|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm wondering if something that could cut down on the complexity and power for Animist while keeping their flexibility is to cut their spell slots to 2 or 3 per spell level, give them flexible casting by default, and let them pick 1 divine spell per spell level for the day, while their apparition spells are also on their daily list of prepared spells. Thoughts?
Absolutely not. The entire point of the class is that they are a hybrid of prepared and spontaneous caster, in that you both prepare spells and cast them spontaneously. While I do think the Animist ought to have the option to pick flexible spellcasting if they so wish (currently they can't, as they don't have the same spell slots as other prepared casters), I don't think it would make a lot of players happy if that were the default. Most of the people who currently enjoy the class's implementation also seem to want it to be a 1e class, rather than a D&D 5e class.
Personally, I'd want to give the class the basic chassis of a 3-slot caster, so that they get to prepare 3 spells per spell rank. This would, among other things, allow the Animist to opt into the flexible spellcaster archetype. What I'd want to implement as a twist, however, is that the Animist could also use any of those spell slots for spontaneous spellcasting: you could take any spell you've prepared, and instead use its slot to cast an apparition spell, heightened automatically to that slot's level, and thereby sacrificing the original prepared spell. From my very limited experience testing this out (I also tried out a similar mechanic for a Witch brew I dabbled with then abandoned a long while ago), this felt really good to use, because you could prepare more niche spells and feel secure knowing that if they didn't work out for the day, you could still use their slot for your spontaneous spells. It also opens up the possibility for a high-level feat that could allow you to cast the prepared spell at the same time as the spontaneous spell you're casting with its slot, at least for lower-rank slots.
Thaumaturge is literally modeled after the PF1e Occultist and the only thing they have in common is implements, as the monster hunting abilities kinda resemble those of the Inquisitor and having Charisma as KAS is totally unique. Hell, even the implements aren't a 1:1 in how they work or feel in PF1e.
Animist's unique feature is their mix of prepared and spontaneous, and while it technically doesn't have presedence in it's inspirations, neither does having divine spells as PF1e Medium was psychic, PF1e Shaman was divine but clearly druid themed so kinda primal in a sense, and 3.5 Binders weren't even casters to begin with. If you think about it, they kinda took the Medium's and Shaman's spellcasting and mashed them together.
With that said, I think this class should have flexible casting as I always felt the PF2e Shaman should be the class that could flex their spell list everyday. I wouldn't even bother if they actually reduced the amount of prepared spells to just 1 to compensate for that huge versatile.
Where are you getting the impression that the entire point of the class is it being a hybrid of prepared and spontaneous caster when the lead designer has stated that it is modeled after the 3.5 Binder and PF1 Medium?
Perhaps reading the class features would help. The playtest material goes to great lengths to describe how the Animist's hybrid of prepared and spontaneous casting also reflects them channelling the magic of two worlds. The Medium is also a pure spontaneous caster and the Binder isn't a caster at all, so it's not like either lend themselves to flexible spellcasting either.
|
|
Thaumaturge is literally modeled after the PF1e Occultist and the only thing they have in common is implements, as the monster hunting abilities kinda resemble those of the Inquisitor and having Charisma as KAS is totally unique. Hell, even the implements aren't a 1:1 in how they work or feel in PF1e.
But the key mechanical similarity between the 2 is their build versatility. Occultists and Thaumaturges can be build in a multitude of wildly different ways. Occultists, while very heavy with spells and spell like abilities could easily be built as incredibly effective martials. The Thaumaturge, while a martial, can easily and effectively multiclass into Sorcerer and freely use scrolls from any tradition.
The key point of the Binder and Medium are their in-play role versatility and Michael Sayre has already gone into length explaining that that is the mechanical focus of the Animist.
The key point of the Binder and Medium are their in-play role versatility and Michael Sayre has already gone into length explaining that that is the mechanical focus of the Animist.
