Adjudicating Wall of Stone


Rules Discussion


Due to a conversation about walls, I came to look closely at Wall of Stone specifically. And this spell is a nightmare to adjudicate as a GM: there are tons of unclear rules around it and depending on how you rule them you can make the spell overpowered or close to unplayable.

Wall of Stone: You shape a wall of solid stone. You create a 1-inch-thick wall of stone up to 120 feet long, and 20 feet high. You can shape the wall's path, placing each 5 feet of the wall on the border between squares. The wall doesn't need to stand vertically, so you can use it to form a bridge or set of stairs, for example. You must conjure the wall in an unbroken open space so its edges don't pass through any creatures or objects, or the spell is lost.

Each 10-foot-by-10-foot section of the wall has AC 10, Hardness 14, and 50 Hit Points, and it's immune to critical hits and precision damage. A destroyed section of the wall can be moved through, but the rubble created from it is difficult terrain.

Walls: Spells that create walls list the depth, length, and height of the wall, also specifying how it can be positioned. Some walls can be shaped; you can manipulate the wall into a form other than a straight line, choosing its contiguous path square by square. The path of a shaped wall can’t enter the same space more than once, but it can double back so one section is adjacent to another section of the wall.

Among the things needing adjudication:
- What is an object? On paper, even a small rock is an object. Being nitpicky about this point can lead to the spell being nearly unusable.
- What is passing "through" a creature? You obviously can't pass through their space but from the space and size rules: Sometimes part of a creature extends beyond its space, such as if a giant octopus is grabbing you with its tentacles. For example a guard with a Longspear is definitely extending beyond it's space. But how do you rule what creature is extending beyond its space and what creature isn't?
- Can the ceiling "break" the space if it's less than 20-foot high?
- How do you handle this part of the Walls rule: The path of a shaped wall can’t enter the same space more than once. Considering that Wall of Stone is supposed to be positioned on the border between squares, it's hard to determine what the "same space" refers to. Also, can you make a prison with the wall?
- What if the ground is not flat? I see so many possible answers to this question, from the wall that follows the relief to the one that extends 20-foot high from the lowest point to the one that ends up partly mid-air to the GM who forbids such casting...

A GM who answers no to all these questions will make the spell nearly unusable. On the other side, a GM who answers yes to all these questions will make the spell completely broken: For example, you could make 2 rings of wall around any large size or smaller creature forcing it to break through 2 layers of wall to escape. So you basically eliminate from the fight any creature that can't cast Dimension Door 5 without even a save: Definitely broken.


How easy it is to climb the wall? For comparison, simple DCs:
Master | ceiling with handholds and footholds, rock wall
Legendary | smooth surface
I don't think that a player saying 'my stone wall is very smooth' is unreasonable.

I for example think that creating a 20x20x20 box with a 'roof' is perfectly within the rules (4 20x20 vertical sections and one horizontal on top, as 'The wall doesn't need to stand vertically, so you can use it to form a bridge or set of stairs, for example').


You're right, another question is the DC to Climb it as it may be the solution for a lot of enemies. A Large creature with 10-foot reach can just grab the top of the wall so for them it should be easy. But medium creatures will certainly have to roll a check.


SuperBidi wrote:
A GM who answers no to all these questions will make the spell nearly unusable. On the other side, a GM who answers yes to all these questions will make the spell completely broken

Dear newbie, welcome to Pathfinder. There a few spells like this that are just unclear and Paizo have just declined to clarify them. It is every GM for themselves, and Paizo seem fine with that.


Thanks for the newbie ;)

Also, the goal of such a thread is to get everyone's point of view so I can adjudicate it with a good knowledge of both the impact of my ruling and the general position of people on this spell.

As I GM PFS adventures, it's important for me to know the general position as I'm pretty sure I'll get some pushback if I rule it too far away.


I mean, the advice I would give to anyone asking the above questions is maybe just don't be an a-hole of a GM, or don't play with one who is? It reads like a "top ways to eff your players trying to cast Wall of Stone" list. If you're GMing for PFS, my experience has been to just go with the flow unless a player is clearly trying to pull one over on you. Try to strike a balance halfway between cream-puff and despot


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Baarogue wrote:
I mean, the advice I would give to anyone asking the above questions is maybe just don't be an a-hole of a GM, or don't play with one who is?

Yeah, that's my thought on it too. If the GM wants to rule that the game doesn't work, then the game doesn't work and you should stop playing it with them.

