at general RK. They also will likely be increasing their Cha at the same rate as the Loremaster's Int, so ability modifiers are irrelevant.
Yes, the Loremaster gets a couple feats that increase action economy, but remember that Diverse Lore also allows them to use the result of their Exploit check as a RK check, which also saves them on action economy. Not to mention, since they're using RK on a creature, they have +4 over a Loremaster.
Plus, action economy means nothing outside an Encounter. The only Loremaster feat that matters outside an Encounter is Loremaster's Etude, which for a focus point gives you advantage on one check. This can help for very important checks, but can't be done constantly. The Thaumaturge still has a +10% chance over the Loremaster for general purpose checks.
The point I am trying to make here is that we shouldn't have to dump multiple class feats and tons of money into magical items just to be on par with a single class feat from an overtuned class.
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Diverse Lore isn't overpowered, the other similar feats are just way undertuned.
I'm struggling to think of why characters and players having information is a bad thing.Can someone please explain?
Cordell Kintner wrote: Why are you saying it's -1 at 17? Thaumaturges get Apex items too you know.
At level 2, when you get Loremaster Dedication, you would have a +8 while Thaumaturges have a +6 for general RK. This is the only time you're ever better than a Thaumaturge.
At levels 3-6, a Loremaster would be equal to a Thaumaturge.
At level 7, the Thaumaturge becomes a Master, making them +15 while a Loremaster is only +13. From here on out, the Thaumaturge is always better than the Loremaster at general RK. They also will likely be increasing their Cha at the same rate as the Loremaster's Int, so ability modifiers are irrelevant.
Yes, the Loremaster gets a couple feats that increase action economy, but remember that Diverse Lore also allows them to use the result of their Exploit check as a RK check, which also saves them on action economy. Not to mention, since they're using RK on a creature, they have +4 over a Loremaster.
Plus, action economy means nothing outside an Encounter. The only Loremaster feat that matters outside an Encounter is Loremaster's Etude, which for a focus point gives you advantage on one check. This can help for very important checks, but can't be done constantly. The Thaumaturge still has a +10% chance over the Loremaster for general purpose checks.
The point I am trying to make here is that we shouldn't have to dump multiple class feats and tons of money into magical items just to be on par with a single class feat from an overtuned class.
Thaumaturge will not go for a Cha Apex item, he will go for his main attack stat, either Str or Dex, while an Int main character will go for Int Apex item.
That's why it's -1
You don't have to dump multiple feats to be on par, you do have the option to dump feats/items to be quite above diverse lore though.
As far as action evonomy goes, a free RK every round beats a free RK when you already spend an action that's max 1/round. That's within the encounters. But, it does costs feats to get there indeed, I just find the option to take said feats existing to be an upside by iteself.
I acknowledge the 10% difference, but for a general "be generally ok with recalls for 1 feat (for both Loremaster and Diverse)" I don't find it that massive of a difference to be so "gamebreaking" as some posts elude to.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Grankless wrote: Diverse Lore isn't overpowered, the other similar feats are just way undertuned.
I'm struggling to think of why characters and players having information is a bad thing.Can someone please explain?
I don't have a problem with Diverse Lore myself, but I think there are two camps of opposition:
1. Interparty balance. The thaumaturge is just really strong in a lot of areas, tending to be 2nd best in just about everything.
2. Some GMs really dislike sharing too much information because they like players being surprised or they find it too meta for some reason.
Captain Morgan wrote: 2. Some GMs really dislike sharing too much information because they like players being surprised or they find it too meta for some reason. I think there are also some that dislike being forced to come up with 2 pieces of information for every fail check thanks to Dubious Knowledge... I've played with people that had a hard time coming up with 'wrong' answers.
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