PF2e Remaster Online Rules Reference?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm sure this exists and I'm not seeing it (much like my hunting through the fridge for something, but my wife can find it easily). I've used Archives of Nethys for many years and liked it. Looking at it I don't see any of the new Player/GM Core material. Is there an option to show that on the site or a new site that I should be referencing?

Thanks,
Kizan


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

No, there is not an option ypu can select yet. AoN is still working on that update.


Yeah, it feels like the remaster was actually very substantial from the rules standpoint since AoN is taking sooo long to update.


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Jacob Jett wrote:
Yeah, it feels like the remaster was actually very substantial from the rules standpoint since AoN is taking sooo long to update.

It is a massive ton of trivial details. Which takes a long time to audit and find all of. Also, the piping and logic that will allow people to toggle back and forth between pre-Remaster and Remaster content of the same-named things takes a lot of coding.

From a gameplay perspective, the actual meaningful changes that have impact are few and far between.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I think that's accurate, that the impact on AoN is significantly larger than the impact on a game in progress.


Finoan wrote:
Jacob Jett wrote:
Yeah, it feels like the remaster was actually very substantial from the rules standpoint since AoN is taking sooo long to update.

It is a massive ton of trivial details. Which takes a long time to audit and find all of. Also, the piping and logic that will allow people to toggle back and forth between pre-Remaster and Remaster content of the same-named things takes a lot of coding.

From a gameplay perspective, the actual meaningful changes that have impact are few and far between.

Eh...if you were rocking a Rogue with the Eldritch Trickster racket or a Ranger specializing in traps and snares, the removal of certain things might be kinda huge...

Just saying.

It really is a 2.0 to 2.1 jump. It's not at all a 2.0.0.1 to 2.0.0.2 patch...(which is what errata really are). I think this will be even more evident in Player Core 2 and might almost certainly necessitate a Player Core 3 (all of which are still terrible porn-adjacent names).


2 people marked this as a favorite.

"removal" is an interesting term to use.

Are you just talking about the couple of things like Eldritch Trickster (which was a terrible racket to begin with) that weren't brought forward, or are you also including things from other books that shouldn't need to be reprinted?

Because I have heard people saying things like 'the familiar abilities Tremorsense and Wavesense are no longer available' because those are in Grand Bazaar and weren't reprinted in Player Core.

Player Core and Player Core 2 aren't meant to be a compendium of everything ever printed for PF2. The other books are still valid.


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

"Not reprinted" does not equal "removed". Even by implication. I dont know where people keep getting the idea that it does.

If you were playing an Eldritch Trickster, absolutely nothing has changed about your racket.


Uh...lol wat?

That's like saying I said Alchemists were removed from the game.

Like who cares about those other books. There are things which were in the CRB, GMG, and APG that are no longer. Kind of important if you were using them, regardless of what the majority was doing. And in this instance, removal (like with the Drow and alignments) is the correct term to employ.

It feels like folks are trying to retcon by handwave that things have been changed by the remaster. Some of those things changed for the better. Some didn't. IMO, the remaster thus far is a mixed bag. But let's now undersell that things got changed and campaigns will need to adapt, even where those adaptations are minor.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Of course some things have been changed. But Eldritch Trickster and snare ranger aren't good examples.

Eldritch trickster is a racket that received no changes, with no new version being printed.

Snare ranger will be something changed after PC2 is released, since that's when snares are being changed. Until then, nothing is different about them.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jacob Jett wrote:
But let's now undersell that things got changed and campaigns will need to adapt, even where those adaptations are minor.

Let's not oversell it either.

If a gaming group wants to continue listing alignments for their characters, that will work just fine.

If a character has Eldritch Trickster Racket for some reason, that will also still work just fine. No adaptations needed.


HammerJack wrote:

"Not reprinted" does not equal "removed". Even by implication. I dont know where people keep getting the idea that it does.

If you were playing an Eldritch Trickster, absolutely nothing has changed about your racket.

Pretty confident you can't keep using it in PFS. Would likely require some GM adaptation to remain useful.

Pretty confident new players will not use, its not in their copy of the rulebooks after all.

So yeah, the new core books are not meant to supplement the old ones. They are replacements and no one's expecting new players to buy the old ones (and no one's going to keep printing the old ones). In the industry I work in, we call this state of affairs a silent deprecation. (See also related, security by obscurity.)

I.e., a new norm has replaced the old norm.

But what do I know, it's not like I'm an expert on information and technical standards or anything like that...

(Just because we can do Y, doesn't mean the situation isn't X.)


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Jacob Jett wrote:
HammerJack wrote:

"Not reprinted" does not equal "removed". Even by implication. I dont know where people keep getting the idea that it does.

