Witch Rework: Wilding Steward Needs a Serious Rework


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:


(Wow, that is a…lot. Lots to see and cogitate about, waaaay more than just the witch. Is there a thread for a breakdown of all this other stuff?)

[end threadjack]

It's great, isn't it?

I think there isn't one big thread, could be wrong though! This one is mostly about witch.


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SuperBidi wrote:


You are comparing one of the main abilities of some classes with a small ability aimed at making your Familiar less fragile. I hardly consider the comparison valid.

If they expect familiars to be ever-present in melee then keeping the familiar alive is as core to the witch as is protecting your allies is to a champion.

Yes, I think it's an extremely valid comparison because of this.

SuperBidi wrote:


shroudb wrote:
Obviously I'm not calling to be made as powerful, but seeing as the two above have 0 cost, I fail to see why phase familiar has such a steep cost.

Steep? One reaction, but reactions are quite cheap to casters. And a Focus Point on a class who will have spare Focus Points as soon as the new rule on Refocusing will be out.

Before the change on Refocusing, I'd have agreed with you. But with the new Refocus, you'll have more Focus Points than you can use unless you grab Focus Spells outside your class (which is not a given).

Saying that it's not cheap just because now you have 2 usable focus points instead of 1 is willful ignorance.

That just means that you have to rest 10 minutes more to prevent 5 damage from the familiar.
Again, 5 damage, once per combat, for 10 mins of rest.

The cost of a focus point, on a class designed with focus powers on mind, is extremely steep.

SuperBidi wrote:


But most importantly: this ability is just a side ability. It's not strong but it's useful and usable, I hardly see why you hate it so much.

When you kept the familiar far away from danger? Sure.

Now not even close.
Now it is integral to the class to function as they want us to.


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Costing a focus point is kinda steep. Especially on PF2.4 Witch that is a 3-slot caster with a 4-slot caster chassis. In combat they are supposed to be using their focus points on casting useful things - not keeping their familiar alive.

But the biggest limitation on Phase Familiar is actually the Hex trait. Depending on how it is ruled, using your Hex cantrip will prevent you from saving your familiar when it is the enemy's turn even if you have your reaction available and the focus point to spend on it.


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The focus point cost on Phase Familiar was unnecessary. If it were a cantrip or ability the witch could use at will just costing a reaction, then it would be worth using. A focus point to save a fairly worthless familiar is not worth the trade off.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:
WWHsmackdown wrote:
I was encouraged with what I saw in the witch preview. Excited play a remastered winter witch with a little frosty scamp
Where was the preview? Was it a little snip in the blog or something more expansive…
Ravingdork has you covered here.
Why…yes…he does. Thanks Ravingdork!

You're welcome!


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breithauptclan wrote:
Costing a focus point is kinda steep. Especially on PF2.4 Witch that is a 3-slot caster with a 4-slot caster chassis. In combat they are supposed to be using their focus points on casting useful things - not keeping their familiar alive.

But all Witch's Focus Spells are also Hexes, so they are limited to one per turn and compete with your Hex Cantrip. Fights where you'll need both of your Focus Points for other things are not that common, unless you invest in non-Witch Focus Powers. So there's definitely room to use Phase Familiar without feeling the cost much (as Shroudb says, it's just 10 extra minutes of rest between encounters).

breithauptclan wrote:
But the biggest limitation on Phase Familiar is actually the Hex trait. Depending on how it is ruled, using your Hex cantrip will prevent you from saving your familiar when it is the enemy's turn even if you have your reaction available and the focus point to spend on it.

It's once per turn, so from RAW it doesn't prevent you from casting any other Hex on your turn. I also don't consider an improper interpretation of the rules to be the way to judge an ability.


SuperBidi wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
But the biggest limitation on Phase Familiar is actually the Hex trait. Depending on how it is ruled, using your Hex cantrip will prevent you from saving your familiar when it is the enemy's turn even if you have your reaction available and the focus point to spend on it.
It's once per turn, so from RAW it doesn't prevent you from casting any other Hex on your turn. I also don't consider an improper interpretation of the rules to be the way to judge an ability.

I mentioned that it depends on the ruling.

But if Act Together is allowed to put one-action activities into it so that the Summoner can use Boost Eidolon while the Eidolon uses the rest of the actions for the round, then since the wording is the same, that means that the Ready action can also have one action activities put into it such as Flurry of Blows or Gorilla Pound. That means that a Monk can use one of those actions on their turn, then ready an action to use one of them again with a trigger of 'the enemy continues to exist' in order to use it again immediately after their turn ends.

Unless the Flourish trait is ruled to be for the entire round instead of only while the character is taking actions on their turn. At which point, since again the wording is the same, the Hex trait would have the same limitation and you can't use Phase Familiar after casting a Hex on your turn.

So: nerf Summoner Act Together, nerf Witch Phase Familiar, or buff Monk.

Pick your poison.


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breithauptclan wrote:

I mentioned that it depends on the ruling.