PF2 does not support an antagonistic relationship between players and GM. All the players at the table should be working together to create an awesome story and have fun while doing it.

Silver Crusade

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In practice, I've never seen any issues with it. Players don't try and get silly, GMs are reasonable.

What is an object? It pretty much is something significant on the map. A table almost certainly counts, a chair may or may not.

What is passing through a creature? Passing through the creatures actual space on the battle map, NOT its reach. Anything else makes it unusable

Can the ceiling "break" the space? Wall grows to the ceiling and stops there.

Entering space more than once? This is the only place where I've actually seen an issue. Most people seem to allow a prison but not a double prison.

What if the ground is not flat? Wall follows the ground. Otherwise there are too many edge cases that I don't want to worry about.

Its a useful spell for sure. Fairly recently used it to avoid a TPK (put US into a prison to give us a couple of rounds to frantically regroup). But I don't think its overpowered for its level. At level 9+ many monsters are going to make VERY short work of its hardness 14 50 hit points.


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"The path of a shaped wall can’t enter the same space more than once, but it can double back so one section is adjacent to another section of the wall."

That bit does bother me a fair amount.

It almost seems like being able to "spiral" the wall around a single creature is RAI, and with 120ft distance, that's an absurd number of layers that would need to be destroyed to escape.

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However, with the reading that "space" != "square" the spell is more balanced.

The border of a square is its own space, and can only hold one layer of wall. Instead, the "power" use would be something akin to raising the border grid of the map squares so that each 5ft of enemy progress required a wall break.

That, IMO, makes the spell interesting, balanced enough, and involved in it's use.

Having an ally use a 3-action Ring of the Ram to knock back the most isolated foe, then raise the wall between all the squares, minus the PC's tunnel to the closest foe, is strong play, but I think one that works with the R5 spell and 3 action cost.

----------

Even as close to RAW as possible, it is one of the strongest spells, no doubt. The obstruction being mutual helps a little, but not much.

For a no save "it just works" spell, there's just too many shenanigans it can combo with to break things in the PCs favor, IMO. From burrow speed to buff stalling, ect. Even passwall can enable the party to 4v1 each foe at their whim.

It is surprising how little it's changed from back in 3.5


Thanks Baroogue and Finoan for your general GMing advice, but they don't help me much in this situation. Being an a-hole of a GM often comes from different expectations between players and GM. Nearly every GM can become one unwillingly by applying a rule the players consider unfair.

Thanks a lot Paul for your return of experience, it helps a lot.

For once, I agree with you, Trip. I also find Wall of Stone and the fact that you can choose its shape to be easily exploitable. There's the concept of reciprocity that can be applied in such situations: How would you feel if the GM started using Wall of Stone around your low damage characters (Cleric, Rogue) to wall them out of the fight?
And if I had to answer the question, I'd find that quite unsettling even without using shenanigans like double walling (with double walling it's just straight up unfair).


SuperBidi wrote:
Thanks Baroogue and Finoan for your general GMing advice, but they don't help me much in this situation. Being an a-hole of a GM often comes from different expectations between players and GM.

Well, if you were only bringing up reasonable rulings for the spell, then I could see that.

But I don't see how it is reasonable to rule that a pebble, or a sloped bit of ground, or the ceiling is too low would be enough to cause the spell to fail to cast.

The rest all make the spell fall between 'very useful' and 'quite useful' in any of the ruling options mentioned. If the GM only allows one closed loop of the wall to make a prison, that is quite useful. If they allow a double loop when the spell has enough length, then that is even better. If the GM prevents casting the spell between a creature with a tentacle and the victim that it has grabbed so that the grapple is broken automatically, I can see that as reasonable - and the spell is still useful to prevent the grabbing in the first place if cast soon enough.

So a reasonable GM is going to rule that the spell is useful - that it has practical in-game use for what the character wants to do with it as long as that is in line with what the spell describes itself as being able to do.

Only unreasonable GMs are going to give those unreasonable rulings that you are mentioning. That isn't a matter of different expectations. The reasonable expectation is that spells should work as described, or they should be banned by the GM. Not allowed and then nerf'ed into ineffectiveness through tricky readings of rules.


Finoan wrote:
But I don't see how it is reasonable to rule that a pebble, or a sloped bit of ground, or the ceiling is too low would be enough to cause the spell to fail to cast.

