The Resentment and the Occult Tradition


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Does "sustained up to x" even count as a timed duration as opposed to "exists until it doesn't" with an upper limit?


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gesalt wrote:
Does "sustained up to x" even count as a timed duration as opposed to "exists until it doesn't" with an upper limit?

A very RAW point of view would make Ongoing Misery nearly impossible to use. For example, once a spell duration ends all the conditions the spell gives are removed. So even if you extend the Slowed condition from Slow it is removed when the spell duration expires. But I don't think anyone wants to play it that way (as shown in numerous places).

So I think Ongoing Misery has to be read with a bit of interpretation. The duration of the Evil Eye spell is "Sustained up to 1 minute". It's a duration and as such can be expended by one round with the use of Ongoing Misery. It obviously only increases the duration of the Sickened condition, not the part where it is impossible to remove it which is no condition.


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gesalt wrote:
Does "sustained up to x" even count as a timed duration as opposed to "exists until it doesn't" with an upper limit?

Yes. 'Sustained' is 'Duration: until the end of your next turn'. Each Sustain renews this. And "Sustained up to x" means you can use Sustain up to x rounds/minutes.


SuperBidi wrote:


Most conditions don't have a duration. Haste gives the Quickened condition without a duration and I think you should be able to extend it beyond 1 minute (it's actually a very strong use of Ongoing Misery, buff an ally and extends the Quickened condition every round until you finally meet the enemies).

Your posts on this are sufficiently voluminous in their wrongness that I'm not going to address everything, but I will note that Ongoing Misery is specifically restricted to "prolonging the duration of any negative conditions" by 1 round.


Xenocrat wrote:
Your posts on this are sufficiently voluminous in their wrongness that I'm not going to address everything, but I will note that Ongoing Misery is specifically restricted to "prolonging the duration of any negative conditions" by 1 round.

I missed that, you're right.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

There are two things at discussion here: Evil Eye and Prolonged Misery.

For Evil Eye - It applies the sickened condition. While sustained, the condition cannot be reduced under 1. Considering how it worked with Frightened pre-Remaster, I contend that sicken acts as it normally does as a condition, regardless of whether you sustain it or not. So, if sustained, sickened can't be reduced under 1. If not sustained, sicken persists until it is removed by spending the one action and making the fort save (previously, if the target crit failed against Evil Eye and was Frightened 2, that did not disappear if you stopped sustaining the spell the next round. Instead, the condition ticked down as normal).

My major question is does the target know that a sustained sickened can't be reduced, or would they try to vomit at least once.


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Xenocrat wrote:
Your posts on this are sufficiently voluminous in their wrongness

I forgot to answer to my "wrongness".

Considering how you're eager to disprove me anytime you can I consider you don't have anything to back up your claim.

I already had this conversation on these boards and a lot of people told me I was wrong without any kind of evidence to back up their interpretation. But I see rules savvy players slowly shifting their mind so it's certainly just a question of time to get to the Overton window.


SuperBidi wrote:
A very RAW point of view would make Ongoing Misery nearly impossible to use. For example, once a spell duration ends all the conditions the spell gives are removed. So even if you extend the Slowed condition from Slow it is removed when the spell duration expires. But I don't think anyone wants to play it that way (as shown in numerous places).

I don't know what else Xenocrat meant, but this is very wrong and not RAW, for example. Because RAW is do as written: "prolonging the duration of any negative conditions affecting it by 1 round". Slow's success is "The target is slowed 1 for 1 round." Then with Ongoing Misery it becomes "The target is slowed 1 for 2 rounds." It's rather simple. And RAW.

On Slow's failure Ongoing Misery is almost irrelevant because there's not much difference between 10 and 11 rounds most of the time, but it still can be used.


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Errenor wrote:

I don't know what else Xenocrat meant, but this is very wrong and not RAW, for example. Because RAW is do as written: "prolonging the duration of any negative conditions affecting it by 1 round". Slow's success is "The target is slowed 1 for 1 round." Then with Ongoing Misery it becomes "The target is slowed 1 for 2 rounds." It's rather simple. And RAW.

On Slow's failure Ongoing Misery is almost irrelevant because there's not much difference between 10 and 11 rounds most of the time, but it still can be used.

Slow has a 1 minute duration and on a failure it gives the Slowed 1 condition for 1 minute. As the duration of the Slowed condition is equivalent to the spell duration it's not an ongoing effect and as such expires when the spell duration ends or if it is dispelled.

