AM i misunderstanding something or would Victor's Wreath be insanely good.

Exemplar Class Discussion

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The Exemplar has lots of cool Ikons and i really like the modularity of the class but there is an ability that stood out to me. The Transcendence ability from the Victors Wreath worn Ikon "One Moment till Glory"

Playtest wrote:

You rally your allies, carrying them from the brink

of disaster to the verge of victory. Each ally in your aura
immediately makes a new saving throw with a +2 status
bonus against one ongoing negative effect or condition
they are currently affected by, even if that effect would not
normally allow a new saving throw.

So at first this seemed very useful to me in combat. Your ally gets hit with a nasty spell, say they crit fail against overwhelming presence. You give them another save with a +2 even if the effect doesnt normally grant one. Or you free them of being slowed or paralyzed or stunned.

But ongoing negative effect is not clearly defined, right? Curses, sicknesses and poisons would also fall under that. This ability would practically negate all long term negative effects like curses and illnesses completely since you can just roll a lot out of combat.

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Well, divine casters in particular can eventually just throw spell slot after spell slot at removing really long term effects, so if anything is unusual it's mainly that you have this from level 1. And that it can be spammed every six seconds.

(And there's also Thaumaturge's Paragon Chalice, but that's a level 17 class feature so it's totally fine for it to be an absolutely insane healing ability) might need to have a clause limiting it to once per day against curses and diseases or something? Or possibly get upgrades with levels on what it can clear. In-combat conditions are less of an issue since the action costs are real there.

Exemplar is just, spell slot the Divine Warrior instead.

One Moment till Glory doesn't have a immunity or cooldown

it is extremely overpowered

even with immunity or cooldown it will be 13 or 17 level stuff for other class

exemplar get 3 ikon at level 1

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So I have seen this suggested before that it can get rid of any negative effects, but some of the things people bring up don't seem to have saves at all, so how would you ever succeed at the new save if there is not specific DC for a success.

Came here to post that this ability is insanely good. Disease, Curse, and other long-term issues that require high level spell slots are suddenly not an issue for any of the Exemplar's companions.

And that's not even addressing the fact that, for a couple actions, you could also be allowing allies to get out of poison and spells far earlier than designed, every single time they come up. Additionally, besides being super effective, I don't see this being a very fun way to play the game... "The lich weaves arcane symbols and casts Heightened slow on all of you." "Alright, I guess I know what my next turn or two is."

I assume it can't remove things that don't allow a Save at all, but that still makes huge swaths of the Monsters available drop in threat level significantly.

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The ability not only seems incredibly powerful (re-save w/ +2 for all nearby allies for a single action), but allowing it to work against any condition/negative effect also has both powerful and uncertain implications.

Does re-saving against a spell like Synesthesia reset the duration? Is it the same saving throw with the same outcomes as the spell, or is it just pass/fail to end the effect?

In addition, the transcendence ability being infinitely repeatable just means that long-lasting conditions and negative effects just stop existing.

Finally, the narrative power it gives characters is kind of nuts, giving the Exemplar the ability to solve so many otherwise unsolvable or level-gated issues. Curing diseases, lifting curses, removing lasting injury, etc. While a GM can fiat that away or just give negative effects arbitrarily high DCs, doing that feels like a betrayal of the ability's premise and is dissatisfying because of it. As such, the premise itself should probably be altered instead of making promises that the system and GM cannot reasonably keep.

I think how this intersects with Afflictions is a major confusion point as well.

If they fail the save does the Affliction advance staves? That's one thing that would make this not quite as potent since you risk rapidly advancing the curse/disease/poison that might otherwise take much longer to run its course.

Meanwhile, if this just imparts a basic "you either cleanse the effect or nothing different happens" it would trivialize afflictions.

I'm hoping it's the former, as that's how my initial read goes. From a narrative standpoint it also prevents the exemplar from single handedly curing plagues. If the NPCs are hit with a DC they can't succeed on without a 20, the exemplar spamming this would just hasten the deaths of everyone effected.

True, advancing on a failure is how it works as written, so this is... awkward there. The value varies with the condition involved. It probably should be changed so that:

1) It can't be used repeatedly on the same condition
2) It can't make it worse
3) It adds new condition types it can affect over time (frightened/sickened/poisons at level 1, add other stuff as it scales)

Making it only allow re-saves against effects that already allow it and making it only allow a single re-save against the same effect might address a lot of the narrative/structural concerns while still being incredibly strong. You could probably remove the bonus outright and it would still be incredibly good thanks to just how efficient it is (especially when most other Transcendance abilities are pretty standard in terms of action economy).

Although, if these changes are made, then there will be more instances where the ability doesn't do anything. The other Worn Ikons don't have this issue, since they're proactive rather than mitigative. Maybe have it grant a re-save and some temp HP? A re-save and a one-round bonus on subsequent saves? Just a bonus against future saves and no re-save?

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