Many of my examples were chosen to show how the rules as written can be interpreted in an absurd way. I thought I was rather clear when stating that a GM that says no to all these questions would make the spell unusable that my goal was to find the proper middle ground.

Finoan wrote:
If the GM only allows one closed loop of the wall to make a prison, that is quite useful. If they allow a double loop when the spell has enough length, then that is even better.

A level 9 monster with High damage would need 5 attacks (2 rounds) to get out of a single loop. That's a lot. In case of double loop, it's as good as dead as it won't escape before the fight is over.

Qualifying double loops as "even better" is in my opinion an understatement. Eliminating a same level enemy without a check is much closer to "way overpowered". That's why I ask these questions, in my opinion this spell ruled in a very liberal way trivializes fights.


Assuming that the enemy doesn't climb, fly, jump, burrow, or Dimension Door out of the prison. So yes, there is no roll involved. But there is no guarantee that the creature will be forced to go through the wall either.

Is this double layered wall ring the only scenario that you are seeing as 'too good'? Because that is something that the GM and the players should just have a conversation about.

I will note that the rules for wall placement being able to double back on itself is a general rule for all walls, so it may not have been written with Wall of Stone in mind specifically - though I haven't found any other wall spell that allows shaping the path. So there is that too. But the point with this is that the wording of the rule for doubling back is referencing walls placed in squares rather than walls placed on space edges. Not that I think it prevents a closed area from being walled in.

So maybe just a ruling that "The path of a shaped wall can’t enter the same space more than once" when applied to a wall that instead exists on space edges means that the wall can't connect to the same intersection of edges that is already occupied - so no more than two edges from any intersection can be occupied by wall. So you could make one big loop, or make a maze-type structure that doesn't fully close - somewhere along the way there will be an opening. Though with creative placement, it may still take quite a few actions to run through the path from the center to the outside again.

But again that is something that can be left up to the table to decide on.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Quote:
- How do you handle this part of the Walls rule: The path of a shaped wall can’t enter the same space more than once. Considering that Wall of Stone is supposed to be positioned on the border between squares, it's hard to determine what the "same space" refers to. Also, can you make a prison with the wall?

So without wanting to get too bogged down in the broader implications... I'm pretty sure the correct answer here is that you don't.

The rule tells you how to handle walls entering spaces, which has nothing to do with a spell that doesn't do that in the first place.

It's like quoting the rules for persistent damage and asking how they apply to Fireballs.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Here is a diagram with three examples of stone giant sorcerers using wall of stone against a party of six in various ways.

Example 1: Wild zig zag to divide and delay the heroes.

Example 2: A spiral designed to keep a single hero trapped as long as possible.

Example 3: An organized zig-zag double back designed to trap a hero in a natural alcove for as long as possible.

I believe all three to be RAW legal, though they may not be as optimized as possible. (I made this really quick!)

Hopefully it will help further discussion on this topic.

(I'd say more about my own thoughts, but my family is demanding I join them for dinner, which is why this was so rushed.)


Ravingdork wrote:

Here is a diagram with three examples of stone giant sorcerers using wall of stone against a party of six in various ways.

Example 1: Wild zig zag to divide and delay the heroes.

Example 2: A spiral designed to keep a single hero trapped as long as possible.

Example 3: An organized zig-zag double back designed to trap a hero in a natural alcove for as long as possible.

I believe all three to be RAW legal, though they may not be as optimized as possible. (I made this really quick!)

Hopefully it will help further discussion on this topic.

(I'd say more about my own thoughts, but my family is demanding I join them for dinner, which is why this was so rushed.)

Example 1 arguably enters the same space twice because it's meant to be on the grid lines and thus crosses itself by the armored character at the upper right - but not having the 5 foot section poking out towards the giant on the right would solve that.

Example 2 has a similar issue as drawn because 2 layers of wall are shown on the lower side of the character at the center - one layer there makes it golden, though, too.

And Example 3 is 100% good as-is.

Usually where these discussions become a problem is quibbling over whether or not "box" configurations are possible by creative interpretations of the phrasing of how you can create the shapes you can create and pretending the words "wall", "bridge" and "stairs" inherently imply a "box."