You can use Ongoing Misery on the Slowed condition to increase its duration to 11 rounds but it won't increase the duration of Slow itself.

Then, at the 10 rounds mark, the Slow spell expires removing the condition despite it's longer duration.

That's a very strict RAW reading, it seems not to be RAI. As such I agree with you we should allow the duration of a condition to extend longer than the spell duration even if it's not RAW.

Dark Archive

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SuperBidi wrote:


Slow has a 1 minute duration and on a failure it gives the Slowed 1 condition for 1 minute. As the duration of the Slowed condition is equivalent to the spell duration it's not an ongoing effect and as such expires when the spell duration ends or if it is dispelled.

You can use Ongoing Misery on the Slowed condition to increase its duration to 11 rounds but it won't increase the duration of Slow itself.

Then, at the 10 rounds mark, the Slow spell expires removing the condition despite it's longer duration.

That's a very strict RAW reading, it seems not to be RAI. As such I agree with you we should allow the duration of a condition to extend longer than the spell duration even if it's not RAW.

This is why I called this reading as nonsensical. It would mean that Ongoing Misery doesn't actually do much of anything.

Verdant Wheel

A lot of debate!

When I started this thread, it was meant to be "Advice" with a simple List of synergies.

Should probably be moved to "Rules" given it's multiple interpretations?

Maybe Gisher will make one of his Lists once we get some clarity on what a "Negative Condition" with a "Timed Duration" is and isn't?

=)

Dark Archive

Well here is an advice question!

What sources are there that give a circumstance penalty to saves? We're coming down with Status penalties, but there has to be a few circumstance ones out there as well.

All I can think of is the action from the Whispering Staff.


New Knowledge is Power wizard feat in remaster.


Catfolk dance for reflex
Distracting feint for reflex
Hot foot for reflex
Knowledge is power (needs a crit success for a -1 lmao) for all


Guy who uses 9th rank Pocket Library, a familiar with the knowledge aid setups, and archetype feats to maximize his crit rate on Knowledge is Power up to 10-20% for that -1 to saves and up to 1/50 altered results on offensive save spells.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Failed saving throw versus Amped Daze (Silent Whisper Psychic), which also applies Weakness 1 to Mental.

EDIT: Sorry, that's a status penalty to Will saves. Didn't see you only wanted Circumstance when I posted.


One minor balancing note about Resentment I haven't seen mentioned is that to pull it off on a 1 round duration you inflicted (like a successful save on your Slow) you have to cast/sustain your hex as the action after the spell. That's going to be inconvenient on an opening round if you'd planned to Evil Eye the target first. Either you Evil Eye first and hope to max your chance of a fail/crit fail on the main spell, or you delay for the success/sustain one round option.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Xenocrat wrote:
One minor balancing note about Resentment I haven't seen mentioned is that to pull it off on a 1 round duration you inflicted (like a successful save on your Slow) you have to cast/sustain your hex as the action after the spell. That's going to be inconvenient on an opening round if you'd planned to Evil Eye the target first. Either you Evil Eye first and hope to max your chance of a fail/crit fail on the main spell, or you delay for the success/sustain one round option.

It is a good excuse for your charismatic ally to burn their one use of Demoralize at the top of the fight though.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Xenocrat wrote:
One minor balancing note about Resentment I haven't seen mentioned is that to pull it off on a 1 round duration you inflicted (like a successful save on your Slow) you have to cast/sustain your hex as the action after the spell. That's going to be inconvenient on an opening round if you'd planned to Evil Eye the target first. Either you Evil Eye first and hope to max your chance of a fail/crit fail on the main spell, or you delay for the success/sustain one round option.

I keep coming across little limitations like this that all seem to add up to

NOT MAKE IT AS POWERFUL AS EVERYONE CLAIMS.


Ravingdork wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
One minor balancing note about Resentment I haven't seen mentioned is that to pull it off on a 1 round duration you inflicted (like a successful save on your Slow) you have to cast/sustain your hex as the action after the spell. That's going to be inconvenient on an opening round if you'd planned to Evil Eye the target first. Either you Evil Eye first and hope to max your chance of a fail/crit fail on the main spell, or you delay for the success/sustain one round option.

I keep coming across little limitations like this that all seem to add up to

NOT MAKE IT AS POWERFUL AS EVERYONE CLAIMS.