If you were playing an Eldritch Trickster, absolutely nothing has changed about your racket.

Pretty confident you can't keep using it in PFS. Would likely require some GM adaptation to remain useful.

Pretty confident that they can.

Quote:
If a character option has not been reprinted, characters are free to use the option as previously printed, or to select it at any time.

-----

Jacob Jett wrote:
Pretty confident new players will not use, its not in their copy of the rulebooks after all.

Good? Not sure why anyone wanted to use it in the first place. But none the less, the content still exists. And is still valid to use.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Aside from that being incorrect about PFS, even brand-new players find and want to use stuff that isn't in their rulebooks, but printed in adventures all the time, so I'm fairly confident some of them will still be looking at not-reprinted stuff, too.

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Jacob Jett wrote:
Pretty confident new players will not use, its not in their copy of the rulebooks after all.

In my experience over decades of many different games the exact opposite of this is true. The majority of new players I've played with have been the most vocal with asking "what else they can do" beyond the book they have.

Heck in the last year I've introduced 3 people to PF1E and PF2E, gave them the CRB and a brief outline and all three went online to find other options they thought would be "cool" to varying degrees of success (one had a bad habit of focusing on weird 3rd party stuff that was either under or overpowered).

I get that with some people they may be shy about doing so, but I think you're over-estimating how much impact this will be.


PF2easy is doing right now

Pathfinder nexus now shows general rule of it once open dropdown in sidebar, maybe only on mobile


We need to wait the PC2 to see but I have doubt about continuation of Eldritch Trickster racket because the main idea of players core is to merge all class features that was divided between CRB and APG into the same book. So I don't expect a Eldritch Trickster racket in PC2 unless the designers decide to turn it into an archetype.

I know that we can still use the current CRB Eldritch Trickster racket specially during this transition period where only half of the remaster out. But I don't know after the the release of PC2 what will happen. I honestly doubt that PFS and even many tables will keep allowing the old content from CRB/APG so long once that these books will no longe be reprinted and will becoming sold out over time and more and more tables will abandon the usage of this old content that for many will be only found in some legacy part of AoN/SRD site.

Anyway this is a future worry. For now you could keep using your Eldritch Trickster racket into a merge of old and new rules (like allowing the usage or martial weapons) without too much worry.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
YuriP wrote:
I don't expect a Eldritch Trickster racket in PC2 unless the designers decide to turn it into an archetype.

I would argue that it already is an archetype. Namely, the multiclass archetype that you get from it. And then get Magical Trickster at level 4 instead of level 2.

What else does Eldritch Trickster give?

But anyway, that is beside the point.

YuriP wrote:
I know that we can still use the current CRB Eldritch Trickster racket specially during this transition period where only half of the remaster out. But I don't know after the the release of PC2 what will happen. I honestly doubt that PFS and even many tables will keep allowing the old content from CRB/APG

As I mentioned above, PFS already ruled that Eldritch Trickster and other non-reprinted options are still available indefinitely. I can't speak to a particular table. That is for them to decide. But I don't see any reason that they would want to ban the previous content. What would be the purpose of that?

Lantern Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
YuriP wrote:
I honestly doubt that PFS and even many tables will keep allowing the old content from CRB/APG so long once that these books will no longe be reprinted and will becoming sold out over time and more and more tables will abandon the usage of this old content that for many will be only found in some legacy part of AoN/SRD site.

According to the Remaster plan on the AON Homepage, old content is NOT going to be relegated to some "legacy part" of AON.

AON: "Mechanics which were only present in one version or the other will be visible on both views. However, mechanics from an edition you are not presently focused on will have a warning banner at the top to indicate they are from the other version and the rules may not function exactly as they did."

Only hybrid mechanics - "those with a legacy version and a remaster version (regardless of if it's a simple name change or a more complex difference)" - will require you to toggle back and forth between the old and remaster versions.

So, Eldritch Trickster racket should still show up on AON regardless of whether you've toggled Pre-Remaster or Remaster, but if you are toggled to Remaster, a warning banner will display that basically says it was not re-done in Remaster.

On the other hand, Ruffian racket (a hybrid mechanic) would display the Remaster version if you toggled Remaster and the old version if you toggled Pre-Remaster.

Although I buy all the books as PDFs, I RARELY look at them. I almost exclusively look at AON, so when building a character I will see ALL the options. Building a Rogue? Eldritch Trickster will still show up with a banner (actually more visible due to the banner!).