But to the more general topic of the thread: I think this is one of those things that gets blown out of proportion because most people on both sides of the game are going to be able to intuitively and cooperatively resolve the player asking if they can do a particular thing with the spell and the GM providing their answer - just like how there are so many recorded stories of having happened even when what the player asked is genuinely not at all what the spell says it can do but the GM thinks its cool and says yes anyways.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You mean Examples A, B, and C? :P

I've never known anyone to disallow the box, and I think meeting at the corners is fine, otherwise the box would be impossible.

The double wall in Example B is explicitly allowed, per SuperBidi's rules quote above.

Walls wrote:
The path of a shaped wall can’t enter the same space more than once, but it can double back so one section is adjacent to another section of the wall.

That's also a good reason for allowing the meeting at corners. Doubling back and being adjacent would be impossible otherwise.

Edit: It seems some of the tokens are covering up the grid numbers in Example A. I'll fix that tomorrow and re-upload.


Finoan wrote:
Is this double layered wall ring the only scenario that you are seeing as 'too good'?

If you allow prisons/boxes, I'm not so sure...

Considering the wall 14 Hardness and 50 hit points and level 9 characters:
- Occult and Divine casters can't get out of a prison.
- Non-Thief Dex based martials can't get out of a prison (they'd do 3d6+2+Str damage against a Hardness of 14 so it will take them minutes to carve their path through it).
- Thieves will need 7 rounds to get out if they have an Elemental Rune, otherwise they won't be able to get out in a timely manner.
- Longsword Paladins will need 4-5 rounds to get out (with the Elemental Rune, otherwise it's a dozen of them).
- Guisarme Fighters will need 3 rounds (with Elemental Rune).
- Giant Barbarians will need 2 rounds (they can do it in one round with the Elemental Rune and some luck on the rolls).
- Arcane and Primal casters can blast the wall with 2 Cones of Cold or 3 Lightning Bolts/Fireballs. Considering that they'll take more than a hundred points of damage from the Fireballs...

I don't draw like Ravingdork, but here is a modification of his example A. 15 squares, so I have far enough to add a ceiling to my boxes (if your GM allows that, but as you can build stairs it seems it's allowed).

If I take this party in particular, the Gnome Wizard will need 3 rounds to get out (if they have enough blast spells prepared) or 1 if they have Dimension Door 5 prepared, the lady may be able to get out in 7 rounds if she's a Thief Rogue and what looks like an Oracle may not be able to get out at all. The Longsword martial can try to help one of their teammate but they will hardly reduce the time to break the wall under 3 rounds so they'll certainly die trying.
So it's a near guaranteed TPK.

What are your thoughts?


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SuperBidi wrote:

Thanks for the newbie ;)

Also, the goal of such a thread is to get everyone's point of view so I can adjudicate it with a good knowledge of both the impact of my ruling and the general position of people on this spell.

As I GM PFS adventures, it's important for me to know the general position as I'm pretty sure I'll get some pushback if I rule it too far away.

OK well here is what I recommend copied from my guide.

Wall of Stone ★★★★★ a bigger, tougher wall that is permanent. The best wall. Unlike Wall of Force it is shapeable into different things. Always one of the top spells in the game and one of the few that hasn’t been depowered in this edition. This spell is designed to be a barrier, normally for the purpose of keeping some or all of the enemy away for a few rounds. Note that walls don’t typically have a saving throw or attack roll - they just work. Eventually the enemy will be able to batter it down. It has some good utility use as well. In terms of making a bridge/stairs etc.
However, expect that some GMs will object if you enclose enemies in individual little boxes of stone, or if you try to drop it on enemies. This spell is a good reason to have some sort of teleportation effect available, though the line of effect rules might stop you (typically you have to be able to see where you are going). Defensively a flight ability outside will help, but if your enemy is using it a lot you need a Passwall, a disintegrate, a teleport, or just be strong enough to smash it down in a few hits. You can’t dispel this wall like the D&D5 version.

Limits some GMs put on the spell to tone it down:
1)Maximum width, height. You can’t fully cover a 30’x30’ gap, only up to 120’x20’ as a maximum.

2) No doubling up on the breadth to make it stronger.

3) The walls rules say The path of a shaped wall can’t enter the same space more than once, but it can double back so one section is adjacent to another section of the wall. Which means you can’t run the edge of the wall back over itself.

4) It’s a wall so it can be argued it has to exist as one folded plane. Each section has to be placed next to the previous section like a wall. So perhaps you can’t fold the top over into a box or a house shape. Which means that you can fly or climb out. But given most dungeons have ceilings, that often doesn’t matter.