And yet why would you ever open with evil eye when you can revealing light, slow, or synesthesia. Or when you can just retry evil eye next turn anyway, since it needs a failed save and those aren't good odds to begin with. The power of resentment witch is in making enemies passing saves matter less when the duration is effectively "until the familiar pops"


gesalt wrote:
The power of resentment witch is in making enemies passing saves matter less when the duration is effectively "until the familiar pops"

Or until the witch is disrupted. "When you Cast or Sustain a hex..." [elsewhere] "If your Sustain action is disrupted, the ability ends..."


Easl wrote:
Or until the witch is disrupted. "When you Cast or Sustain a hex..." [elsewhere] "If your Sustain action is disrupted, the ability ends..."

Hard to do when a creature is slowed 1 and sickened for eternity.


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roquepo wrote:
Easl wrote:
Or until the witch is disrupted. "When you Cast or Sustain a hex..." [elsewhere] "If your Sustain action is disrupted, the ability ends..."
Hard to do when a creature is slowed 1 and sickened for eternity.

I agree with your logic but perhaps not with where you are going. Resentment is indeed more powerful (IMO) in 'big game hunting' encounters than in mob encounters or big+mob encounters. A single enemy may not have the actions to spend on disrupting the witch. Mobs, more likely they do. I am not one of those who see big game hunting as the be-all end-all of PF2E play, so I don't see "stronger than other patrons specifically in big game hunting situations" as a major balance issue.


Easl wrote:
I agree with your logic but perhaps not with where you are going. Resentment is indeed more powerful (IMO) in 'big game hunting' encounters than in mob encounters or big+mob encounters. A single enemy may not have the actions to spend on disrupting the witch. Mobs, more likely they do. I am not one of those who see big game hunting as the be-all end-all of PF2E play, so I don't see "stronger than other patrons specifically in big game hunting situations" as a major balance issue.

None of the other witch patrons are especially effective against groups though. Not that you need to be when you can just cast calm emotions and disable one or two while your martials rip through the rest. Don't need to extend basic conditions using hexes when you can just sustain "unable to take hostile actions" normally.

I don't see it as a balance issue though. Something being good/great while surrounded by bad to mediocre options isn't exactly an uncommon occurrence.


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gesalt wrote:
None of the other witch patrons are especially effective against groups though.

Faith, Inscribed, Spinner and Wilding provide a bonus to the PCs so they should probably be considered 'equally valid' whether it's one enemy or many. Silence is a terrain effect so may pick up some extra value when you have multiple opponents trying to target the witch or PCs standing near the witch. Starless is kinda a more limited Resentment, and I do wonder why they didn't at least give it the "standard" 15' range of familiar powers like faith, resentment, and spinner.

Quote:
I don't see it as a balance issue though. Something being good/great while surrounded by bad to mediocre options isn't exactly an uncommon occurrence.

I think this gets back to the general and wide ranging dispute across multiple threads about the value of conditional or tactical (or even noncombat) abilities when compared to direct always on combat abilities. Something like difficult terrain, concealment, or 60' tremorsense isn't as in-your-face-combatant as sustaining a fear effect or Silence's direct damage, this is true. I don't want to rehash that here. Suffice to say that I personally am glad that the witch patrons provide a variety of different effects than not. The folks who want a straight-up simple offense-enhancing patron have their option...but that preference doesn't dominate the design space, so that players not necessarily looking for that have options too.


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Casters are already good against multiple enemies thanks to their slots, so any ability that helps them vs strong enemies are IMO more important than anything that improves their AoE.

I personally find encounters against multiple PL or PL +1 enemies more dangerous on average than encounters against a single enemy past a certain level (with the exception of PL +4 cause at some level thresholds the math is just against you), but the ones that can struggle the most with those encounters are not the casters.


Yikes, I wish I had jumped in here sooner.

I think the way to explain the Ongoing Misery familiar's curse is to divorce/ignore the named condition inflicted onto a creature from the effect that put it there.

Key difference is if a spell/ect only exists for a moment to inflict a lingering condition, or if the spell effect itself has a duration that can be extended.

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It seems most are in agreement that a regular "and inflicts Sickened 1 on hit" effect would not be compatible with the familiar's curse.

This is the same ruling that applies to most instances of frightened 1.