Would you happen to have a link to the relevant post or moment in a stream where Michael Sayre indicates that the Animist's most important feature is their apparition-based flexibility, and that their current hybrid spellcasting isn't important to the class?
|
|
The key point of the Binder and Medium are their in-play role versatility and Michael Sayre has already gone into length explaining that that is the mechanical focus of the Animist.Would you happen to have a link to the relevant post or moment in a stream where Michael Sayre indicates that the Animist's most important feature is their apparition-based flexibility, and that their current hybrid spellcasting isn't important to the class?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKov9tranb8&ab_channel=Paizo
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Where are you getting the impression that the entire point of the class is it being a hybrid of prepared and spontaneous caster when the lead designer has stated that it is modeled after the 3.5 Binder and PF1 Medium?
I mean the class has like two unique mechanics: hybrid casting and vessel spells.
So I feel like it's pretty straight forward those are meant to be its core mechanics... because that's the whole class.
Changing that would be seriously diminishing one of its standout features.
I do feel like it might have too many spells for what it does, but I'm not sure the best way to alter that progression and I definitely don't think it should lose its unique mechanics.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Where are you getting the impression that the entire point of the class is it being a hybrid of prepared and spontaneous caster when the lead designer has stated that it is modeled after the 3.5 Binder and PF1 Medium?I mean the class has like two unique mechanics: hybrid casting and vessel spells.
So I feel like it's pretty straight forward those are meant to be its core mechanics... because that's the whole class.
Changing that would be seriously diminishing one of its standout features.
I do feel like it might have too many spells for what it does, but I'm not sure the best way to alter that progression and I definitely don't think it should lose its unique mechanics.
I think using the 2 different types adds a lot of unneeded complexity that will turn some people off, while I think the addition of apparition spells to your list is the big draw. I can see the plus of having the benefits of both prepared and spontaneous casting so that's why I figured, simplify and have the best of both worlds while sacrificing some casting longevity. Wouldn't be a loss if my idea was thrown out but figured I'd throw it on the table.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKov9tranb8&ab_channel=Paizo
That's nice, but the video does not support your claim. Unless you have a particular timestamp that proves otherwise, it looks like hybrid spellcasting is a defining aspect of the Animist.
Also, I never said that their spellcasting isn't important, it's just not the mechanical focus. You are being incredibly dishonest. You are the one who said that the spellcasting is the entire point of the class and I said it very much is not and the video is hard evidence of the fact.
You are making the literally incredible claim that the Animist's mix of prepared and spontaneous spellcasting, arguably their defining mechanical difference from other spellcasters, has no significant bearing on the class's mechanics or theme, to the point where you could just do away with it entirely. Such strong claims require equally strong evidence, and a one-hour video that features no such evidence (in fact, at around the 11:00 mark, Mike and James both highlight how sharing magic as well as extra abilities is an important part of how the apparitions work) just ain't it. Throwing that video out there with no timestamp, knowing that it wouldn't support your claim, is what is truly dishonest.
Start at the 7:50.
I did. Mike Sayre setting the context for the Animist and what led to its development has strictly no bearing on the decision they made to give it hybrid spellcasting, which once again is mentioned several times later on as an important part of how the Animist and their apparitions work with each other. If this is really your best attempt, then clearly you don't have a leg to stand on.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The concept of the class, casting wise, is that of a divine caster who can rotate additional spells into their daily repertoire. Making it part prepared and part spontaneous is what they decided to do, and it clearly defines the class (at least for the playtest) from a mechanical point of view; but I don't find it strictly necessary to attain the concept I described - which is more important than its implementation.
If this mechanical implementation gets widely rejected by the players for any reason (too complex, etc.), what should the developers do? Scrap the Animist because its 'defining aspect' doesn't work? No, I'm 100% sure that they would find a different set of mechanics that work better towards the same goal.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think that this thing of put half your spell slots into a separated types of conjuration unrelated and unmixable was just a trial to make something different in mechanical aspects but I don't see this as something the defines the class. It's just a trial to do something different with the spellcasting but honestly is basically a in chassis 2 slots per day class like psychics with a cleric MC. It's nothing revolutionary and doesn't integrate well.