And as for reprints of the books, who cares? That's NOT going to affect availability. It's been 4 years since 2nd Edition came out and Paizo still sells PF1 PDFs even though the physical books ran out years ago. Also, I'm guessing most people these days prefer the PDFs over physical books due to not having to find shelf-space or having to lug a heavy bag around. And if you want to use the old material in PFS, you need an official copy, so the old PDFs will still sell.


YuriP wrote:
I know that we can still use the current CRB Eldritch Trickster racket specially during this transition period where only half of the remaster out. But I don't know after the the release of PC2 what will happen. I honestly doubt that PFS and even many tables will keep allowing the old content from CRB/APG
As I mentioned above, PFS already ruled that Eldritch Trickster and other non-reprinted options are still available indefinitely. I can't speak to a particular table. That is for them to decide. But I don't see any reason that they would want to ban the previous content. What would be the purpose of that?

There's no indefinitely in PFS. In practice they can change their rules at any moment.

So how to deal for example with tables 2 years from now for example in person PFS games? The CRB/APG will no longe available to sell and most players won't want to buy both the old and the new books to get access to little things making most new tables only having access to PC1 and PC2. I not consider AoN here because having devices with access to internet content its not mandatory to in person game.
Let's be honest, its very unlikely that the support of CRB and APG content that's no longer exists will be kepping supported. Probably they will be just considered as "removed by errata" as any other errata does to CRB (like the removal of Powerful Alchemy from a feat to class feature basically preventing it to be get by archetype preventing players to make characters like fighter "toxicologists" better than alchemists or the toxicologist archetype).

About Eldritch Trickster they not only removed the racket. They removed Magical Trickster and Eldritch Debilitations too. Basically no longer being possible to do Sneak Attack with spells anymore and probably that's the intent of the designers to remove the integration between spells and rogues abilities.

I honestly have serious doubt to consider the current compatibility more than a workaround solution while all the remasters books is not yet completed and to prevent players that recently purchased CRB/APG to complain too much. But at long term this is not sustainable.

Captain Zoom wrote:
YuriP wrote:
I honestly doubt that PFS and even many tables will keep allowing the old content from CRB/APG so long once that these books will no longe be reprinted and will becoming sold out over time and more and more tables will abandon the usage of this old content that for many will be only found in some legacy part of AoN/SRD site.

According to the Remaster plan on the AON Homepage, old content is NOT going to be relegated to some "legacy part" of AON.

AON: "Mechanics which were only present in one version or the other will be visible on both views. However, mechanics from an edition you are not presently focused on will have a warning banner at the top to indicate they are from the other version and the rules may not function exactly as they did."

Only hybrid mechanics - "those with a legacy version and a remaster version (regardless of if it's a simple name change or a more complex difference)" - will require you to toggle back and forth between the old and remaster versions.

So, Eldritch Trickster racket should still show up on AON regardless of whether you've toggled Pre-Remaster or Remaster, but if you are toggled to Remaster, a warning banner will display that basically says it was not re-done in Remaster.

On the other hand, Ruffian racket (a hybrid mechanic) would display the Remaster version if you toggled Remaster and the old version if you toggled Pre-Remaster.

Although I buy all the books as PDFs, I RARELY look at them. I almost exclusively look at AON, so when building a character I will see ALL the options. Building a Rogue? Eldritch Trickster will still show up with a banner (actually more visible due to the banner!).

And as for reprints of the books, who cares? That's NOT going to affect availability. It's been 4 years since 2nd Edition came out and Paizo still sells PF1 PDFs even though the physical books ran out years ago. Also, I'm guessing most people these days prefer the PDFs over physical books due to not having to find shelf-space or having to...

You are considering the online content. Not all tables allows or wants to keep a PC/Smartphone/Tablet with internet access to get the necessary data.

Example. Imagine a table where the players not get CRB/APG because they decide to by the most updated books (PC1 and PC2) and someone came with a Eldritch Trickster into the sheet. The GM will just see "what's this? where this come from? how do we get access to all the description and linked rules? why this isn't in the current books?".

Lantern Lodge

YuriP wrote:

You are considering the online content. Not all tables allows or wants to keep a PC/Smartphone/Tablet with internet access to get the necessary data.

Example. Imagine a table where the players not get CRB/APG because they decide to by the most updated books (PC1 and PC2) and someone came with a Eldritch Trickster into the sheet. The GM will just see "what's this? where this come from? how do we get access to all the description and linked rules? why this isn't in the current books?".

I guess if you've got the caveman GM? In any case, why would you need internet at the table? Unless the GM distrusts the players so much that the GM's not willing to look at the material outside the game session, or the player won't simply print the item/feat/ability/whatnot from the website. You seem to feel that people are easily dissuaded from making the character they want.