With Dread Ampoule as an example, it does not say "... until the end of your next turn" like most bomb debuffs.
Instead, it just says "On hit the target becomes frightened 1, or frightened 2 on a critical hit."

Hit or crit, the familiar's curse is not applicable here. The bomb only had a momentary impact. After the hit, it is now the target that is doing the recovering, there is no lingering effect for the curse to hook into.

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In contrast, the rare ability/spell/ect that has the effect of "the target is frightened/sickened 1 for 2 turns" , ect, is completely different in concept.

This is a debuff condition that is still sticking to the target. Once the listed duration runs out, the effect is dislodged or expires, but the condition is still there, now able to recover normally (usually instantly, but not for frightened/sickened).

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The familiar's curse is worded to be able to extend any clinging effect, and to specifically exclude interacting with a target's ongoing conditions/afflictions.

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The main reason for confusion is honestly how well pf2e keeps the word count down.

The difference between a sticky effect that imparts a condition while it lingers, and some effect that inflicts a condition only for an instant and then is gone, is just a few words.

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IDK how anyone could see that familiar's curse as too under-powered under that ruling, and it's important to remember that this is a team game.

Even an Investigator has Shared Stratagem to grant off-guard for allies when popping DaS, there's loads of clinging effects across the classes for the familiar's curse to be *extremely* good, even at low level.


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Sickened 1 for 2 turns doesn't mean you can't try to recover before then, it means Sickened ends, period, after 2 turns. And possibly earlier, unless something (e.g. Evil Eye) specifically forbids recovery while the effect is active.

"Whenever you’re affected by a condition, its effects last until the condition’s stated duration ends, the condition is removed, or terms dictated in the condition itself cause it to end."

Frightened almost never has a duration applied, so it's almost never applicable to try and extend it, because the rules for the condition cause you to recover automatically over time in short order. And duration does not prevent recovery, so even if you could extend it, that wouldn't prevent recovery without text explicitly doing so (such as the old Evil Eye).

This, of course, is why you use conditions that don't have built-in recovery mechanisms, like Slow. Or Enfeebled. They could still use an ability that clears conditions to break it, but that's pretty rare on enemies in my experience.

The condition extending effects are less useful against groups of enemies, but as has been noted, spellcasters are strong against groups of enemies in general. But if a campaign tends to not have single big enemy boss fights, Resentment loses relative value compared to other patrons. Faith and Weaver in particular don't really care about how many enemies you have (as you can just empower your frontliner to cut down stuff faster either way). Winter is going to be chipping away HP at the same rate with their hex no matter how many enemies there are, etc. This doesn't really make Resentment bad though, it's just that it ranges from "the best" to "really good" depending on the campaign.


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Xenocrat wrote:
One minor balancing note about Resentment I haven't seen mentioned is that to pull it off on a 1 round duration you inflicted (like a successful save on your Slow) you have to cast/sustain your hex as the action after the spell. That's going to be inconvenient on an opening round if you'd planned to Evil Eye the target first. Either you Evil Eye first and hope to max your chance of a fail/crit fail on the main spell, or you delay for the success/sustain one round option.

There's a much bigger action economy issue with the Resentment which is that you need 3 actions to deliver both your save spell and a Hex cantrip, but you also need your Familiar to be 15ft away from the enemy (and yourself certainly 30ft. away from them for Evil Eye). So you need a 4th action for movement. And you can't use Patron's Puppet as you can't cast 2 Hexes per round.

Overall, I think the Resentment works better with a Mount. Cast Slow/Synesthesia/whatever and if the enemy succeeds at the save move with your mount and your familiar on your shoulder and then Evil Eye for the condition to stick.
Or you play with another caster who's the one doing the debuff (as an Occult caster, it's pretty sad...).

Ravingdork wrote:
NOT MAKE IT AS POWERFUL AS EVERYONE CLAIMS.

It's my intuition since the beginning, I want to see a Resentment Witch in play to know for sure if it's that powerful or just meh.

roquepo wrote:
Casters are already good against multiple enemies thanks to their slots

The Occult spell list is not really the best to deal with multiple enemies. Good multi-target spells appear only in the late game. Arcane and Primal are really the go-to lists to deal with many enemies. And Divine, with its ability to cherry pick AoE spells from other traditions, tend to be the third one.


There's a lot of rules lawyering going on here. Most of it in good faith I believe.

But the degree of this back & forth really makes me think we need an official rules clarification, preferably with a few examples.