What defines the current playtest Animist is its apparition being able to act like a flexible bloodline (that defines the class thematically IMO) and the Vessel Spells focused into strong 1-action sustainable focus spells (that defines the class mechanically IMO).
And as Megistone said. This isn't write into stone even characteristics that defines the class can change after the playtest if the players don't like or if the designer get a better idea after the playtest results.
And as Megistone said. This isn't write into stone even characteristics that defines the class can change after the playtest if the players don't like or if the designer get a better idea after the playtest results.
I feel this is a bit of a straw man, because so far I'm seeing only one person even remotely looking like they're defending the Animist's current spell slot implementation. The general consensus appears to be that the current stacking of different types of spell slots is cumbersome and could do with a change, but I don't think that automatically means we need to switch to flexible spellcasting, or abandon the hybrid casting model without looking for alternative means of implementing it.
Just to reiterate the above: if the Animist had the standard 3 slots per level as a prepared divine caster, but then could have apparition spells override those prepared spell slots and use them for spontaneous casting, you'd genuinely have the best of both worlds. It wouldn't be flexible spellcasting, but unlike the current model it would let you opt into the Flexible Spellcaster archetype if you so wished. Not only would it simplify the class's spell slots dramatically, it would let the Animist's spellcasting stand out even more, because the player would have much more agency over how much of their spell power to dedicate to their divine versus their apparition spells on a daily basis. It would also give the Animist much more room to prepare more niche spells, on the knowledge that they could always override those spells with apparition spells if they don't work out for the day.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just to reiterate the above: if the Animist had the standard 3 slots per level as a prepared divine caster, but then could have apparition spells override those prepared spell slots and use them for spontaneous casting, you'd genuinely have the best of both worlds. It wouldn't be flexible spellcasting, but unlike the current model it would let you opt into the Flexible Spellcaster archetype if you so wished. Not only would it simplify the class's spell slots dramatically, it would let the Animist's spellcasting stand out even more, because the player would have much more agency over how much of their spell power to dedicate to their divine versus their apparition spells on a daily basis. It would also give the Animist much more room to prepare more niche spells, on the knowledge that they could always override those spells with apparition spells if they don't work out for the day.
I could easily work with that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I feel this is a bit of a straw man, because so far I'm seeing only one person even remotely looking like they're defending the Animist's current spell slot implementation. The general consensus appears to be that the current stacking of different types of spell slots is cumbersome and could do with a change, but I don't think that automatically means we need to switch to flexible spellcasting, or abandon the hybrid casting model without looking for alternative means of implementing it.
Personally, I find the way Animist currently mixes both prepared and spontaneous slots to be pretty fun and I wouldn't mind it sticking around to release. Plus it's no more complicated than a Wizard taking the Psychic archetype (so long as you have your Apparition entries on-hand, which why wouldn't you?).
Just to reiterate the above: if the Animist had the standard 3 slots per level as a prepared divine caster, but then could have apparition spells override those prepared spell slots and use them for spontaneous casting, you'd genuinely have the best of both worlds.
Isn't this effectively what 1E Cleric had in place of Divine Font? Being able to cast a Cure Wounds in place of your prepared spells using their slots? That could be an interesting way to go about it.
Isn't this effectively what 1E Cleric had in place of Divine Font? Being able to cast a Cure Wounds in place of your prepared spells using their slots? That could be an interesting way to go about it.
Yes and no. The equivalent of Divine Font in PF1e was Channel Energy, which was a feature that allowed them to heal 1d6 per two cleric levels above 1 in a 30-foot radius centered around them (though for some reason it wasn't able to heal allies and damage undead at the same time, you had to choose to do one of them at moment of using it for some reason), though clerics also had the choice to spontanously replace their preapared spells with the "cure" spells as well.
In a sense, Divine Font is a mix of both.