And you set up your example by postulating a group that EXPLICITY HOUSERULES Remaster only. Yeah, I can see some GMs and groups deciding they will only use Remaster, just as there have been GMs who limited PCs to the Core Book ONLY.

If it's PFS, the contract is you buy the book (physical or PDF), bring it to the table and you can use it. They break that contract they'll definitely get complaints. Can they do it? Yes, but they will definitely get complaints.

If it's a home game, then it's up to the GM. Some GMs restrict their games to certain books, many other simply allow all official Paizo material, and some GMs are very lenient about 3rd party and other materials. If your GM is the type to limit things, then that's not a problem for the rest of us. I think (and this is only my opinion as I have no data) the majority of GMs are the type to generally allow all official Paizo material (often subject to approval particularly when it comes to rarity/access).


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Finoan wrote:


Jacob Jett wrote:
Pretty confident new players will not use, its not in their copy of the rulebooks after all.
Good? Not sure why anyone wanted to use it in the first place. But none the less, the content still exists. And is still valid to use.

Aaand... No, it's definitely not valid to use for new players and characters in PFS: rackets are 'class chassis' and those must be 'remastered' ones for new (or remaster-rebuild) characters. And remastered rogue doesn't have Eldritch Trickster racket.

For old chars until they are rebuild - yes.
YuriP wrote:
As I mentioned above, PFS already ruled that Eldritch Trickster and other non-reprinted options are still available indefinitely. I can't speak to a particular table. That is for them to decide. But I don't see any reason that they would want to ban the previous content. What would be the purpose of that?

No, they didn't. Guys, please read the actual PFS rules:

"Beginning on November 15, 2023, if a class has been reprinted in the Player Core, no new characters may be created using its class chassis as printed in the Core Rulebook. "Class chassis" means everything that all members of a class receive; roughly, this means the text in a class description which comes before the list of class feats.
- This affects the following classes: bard, cleric, druid, fighter, ranger, rogue, witch, wizard.
- Characters with at least 1 game reported prior to November 15 may be built using the Core Rulebook chassis.
- Previously-existing characters with at least 1 game reported may continue their progression using the Core Rulebook chassis. They may not use the chassis in the Player Core without rebuilding."


Its not so rare get in place games without internet access. Some people times to times comes to forum saying that they play without it. Can be because they don't have access for some reason or because they simply prefers to play in an old fashion way.

The GM and other players doesn't need to distrusts to have doubts of how some mechanics works or interacts with others rules to need to consult a rule book also its pretty common that they people doesn't write all the descriptions of their feats and features in their sheets. So sometimes they need to consult a book to clear up any doubts.

Anyway, we're already rambling a lot. But have no doubt, after PC2, sooner or later legacy support will be abandoned in PFS and many home tables will also start to stop accepting legacy precisely because they don't want to have to manage a mix of rules.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Errenor wrote:
Finoan wrote:


Jacob Jett wrote:
Pretty confident new players will not use, its not in their copy of the rulebooks after all.
Good? Not sure why anyone wanted to use it in the first place. But none the less, the content still exists. And is still valid to use.

Aaand... No, it's definitely not valid to use for new players and characters in PFS: rackets are 'class chassis' and those must be 'remastered' ones for new (or remaster-rebuild) characters. And remastered rogue doesn't have Eldritch Trickster racket.

For old chars until they are rebuild - yes.
YuriP wrote:
As I mentioned above, PFS already ruled that Eldritch Trickster and other non-reprinted options are still available indefinitely. I can't speak to a particular table. That is for them to decide. But I don't see any reason that they would want to ban the previous content. What would be the purpose of that?

No, they didn't. Guys, please read the actual PFS rules:

"Beginning on November 15, 2023, if a class has been reprinted in the Player Core, no new characters may be created using its class chassis as printed in the Core Rulebook. "Class chassis" means everything that all members of a class receive; roughly, this means the text in a class description which comes before the list of class feats.
- This affects the following classes: bard, cleric, druid, fighter, ranger, rogue, witch, wizard.
- Characters with at least 1 game reported prior to November 15 may be built using the Core Rulebook chassis.
- Previously-existing characters with at least 1 game reported may continue their progression using the Core Rulebook chassis. They may not use the chassis in the Player Core without rebuilding."

The individual rackets aren't part of a class chassis, the class chassis simply contains an ability which gives you a racket, and asks you to make a choice of available rackets. Eldritch Trickster is still a valid choice for a racket - by the same logic you're using, you could argue all the class feats are part of the class chassis because you have to get a class feature to pick them.