SuperBidi wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
One minor balancing note about Resentment I haven't seen mentioned is that to pull it off on a 1 round duration you inflicted (like a successful save on your Slow) you have to cast/sustain your hex as the action after the spell. That's going to be inconvenient on an opening round if you'd planned to Evil Eye the target first. Either you Evil Eye first and hope to max your chance of a fail/crit fail on the main spell, or you delay for the success/sustain one round option.

There's a much bigger action economy issue with the Resentment which is that you need 3 actions to deliver both your save spell and a Hex cantrip, but you also need your Familiar to be 15ft away from the enemy (and yourself certainly 30ft. away from them for Evil Eye). So you need a 4th action for movement. And you can't use Patron's Puppet as you can't cast 2 Hexes per round.

That's an interesting point, but I'm not sure how practical it is with Indepedent and a 25/40 move speed, given that every hex except Phase Familiar that isn't personal is a range of 30. I guess it depends on when the independent action happens, but given what people usually use them for (scroll/wand/potion swaps) I think most tables let it happen before the PC acts. As long as your target is within 30' you can do (1) independent familiar action to approach target, (2) cast Blindness/Slow/Whatever, (3) Evil Eye.

If it's 55 away and your familiar has independent and speed abilities you can still pull it off by Life Boosting an ally as your hex for (3).

Amusingly you can just run a normal turn and hope your familiar gets attacked off turn so you can reaction Phase Familiar to maintain the duration before it expires as a clown option.


Xenocrat wrote:

I guess it depends on when the independent action happens

With the clarification Mature Animal Companion got, I don't think it is unreasonable to claim that Independent is intended to work the same way.


Xenocrat wrote:
That's an interesting point, but I'm not sure how practical it is with Indepedent and a 25/40 move speed

You're right, Independent is another solution, a clearly less costly one.

Xenocrat wrote:
If it's 55 away and your familiar has independent and speed abilities you can still pull it off by Life Boosting an ally as your hex for (3).

You can also Evil Eye the air...

This is the second time casting an offensive cantrip in the air is useful. I really feel the design of giving an extra, non-related, effect to Hexes is mechanically not that good.

Xenocrat wrote:
Amusingly you can just run a normal turn and hope your familiar gets attacked off turn so you can reaction Phase Familiar to maintain the duration before it expires as a clown option.

Even if you managed to increase the duration normally, using Phase Familiar saves an action during your next turn. So it will be useful sometimes.

Using Patron's Puppet has the same effect of saving the Hex action on top of giving the Familiar 2 actions. It can even be used to increase the spell duration if you are somehow incapacitated, depending on the condition (and the GM as I feel there'll be different visions as to "who" uses Patron's Puppet).


SuperBidi wrote:

You can also Evil Eye the air...

This is the second time casting an offensive cantrip in the air is useful. I really feel the design of giving an extra, non-related, effect to Hexes is mechanically not that good.

I think Witch should just have a generic 1-action No-Op Hex that they can use to trigger the effects.


You could also open with revealing light since it has a duration of two rounds on a successful save. Gives you some leeway to position yourself without needing to worry about extending it the moment it lands. Or just let the boss move in first if it's any kind of melee attacker. Lots of people forget that one's an option.

Can't say I've had much trouble with mook control as occult though. That's a bit of a new one for me.


Finoan wrote:
I think Witch should just have a generic 1-action No-Op Hex that they can use to trigger the effects.

Three of the seven witch hex cantrips are made to cast on allies and one of the remaining four (Shroud) has both an offensive (usually) and supportive (rarely) use. So fully half of the possible witch builds already have this. If a player is considering a witch character and being able to cast a hex, with no opponent present, get a benefit from that hex AND simultaneously trigger their familiar's power is an important play activity to them, they can easily build such a witch. True, not every patron and tradition gets every option of "offensive or supportive" hex cantrips. Each patron gets basically one or the other. But that's kinda true across the board, not just with witch. For any class, picking subclass A means not getting those nice cool benefits you like that subclass B gets.


Easl wrote:
For any class, picking subclass A means not getting those nice cool benefits you like that subclass B gets.

Like not getting any meaningful use out of the Wilding Steward's Patron familiar ability. Good tradeoff option there.


Farien wrote:
Easl wrote:
For any class, picking subclass A means not getting those nice cool benefits you like that subclass B gets.
Like not getting any meaningful use out of the Wilding Steward's Patron familiar ability. Good tradeoff option there.