But if Act Together is allowed to put one-action activities into it so that the Summoner can use Boost Eidolon while the Eidolon uses the rest of the actions for the round, then since the wording is the same, that means that the Ready action can also have one action activities put into it such as Flurry of Blows or Gorilla Pound. That means that a Monk can use one of those actions on their turn, then ready an action to use one of them again with a trigger of 'the enemy continues to exist' in order to use it again immediately after their turn ends.

Unless the Flourish trait is ruled to be for the entire round instead of only while the character is taking actions on their turn. At which point, since again the wording is the same, the Hex trait would have the same limitation and you can't use Phase Familiar after casting a Hex on your turn.

So: nerf Summoner Act Together, nerf Witch Phase Familiar, or buff Monk.

Pick your poison.

Ready: "Choose a single action or free action you can use"

So no double Flourish with Ready.


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SuperBidi wrote:

Ready: "Choose a single action or free action you can use"

So no double Flourish with Ready.

Ah. So you are adding the word 'now' to that.

"Choose a single action or free action you can use now".

The other literal interpretation of that is any single action or free action you are able to use at all. So anything that is given to all characters or that you have gotten from a feat or other ability.

Basically, something that you are able to use at the time that you are going to be using your Ready reaction.

And the Ready rules don't make the distinction between that.

-----

But in all, this is a somewhat silly debate. I would agree that it is rather harsh to rule that you can't use a reaction Hex when it is no longer your turn. Same with flourish actions, though those are a lot harder to be able to do as a reaction.

That doesn't mean that I haven't heard this ruling proposed.


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breithauptclan wrote:
Basically, something that you are able to use at the time that you are going to be using your Ready reaction.

The sentence is not using the future, so it does not mean something you can use at the time of the trigger but something you can use at the time you use the Ready action. There's only one interpretation to this sentence.

You're trying to create a doubt when there's not. Turn has a precise meaning and Phase Familiar can be used without interacting with the Hex you used/will use at your turn.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
breithauptclan wrote:
I would agree that it is rather harsh to rule that you can't use a reaction Hex when it is no longer your turn.

So if everyone agrees it's a bad house rule why are we even debating it?


Squiggit wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
I would agree that it is rather harsh to rule that you can't use a reaction Hex when it is no longer your turn.
So if everyone agrees it's a bad house rule why are we even debating it?

It isn't the worst ruling I have ever heard. Just because I find the argument silly doesn't mean that it isn't RAW. I have heard 'you can't use Strike on a Ghost without finesse', 'familiars will only follow directions for 6 seconds outside of combat', and 'your Witch Archetype familiar will not return the morning after it dies and you can just spend the rest of your current adventure without your archetype spellcasting feats' as not only being RAW, but RAI - the way that the game is intended to be played.

The discussion between SuperBidi and I came down to whether you consider the wording of Ready to be intended to mean "Choose a single action or free action you can use now" or "Choose a single action or free action you can use ever".

That isn't something that all GMs are going to make the distinction between. Some GMs don't make the distinction between a turn and a round. So if you happen to encounter one, it is good to have a written record of an example discussion.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
breithauptclan wrote:
Just because I find the argument silly doesn't mean that it isn't RAW.

But this isn't a case of strange RAW. It's a case of a strange house rule that directly contradicts and changes the RAW.

What if the GM changes 'turn' to 'round' ... what if the GM changes it to 'day' or 'week' instead? Same thing. Still kind of weird.

It's not an interpretive difference here.

Verdant Wheel

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rainzax wrote:

What would be cool is if Wilding Word was expanded to affect any single target creature, but was extra effective against animal / fungus / plant to the tune of "Creatures with this trait have an outcome one step more severe than their rolled saving throw"!

Would that be a step too far?

=)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

What I am hoping for is something more than just "treats as one degree of success worse" and more "animal, plant, or fungus ceases hostilities to you." Like a Wild Empathy as a hex. Would be nice if the patron gave you some room to be a pokemon trainer.


Haha, I feel personally called out by James Case with Wilding Word being thrown in there. If his intent was "I'm gonna end this random internet troll's day", well ya. He just Rank 9 Falling Star'd me.

On a serious note, Keen Senses makes a LOT more sense now given how they were playtesting with the Remaster Wilding Word and the newer hex rules in the background.

I've been playtesting a pseudo-Remaster Wild patron Witch (Premaster Hex, but Remaster Familiar ability) since I started this thread and the Wilding Word changes affirms to me what playstyles that the Wilding Steward patron is supposed to cover (as opposed to the Silence in Snow patron).


Captain Morgan wrote:
Like a Wild Empathy as a hex.

Wild Empathy demands Charisma-based skill training from a Wisdom class :-\ So maybe probably not that but something better?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Errenor wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Like a Wild Empathy as a hex.
Wild Empathy demands Charisma-based skill training from a Wisdom class :-\ So maybe probably not that but something better?

Yep, should have specified that. I'd settle for something which makes the creature suspectable to Command an Animal or a similar use of the nature skill. I'd rather invest wisdom on a intelligence based class (especially when they are automatically trained in the relevant skill) than charisma on a wisdom based class. We have finally gotten the Tame Animal feat which makes the Train Animal feat relevant, so I like the idea of building towards a beast tamer.

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