Remastered Investigator


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Don't underestimate how far behind Investigator actually is when comparing its combat performance with other martials. Class needs a less action-intensive DaS AND a better DaS.


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roquepo wrote:
Don't underestimate how far behind Investigator actually is when comparing its combat performance with other martials. Class needs a less action-intensive DaS AND a better DaS.

Much like swashbuckler and panache, I doubt DaS would actually be broken if it were a free action every round.


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aricene wrote:
Here's another Devise a Stratagem possible boost or house rule: on any enemy not the subject of Pursue a Lead, Devise a Stratagem still costs an action *but* only the first time. That would represent the investigator's brain switching gears and getting caught up, stuttering a little bit, but then adapting afterward. It keeps Pursue a Lead meaningful, too, because if you don't have it, you're still paying an action tax on the first round of combat (i.e. the most important round).

Or, simply, "switch the target of your Pursue A Lead for 1 action". Makes them kind of Rangery, though.

Of course, there's the other side of this. We could take a page from the gunslinger, and make DaS let you do something else at the same time. DaS and half stride, DaS and reload, DaS and RK... it might not be everything, but it sure would help, and it might even make a degree of sense thematically. I rather like "plan on the move" as a name for the DaS/half-stride one.


Calliope5431 wrote:
roquepo wrote:
Don't underestimate how far behind Investigator actually is when comparing its combat performance with other martials. Class needs a less action-intensive DaS AND a better DaS.
Much like swashbuckler and panache, I doubt DaS would actually be broken if it were a free action every round.

It wouldn't be enough for the class. It would also break the class archetype (imagine a Magus with a free action DaS).

I really hope Paizo has something in store for player core 2, cause the class fantasy is really appealing to me but playing an Investigator RN as is is just painful.


roquepo wrote:
Calliope5431 wrote:
roquepo wrote:
Don't underestimate how far behind Investigator actually is when comparing its combat performance with other martials. Class needs a less action-intensive DaS AND a better DaS.
Much like swashbuckler and panache, I doubt DaS would actually be broken if it were a free action every round.

It wouldn't be enough for the class. It would also break the class archetype (imagine a Magus with a free action DaS).

I really hope Paizo has something in store for player core 2, cause the class fantasy is really appealing to me but playing an Investigator RN as is it's just painful.

The 1-action combat change Lead to then get free action DaS, ect, could have a pre-req clause of "has the Strategic Strike class feature" to lock out the archetype. That's already used to prevent it from taking a Class Feat or two the devs thought would be to good for an archetype dip.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Calliope5431 wrote:
roquepo wrote:
Don't underestimate how far behind Investigator actually is when comparing its combat performance with other martials. Class needs a less action-intensive DaS AND a better DaS.
Much like swashbuckler and panache, I doubt DaS would actually be broken if it were a free action every round.

We tried this, extremely loose Lead rules letting the investigator get their free action DaS on almost every single enemy.

Not only was it not broken, the class was still kind of bad, even after being handed essentially an extra action every round.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:
aricene wrote:
Here's another Devise a Stratagem possible boost or house rule: on any enemy not the subject of Pursue a Lead, Devise a Stratagem still costs an action *but* only the first time. That would represent the investigator's brain switching gears and getting caught up, stuttering a little bit, but then adapting afterward. It keeps Pursue a Lead meaningful, too, because if you don't have it, you're still paying an action tax on the first round of combat (i.e. the most important round).

Or, simply, "switch the target of your Pursue A Lead for 1 action". Makes them kind of Rangery, though.

Of course, there's the other side of this. We could take a page from the gunslinger, and make DaS let you do something else at the same time. DaS and half stride, DaS and reload, DaS and RK... it might not be everything, but it sure would help, and it might even make a degree of sense thematically. I rather like "plan on the move" as a name for the DaS/half-stride one.

I prefer "Think on Your Feet," myself.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:


Of course, there's the other side of this. We could take a page from the gunslinger, and make DaS let you do something else at the same time. DaS and half stride, DaS and reload, DaS and RK... it might not be everything, but it sure would help, and it might even make a degree of sense thematically. I rather like "plan on the move" as a name for the DaS/half-stride one.

Yeah I like those ideas (though FYI DaS and RK is already a feat)

To put into perspective how hard it is to PaL properly, I GM Outlaws of Alkenstar for myself (look its hard to find players) and one of my characters is an Investigator. The grand total successful PaL is, as of book 2:
The evil alchemist
The first villain
The clockwork sphinx
The pyramid boss, but only after it retreated from the first fight
That's four total across 7 levels


Ryangwy wrote:

[...]

Yeah I like those ideas (though FYI DaS and RK is already a feat)

To put into perspective how hard it is to PaL properly, I GM Outlaws of Alkenstar for myself (look its hard to find players) and one of my characters is an Investigator. The grand total successful PaL is, as of book 2:
[Details from Adventures? Annotation calnivo]

Spoiler tags recommended.


exequiel759 wrote:
For example, fire oracle's mystery benefit is scaling Reflex saves, while the the minor curse is a net 25% failure chance to target goes, and it becomes worse. Tell me what you want but those effects don't compensate each other, which IMO should be point of the class.

The scaling Reflex saves are not supposed to compensate for the minor curse (Which, by the way, is only for targets further than 30 feet away from you); the minor curses are, like it says on the tin, minor drawbacks. Between Incendiary Aura and the fact that most targeted spells have a 30 foot limit anyway, this is rarely going to be a problem.

The minor curses lead into the moderate curses, where there's a tangible benefit; yes, all creatures and objects are concealed to you unless you're casting a Fire spell, BUT you're also concealed to all creatures. That is such a powerful defensive buff, and all you have to do to play around it is cast fire spells or area of effect spells which is exactly what the subclass wants to do anyway.

The whole "downsides are way worse than the benefits you get" IS a serious problem for many Oracle mysteries, but the Flames mystery is one of the best designed ones. Just give them access to Burning Hands/Breathe Fire at level 1 and the class is good to go.


roquepo wrote:
Calliope5431 wrote:
roquepo wrote:
Don't underestimate how far behind Investigator actually is when comparing its combat performance with other martials. Class needs a less action-intensive DaS AND a better DaS.
Much like swashbuckler and panache, I doubt DaS would actually be broken if it were a free action every round.

It wouldn't be enough for the class. It would also break the class archetype (imagine a Magus with a free action DaS).

I really hope Paizo has something in store for player core 2, cause the class fantasy is really appealing to me but playing an Investigator RN as is is just painful.

I mean, it's not like it is unheard of for class archetypes to have watered down versions of the class' class features. Investigator archetype could still give you the current DaS while the class itself could have the free action DaS.

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