You agree it mechanically works in encounter mode without an opponent. You agree it mechanically works in exploration mode. This is in addition to the baseline agreement that it mechanically works in encounter mode with enemies present.

I guess at this point I have to say we seem to agree on the facts of when it can be triggered, and we just differ on whether those facts count as "meaningful use" or not. I think those amount to a meaningfully useful ability. To you, these agreed-upon uses do not amount to a meaningfully useful ability. Is that an accurate summary of where we stand?


For the most part. Keen Senses is technically usable. And somewhat useful in certain campaign styles and table preferences.

There is still the question of 'why do I want to jump through all these hoops and risk rules questions at the table when I could instead pick a different Witch patron (like Silence in Snow) and just use the Tremorsense, Wavesense, or Scent familiar abilities?'

Personally I like the Silence in Snow Patron. With the removal of the temporary immunity Clinging Ice has become one of the best 1-action blasting spells available. The familiar ability is a bit limited use and probably won't be relevant much, but that is a reasonable tradeoff.

And many of the other patrons are even better in comparison to Wilding Steward as long as you aren't determined to use Primal tradition.

But that seems a bit off-topic on this thread.

As for granting Witch in general a No-Op Hex, what harm does it do to Witch Patrons that have a Hex cantrip that is intended to be used on themselves or their allies? Sure, they will likely never use it. But it doesn't hurt them any.

But for Patrons that have Hostile Action cantrips but want to use their Patron Familiar ability outside of combat... Why not allow that without doing a bunch of rules-lawyering?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It's very Paizo forums that people here can't even agree on what 'condition' or 'duration' or 'ends' mean.


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It really makes a huge difference whether only basic, defined glossary conditions count or any negative value change, and I honestly don't know what they intended. There has been an order of magnitude less fighting about this so far than I expected.


Yeah, there is a big difference in value if only named conditions such as 'Frightened', 'Slowed', or 'Doomed' count or if unnamed conditions defined in a spell effect also qualify.

But I have no answer for that, so it doesn't seem worth arguing about. The end result of the discussion on it would be, "you will have to work that out with your GM".


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Xenocrat wrote:
It really makes a huge difference whether only basic, defined glossary conditions count or any negative value change, and I honestly don't know what they intended. There has been an order of magnitude less fighting about this so far than I expected.

Not everyone has the remaster yet and its still not on AoN. Give them time.


Finoan wrote:
There is still the question of 'why do I want to jump through all these hoops and risk rules questions at the table when I could instead pick a different Witch patron (like Silence in Snow) and just use the Tremorsense, Wavesense, or Scent familiar abilities?'

Familiar of Keen Senses has twice the range of any of them, and lets you rotate through all three abilities on your familiar every time you cast rather than locking in a sense for the day. IMO that's a significant upgrade. Is it worth the Patron or the 'opportunity cost' of not taking Silence in Snow? I guess that's up to each player to decide.

I like Silence in Snow too. But I am happy that Paizo gave us two very different primal Patrons, with one geared for combat and the other more exploratory/info gathering. I get that some players may want all subclass 'specials' to be equivalently focused on and geared up for combat, but I'm not one of them.

Quote:
As for granting Witch in general a No-Op Hex, what harm does it do to Witch Patrons that have a Hex cantrip that is intended to be used on themselves or their allies?

Personally I wouldn't be opposed to "pick one of two" (or three) hex cantrip options for each patron...or even a 'zeroeth lesson' feat, with three options for a hex cantrip and 'familiar learns' standard cantrip. But I'm not holding my breath. If this is bothering your table play right now, I'd recommend homebrewing something rather than hoping/waiting/requesting Paizo address it.


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I just thought of another way to get your Familiar at just the right place: Make it ride someone else's Animal Companion. Preferably someone with high Initiative, like a Druid or Ranger. As such, your Familiar will always end up in the thick of things for no action on your part and you'll be able to use Familiar abilities (especially Patron's Puppet) very easily.

It's also possible to have the Familiar ride a melee martial but you may face more opposition, both from the "mount" and from the GM (as I'm not sure there's a rule allowing Familiars to ride their master, it's GM fiat to allow it).


SuperBidi wrote:
It's also possible to have the Familiar ride a melee martial but you may face more opposition, both from the "mount" and from the GM (as I'm not sure there's a rule allowing Familiars to ride their master, it's GM fiat to allow it).