5) Its edges can’t pass through objects can be interpreted too harshly to insist it can have gaps under it as it must be on one level, so it doesn’t work well on broken ground.

6) It can’t be placed horizontally - this is just wrong as the spell says otherwise. It can clearly be rotated 3 dimensionally.

7) Insist that the wall must be 20ft high exactly as you can grammatically infer that the up to only applies to the 120ft.

But each of these is arguable. I typically go with the first 3 limits here and don’t accept the rest.
I also always have larger creatures bash larger holes in the wall, not little 5x5 sections which would doom them to being trapped for a very long time.

Is that clear enough?


Gortle wrote:
Is that clear enough?

Why haven't you posted that earlier? You summed up all my concerns about this spell.


I try to keep a running track of issues. I think I have most of them. I do constantly update my guides based on my experiences including the forum. Still I'm well behind on remaster changes as I want to link to AoN.

Walls are very powerful and are a big reason Primal is a good spell list.

One of the roles that need to be covered in a party is a good high strength attack. As precision damage doesn't count against walls. If the GM starts using walls against you, then encounters get very hard and Barbarian starts to look like a top class. Parties that look well balanced on paper can be fragile if they rely too much on precision damage.


I see what you mean. But Wall of Stone is problematic as it can separate each and every characters, reducing the impact of a high damage character.

And the other walls are much more manageable. Wall of Force is virtually undestructible through normal means due to its crazy Hardness but a common option like Dispel Magic can remove it entirely and Teleportation effects work through it.

The main concern I have with Walls is if they become too much of a hammer for every nail. Having a character walling once per day to save the party is fine but if you can use them for each and every fight you change the basic structure of fights (and create real balance issues if all encounters are separated in 2).

Similarly, if enemies start to wall the party you need specific tactics to overcome such spells. And in the case of Wall of Stone, the specific tactic is very hard to find (I can't find any item casting Dimension Door 5 or Shape Stone).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you believe that a wall can't occupy the same grid square as a creature, and take into account that it can't go through a given grid square more than once (so it does count whole spaces, even if it goes along the grid border), then it could well be impossible to split adjacent characters / creatures with the wall.

Gortle wrote:
3) The walls rules say The path of a shaped wall can’t enter the same space more than once, but it can double back so one section is adjacent to another section of the wall. Which means you can’t run the edge of the wall back over itself.

There are several parts I can think of that would qualify as an edge.

The top is an edge. The sides/end caps are edges. Every 90° corner of every face is an edge.

I assuming you mean the beginning and ending sides/end caps.


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Ravingdork wrote:


The double wall in Example B is explicitly allowed, per SuperBidi's rules quote above.

No, it's not.

Being able to have both the top side and bottom side of the same square is what is allowed by SuperBidi's quote.

The rules say the wall exists on the grid lines and no where else, thus it's own space would have to be where the second layer on the same side of a grid square would be trying to be, because "just slightly north of the border between spaces" (read: the grid lines) and "on the border" are not the same thing.

Ravingdork wrote:


That's also a good reason for allowing the meeting at corners. Doubling back and being adjacent would be impossible otherwise.

No, it would just mean that doubling back and being adjacent is a phrasing referring to the configuration in example C.

And this is clear because any line of reasoning that suggests you can put 2 layers of the wall on the same side of a single square also suggests the entire length of the wall can be "doubled back and adjacent" such that all 24 5-fot long segments are on the same side of a single square.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Quote:
Wall of Force is virtually undestructible through normal means due to its crazy Hardness but a common option like Dispel Magic can remove it entirely and Teleportation effects work through it.

But only dispel that is higher level. Remember that Wall of Force is completely immune to being counteracted by lower or equal level effects.

Liberty's Edge

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SuperBidi wrote:
- What is an object? On paper, even a small rock is an object. Being nitpicky about this point can lead to the spell being nearly unusable.

My first instinct is that if the entity in question is intended to have a mechanical impact, it's an object. So if the pebbles on the floor are significant enough to create difficult terrain, objects. If they're descriptive detail to paint a mental picture, not objects.

Quote:
- What is passing "through" a creature? You obviously can't pass through their space but from the space and size rules: Sometimes part of a creature extends beyond its space, such as if a giant octopus is grabbing you with its tentacles. For example a guard with a Longspear is definitely extending beyond it's space. But how do you rule what creature is extending beyond its space and what creature isn't?