The class chassis is defined in your own quote as 'everything that all members of a class receive'; do you think that every Rogue gets the Eldritch Trickster racket?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Arcaian wrote:
Errenor wrote:

the actual PFS rules:

"Beginning on November 15, 2023, if a class has been reprinted in the Player Core, no new characters may be created using its class chassis as printed in the Core Rulebook. "Class chassis" means everything that all members of a class receive; roughly, this means the text in a class description which comes before the list of class feats.
- This affects the following classes: bard, cleric, druid, fighter, ranger, rogue, witch, wizard.
- Characters with at least 1 game reported prior to November 15 may be built using the Core Rulebook chassis.
- Previously-existing characters with at least 1 game reported may continue their progression using the Core Rulebook chassis. They may not use the chassis in the Player Core without rebuilding."

The individual rackets aren't part of a class chassis, the class chassis simply contains an ability which gives you a racket, and asks you to make a choice of available rackets. Eldritch Trickster is still a valid choice for a racket - by the same logic you're using, you could argue all the class feats are part of the class chassis because you have to get a class feature to pick them.

The class chassis is defined in your own quote as 'everything that all members of a class receive'; do you think that every Rogue gets the Eldritch Trickster racket?

Actual clarification is now there, right in the text (partially because of my request), and it's still not enough... The last try before giving up (you still need to convince your actual PFS GMs which will be harder): rackets as a whole are what "all members of a class receive" and definitely and undoubtedly are "in a class description which comes before the list of class feats".

No, class feats aren't "in a class description which comes before the list of class feats" by the literal requirement in the quote.
And yes, all rogues get a racket.
Also you can't take old wizard schools anymore (for new chars... blah blah blah) even though they still exist in the old class description in the CRB and not all wizards have all schools.


Only using Remastered Core stuff at the table sounds incredibly boring. So you remove all uncommon & rare ancestries, 6 classes that WON"T be remastered. Gunslinger, Inventor, Magus, Summoner, Psychic & Thaumaturge.

I suppose if enough people complain about those 6 Classes not being Remastered maybe in 2025+ Paizo might consider Remastering them but since even PFS is allowing them then Paizo has less reason to do anything about it.

Yeah some of the good Elf feats weren't even in the Core but are you saying I am not allowed Elven instincts? Some of the cool Dwarf feats weren't reprinted. AkA Hero's Call.


Errenor wrote:
YuriP wrote:
As I mentioned above, PFS already ruled that Eldritch Trickster and other non-reprinted options are still available indefinitely. I can't speak to a particular table. That is for them to decide. But I don't see any reason that they would want to ban the previous content. What would be the purpose of that?

No, they didn't. Guys, please read the actual PFS rules:

"Beginning on November 15, 2023, if a class has been reprinted in the Player Core, no new characters may be created using its class chassis as printed in the Core Rulebook. "Class chassis" means everything that all members of a class receive; roughly, this means the text in a class description which comes before the list of class feats.

That is questionable. And I asked the question.

But at worst that means that you couldn't create a new Eldritch Trickster Rogue character in PFS.

That isn't disruptive to existing characters - which was the claim originally made by Jacob Jett. In PFS, existing Eldritch Trickster Rogues are allowed to continue being Eldritch Tricksters. And it doesn't prevent non-PFS tables from using the Racket in any capacity.

Seriously. Name one word of the Eldritch Trickster Racket that needs to be changed in order to continue to work perfectly under the Remaster rules. I have dibs on 'ability score' which obviously can be trivially converted to the equivalent 'attribute modifier' with oh-so-much grueling and complicated effort by the GM (you don't even have to do the math on the actual number conversion - just update the term used to reference). Anything else?

Also, remember that we are talking about a very small number of things that were cut from the CRB and APG only. Options from all of the other books are still available.


Finoan wrote:

That is questionable. And I asked the question.

But at worst that means that you couldn't create a new Eldritch Trickster Rogue character in PFS.

That isn't disruptive to existing characters - which was the claim originally made by Jacob Jett. In PFS, existing Eldritch Trickster Rogues are allowed to continue being Eldritch Tricksters. And it doesn't prevent non-PFS tables from using the Racket in any capacity.

Seriously. Name one word of the Eldritch Trickster Racket that needs to be changed in order to continue to work...

Ok, let's see the answer (even though I don't really doubt it).

Yes.
No, Jacob talked about PFS, and you therefore answered about PFS, and I answered that. Existing are allowed (until they take their remaster rebuild), yes. Yes, non-PFS can do anything.
And again, I was discussing PFS rules only. Yes, it's compatible.


The original claim was non-PFS. The goalposts moved later.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / General Discussion / PF2e Remaster Online Rules Reference? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.