Mad Magic (Feat, Combat) clarification about Bloodrager class level


Rules Questions


Blood Casting (Su)
At 4th level, the bloodrager gains the ability to cast spells even while bloodraging. He can also cast these spells defensively and can make concentration checks for these spells while bloodraging. While bloodraging, he can cast and concentrate on only his bloodrager spells (see below); spells from other classes cannot be cast during this state.

Mad Magic:
Prerequisite(s): Bloodrage class feature or perfect clarity rage power.

Benefit(s): You can cast spells from any class that grants you spells while in a bloodrage, and you keep your rage benefits when using moment of clarity during a rage.

If you have the greater bloodrage class feature, you also gain a +1 bonus to the save DCs of spells you cast while in a bloodrage.

My question:
Bloodrager get the ability to cast spells while in bloodrage at level 4, but only his bloodrager spells.
Mad Magic look like was designed to be combined with Blood Casting for guarantee a bloodrager the possibility to cast spells from any other class while in a bloodrage.

BUT, Mad Magic have as prerequisite only "Bloodrage class feature or perfect clarity rage power", doesn't mention "Blood Casting ability", and doesn't mention in the Feat description "while using Blood Casting ability".
Mad Magic text just say "Benefit(s): You can cast spells from any class that grants you spells while in a bloodrage", so if i have to use RAW, Mad Magic give the ability to cast any spell while in bloodrage, as if he were a Blood Casting alternative and not an Upgrade (i don't say substitute because Blood Casting give also "cast defensively" and "concentration check"), if it's correct, it means you can use Mad Magic right away from level 1 when you get the Bloodrage ability.

What do you think about RAW and RAI?


A feat doesn't have to mention the ability to modify the ability if that's the only ability that offers its effects. Blood casting just gives bloodragers (at the same level they gain spells) the ability to cast (only) spells learned through the class. Mad Magic just extends this to any other spells from other sources for characters that multiclassed bloodrager.

It's that simple and honestly pretty straight forward from just reading the benefits lines.

Prerequisites on Mad Magic here are basically just a check to help prevent players from wasting a feat on an ability that does nothing for them because their character isn't a bloodrager.


AwesomenessDog wrote:

A feat doesn't have to mention the ability to modify the ability if that's the only ability that offers its effects. Blood casting just gives bloodragers (at the same level they gain spells) the ability to cast (only) spells learned through the class. Mad Magic just extends this to any other spells from other sources for characters that multiclassed bloodrager.

It's that simple and honestly pretty straight forward from just reading the benefits lines.

Prerequisites on Mad Magic here are basically just a check to help prevent players from wasting a feat on an ability that does nothing for them because their character isn't a bloodrager.

This rule about prerequisite where is written?

And anyway if you just read Mad Magic without associated it to Blood Casting the effect isn't the same, Blood Casting give also "cast defensively" and "concentration checks"

Also, an "Untouchable Rager" (Bloodrager Archetype) don't get Spells and obviously Blood Casting, but still have Bloodrage ability, so you could dip with another caster class and with Mad Magic cast any spells while bloodraging.

Also, follow another Feat that give the ability to cast while raging, dont have any prerequisite and you can cast any spells, if i should follow your rule, i can't use Furious Spell before Level 4 if i'm Bloodrager or level 2 if i'm Barbarian because i need Moment of Clarity for cast and he get first Rage Power at level 2.
Furious Spell (Metamagic)
Your spells seethe with the ferocious intensity of your blood-red rage.
Benefit(s): A furious spell that deals hit point damage adds twice the spell’s original level to the amount of damage dealt by the spell. Spells that affect multiple targets deal the extra damage once to each target, regardless of whether the spell deals its damage all at once or in multiple hits (in the latter case, add the extra damage to the first hit against each target). In addition, a furious spell can be cast while the caster is enraged, including during a barbarian rage or while affected by a rage spell. Even a furious spell that requires an emotion component can be cast while enraged. The caster gains a +2 circumstance bonus on concentration checks and caster level checks related to casting a furious spell if she is enraged.
Level Increase: +1 (a furious spell uses up a spell slot 1 level higher than the spell’s actual level.

I would prefer avoid using that garbage rage cycling, but if is what Paizo prefer, well it's not so hard to do it.

Just to know, if what you said about the prerequisite it's just your hypothesis, it's a RAI not a RAW, even if logically it seems like the thing that makes the most sense, or please link the rule that say "A feat doesn't have to mention the ability to modify the ability if that's the only ability that offers its effects."


Casting defensively and concentration checks are just a part of casting spells. It is a redundant statement for Blood casting to explicitly mention it but class abilities are usually full of redundancies because newer players often need the reminders.

That said, my point with prerequisites is that I think you're hyper-focusing on the wrong part of the feat. It seems like you are focusing on the prerequisite which you are misunderstanding as I think English is not your first language. This is not the important part of the feat because it is met by any bloodrager that did not give up their casting. (The prerequisite is also just there otherwise to stop non-raging casters from taking an feat that gives them the ability to cast spells they aren't already occluded from. Rage classes do lose the ability to cast while in a rage, that's what the whole feat is about. So while yes the prerequisite for barbarians without perfect clarity does stop them from casting with their others classes by taking Mad Magic, for everyone else, this is just a reminder stopping them from taking the feat because it doesn't benefit them.)

As for finding a rule that says anything about what prerequisites must say or do, there isn't one. Prerequisites are rules in of themselves, it's perfectly valid to design a feat that solely or as part of all of its rules changes an ability that you are not required to have, if a designer decided to do so. My point exactly was that there is no rule for designers to follow that they have to put an ability as a prerequisite for a feat that modifies that ability.

Just to recap, you came to the right conclusion in your original post, I'm just trying to help because I think you are confusing yourself looking at the prerequisites which are entirely non-relevant factors to exactly what the benefits sections mean.

Liberty's Edge

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Casting defensively and concentration checks are just a part of casting spells. It is a redundant statement for Blood casting to explicitly mention it but class abilities are usually full of redundancies because newer players often need the reminders.

Saying that bloodragers can cast defensively and make concentration checks while raging isn't redundant.

[quite=AoN]While bloodraging, a bloodrager cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.

Casting defensively and concentration checks are (for bloodragers) a charisma-based ability, something that they can't do without that text.

RAW, while Mad Magic allows you to cast while raging, it doesn't allow concentration checks (but Moment of Clarity gives the ability to use Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based abilities, and so concentration checks).
RAI, I think it is meant to give all the Blood Casting abilities.

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