I think before I worry if the "extension" is a body part or equipment, a better starting point is whether the "extension" is engaged with another creature outside its space.

Two Humans punching one another from adjacent squares? Neither of them is acting when I cast Wall of Stone, so the Wall can go right between them.

Human A has Human B grabbed in an adjacent square with a combat grapnel? The Wall can't pass between them because it would be crossing an object.

The relevant question, in my mind, is whether the wall would be "crossing" something at the instant of casting, rather than whether that something is an object or creature, because either would interrupt the wall.

Quote:
- Can the ceiling "break" the space if it's less than 20-foot high?

That seems like a pretty obvious yes.

Quote:
- How do you handle this part of the Walls rule: The path of a shaped wall can’t enter the same space more than once. Considering that Wall of Stone is supposed to be positioned on the border between squares, it's hard to determine what the "same space" refers to.

I've never considered this complicated. My reading has always been that the Wall of Stone can't double back on itself. Once a line segment exists between Point A and Point B, no further line segment can go between A and B, though you could go A > B > C > A if that path were possible.

Quote:
Also, can you make a prison with the wall?

I don't understand what you're asking. Do you mean could you enclose a cube? You could, make 20 foot cube by forming a floor, pivoting 90 degrees to form a North wall, then a West wall, then a South wall, then an East wall, then a roof.

- What if the ground is not flat?

I'd probably not worry about it unless the ground is so jagged as to count as at least difficult terrain.

Liberty's Edge

Ravingdork wrote:

The double wall in Example B is explicitly allowed, per SuperBidi's rules quote above.

Walls wrote:
The path of a shaped wall can’t enter the same space more than once, but it can double back so one section is adjacent to another section of the wall.

I think that is meant for spells like Wall of Fire, whose segments actually take up an entire map space. I think the "double wall" in Example B is "enter[ing] the same space more than once," but that the segments marked 8 and 21 in Example B are the Wall of Stone version of "one section is adjacent to another section of the wall."

Sovereign Court

SuperBidi wrote:

Among the things needing adjudication:

- What is an object? On paper, even a small rock is an object. Being nitpicky about this point can lead to the spell being nearly unusable.

Yeah, I think we need to be reasonable and moderate here. Luke's example of a combat grapnel stretching from one creature into the space of another due to an active grapple, is a good example of an object. A few descriptive pebbles on the ground, no.

SuperBidi wrote:


- What is passing "through" a creature? You obviously can't pass through their space but from the space and size rules: Sometimes part of a creature extends beyond its space, such as if a giant octopus is grabbing you with its tentacles. For example a guard with a Longspear is definitely extending beyond it's space. But how do you rule what creature is extending beyond its space and what creature isn't?

I don't think we have to invent anything entirely new here. If an octopus is grappling someone 20ft away, then it's clearly stretching through that distance. If the octopus is merely threatening attacks of opportunity, then a PC 20ft away couldn't just attack the threatening tentacle. So it also shouldn't block a wall.

SuperBidi wrote:


- Can the ceiling "break" the space if it's less than 20-foot high?

I'd say no. I'm really tired of ceilings being extremely convenient in exact height for team enemy all the time.

SuperBidi wrote:


- How do you handle this part of the Walls rule: The path of a shaped wall can’t enter the same space more than once. Considering that Wall of Stone is supposed to be positioned on the border between squares, it's hard to determine what the "same space" refers to. Also, can you make a prison with the wall?

I don't think we should allow folding for double thickness, but touching at intersections I'd be okay with.

SuperBidi wrote:


- What if the ground is not flat? I see so many possible answers to this question, from the wall that follows the relief to the one that extends 20-foot high from the lowest point to the one that ends up partly mid-air to the GM who forbids such casting...

Just like with the ceiling, I think a bit of slope on the ground should also not be an issue. If it was like a steep slope that had mechanical impact, okay, but if it's just gradual with no other effect on movement, then this seems needlessly nitpicky.

---

SuperBidi wrote:
The main concern I have with Walls is if they become too much of a hammer for every nail. Having a character walling once per day to save the party is fine but if you can use them for each and every fight you change the basic structure of fights (and create real balance issues if all encounters are separated in 2).

I think that's a valid concern. But I don't want the GM answer to be something that feels like a bureaucratic gotcha. The spell should work broadly as you expect it on a plain-text reading, without surprising technical hindrances. But it should also be balanced.

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