Just be careful comboing Barbarian with a hamster familiar, or you might get Pinkertons showing up at your door...

Can you pull off the three-stack combo though? Martial on bottom, Pest form witch on shoulder, familiar on pest form witch shoulder ;)

Liberty's Edge

I think the wording on it is pretty air-tight, it extends the duration of EVERY "negative condition" that is applied to ANY creature within 15 feet of it by one round every time you Cast or Sustain any Hex.

The term "condition" has a very specific mechanical meaning and context and there is a whole section at the back of PC1 that lists all of them. The only real vagueness here is the term "negative" which could require some interpretation.

There are also some things that can feel a bit strange since it is the condition that is being extended and conditions can be applied by spells, abilities, and effects that also do OTHER things which, despite this ability going off will end while the condition applied by the spell pretty clearly will NOT end with the regular duration of the effect that applied it, and example of this would be Uncontrollable Dance (Tier 8 Spell) that makes the target Off-Guard and so they cannot use Reactions for the duration of the Spell plus some other junk related to nerfing the living daylights out of the Stride Actions that they take. In this situation, the Spell could end anytime between one full minute and 3 rounds depending on how the target rolled their save and if they have their condition extended during the duration of the spell, even once they are no longer required to dance and can then use Reactions they will absolutely still have the Off-Guard condition applied to them for 1 additional round for every time the Witch/Familiar uses that ability even while all other effects of the Spell have completely faded.

Other strange examples would be the Grabbed and Restrained Conditions which via the Grapple mechanic do very clearly have a Duration on them that is again defined by the result of the check (in this case a Skill Check) against the target meaning that if an enemy is Grappled and has Grabbed applied to them by an ally of yours you can extend the duration of how long that lasts by default, now, they can still use Escape to try to get out and the condition would still end if the ally lets go of them but the grabbed (or restrained) condition would simply not automatically go away and end at the end of the next turn of the creature that succeeded in doing the Grapple.

This ability is nowhere NEAR as niche as some people here seem to think it is and is extremely flexible/powerful.


Themetricsystem wrote:
This ability is nowhere NEAR as niche as some people here seem to think it is and is extremely flexible/powerful.

I think the reason people consider it niche is that they want to increase potent Conditions. The Grabbed Condition is mostly interesting because it gives Off-Guard. Sure, it's nice to be able to increase the duration of such a Condition, but that's not impressive like it is when you increase the Slowed, Confused or Clumsy 3 Conditions.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ongoing Misery is considered niche because there are lots of extremely common abilities and conditions it just doesn't work with (evil eye, frightened, sickened, etc.), most spell effect durations are not short enough to warrant its use (most fights will end before the duration so why bother wasting the actions?), and because there are few situations in which using it is tactically sound and won't end up having your familiar getting immediately swatted for the day.

Much of that can change depending on your table's interpretation of what conditions can be extended, how aware characters are of durations, whether or not enemies can tell that the familiar is even using curses, or if you have a lenient or permissive GM, but that does not often seem to be the case in most of these discussions.

That being said, it IS powerful as well as niche. The idea that you could potentially keep someone perpetually confused or dominated is positively terrifying no matter where you come down in the debate. Nevertheless, people conveniently tend to forget to mention other factors such as how confused targets attack anyone who harms them (does a cursing familiar count?) or how a dominated thrall refuses all sorts of orders and will never make it past other NPCs unsuspected with a constantly hissing familiar always close behind.

Besides, most familiars need to eat and sleep like any other creature, and the act of hissing all the time is likely as exhausting as a person yelling continuously. I for one would not allow it for longer than other effects (such as with the Sustain action).

In the right situation it can be a game changer, but if you take everything into account and understand that most things in PF2e are self-correcting and self-balancing, more often than not it just isn't.


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Themetricsystem wrote:
I think the wording on it is pretty air-tight, it extends the duration of EVERY "negative condition" that is applied to ANY creature within 15 feet of it by one round every time you Cast or Sustain any Hex.

Nope. It's one target at a time, though obviously you can switch targets each time you cast a hex. From the description:

When you Cast or Sustain a hex, your familiar can curse a creature within 15 feet of it, prolonging the duration of any negative conditions affecting it by 1 round...

"a creature." "it". One target. Still powerful, but not as powerful as you described.

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