Exemplar Trait + Magical Knack


Rules Questions


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I'm having trouble finding something about this interaction; maybe you folks know.

If you take the magical exemplar trait (which lets you take more than one magical trait), can you take Magical Knack twice, but for two different classes?

Ex; could you take Magical Knack (Wizard) and Magical Knack (Cleric)?
Granted; this is expensive in terms of resources (multiple feats, 4+ traits, ect); but I couldn't find something either way that says you can or can't. Mostly because it assumes you can only have one per category and doesn't address the Exemplar interactions.

This is akin to weapon focus. Same feat, different non-stacking target.

What I have found pretty much all makes the assumption that you cannot have more than one trait in each category anyway, so in that case being able to take the same trait twice; abit differently; is a moot point.

But with the Exemplar trait, that changes without much in the way of saying what can and cannot be done with it.

Anyone actually know or can point me to something I missed?


as a general rule one can't take the same thing (feat\ class ability\trait etc) twice unless that thing specifically call out that it can be done (and many also add a phrase about how 'you can take it again but must pick a different thing it effect' etc).

i would be even more against this in the case of traits, as they are somewhat background-based abilities and doubling your background is kinda silly.
('oh yea? well i was double rised by fey!')


Even if you could, it would be expensive to get.

LVL 1, you have 2 open trait slots, you must take a campaign trait, then you can spend a feat to gain "Additional Traits", this gives you 3 open trait slots. you spend 2 to gain the Exemplar Trait, and then 1 to get magical Knack again.

I can think of a lot better uses for a feat usually.


It's weird, because traits didn't previously need the text saying you couldn't take a trait more than once, because you were instead limited by taking only one from each category. I'd say that rules as written, you could take the same trait twice, but that's just an oversight and the assumption is that you cannot take the same trait twice.

Assuming you did allow someone to take the same trait twice, most would be "fine", but some would be very problematic. The worst I can think of are the traits for reducing the spell level of metamagic. Free spamming quickened spells every round would be deeply problematic.


I have to agree that for the most part you cannot take the same thing twice unless it specifically states you can. But on the other hand I don’t seem to recall anywhere this is actually stated except where it is clear what it is applying to. RAW I don’t think that you are going to find anything; RAI there is a lot to support not allowing this. This is going to be something you need to ask your GM about.

Considering that magical knack does not increase the number of spells you can cast, and only applies to level variables on your spells, I don’t think it would be that bad if a GM allowed this.


Melkiador wrote:
It's weird, because traits didn't previously need the text saying you couldn't take a trait more than once, because you were instead limited by taking only one from each category. I'd say that rules as written[...]

Feats don't have such language, either, so if it works for traits, this changes more than just the one character in a million that uses examplar traits.

For that matter, the Wizard's Arcane School ability doesn't say you can't select the same opposition school twice...


Quote:
A wizard that chooses to specialize in one school of magic must select two other schools as his opposition schools, representing knowledge sacrificed in one area of arcane lore to gain mastery in another. A wizard who prepares spells from his opposition schools must use two spell slots of that level to prepare the spell.

It would take some serious misrepresentation of the English language in order to argue that the wizard could select the same school twice. 'Schools', plural. Meaning more than one. I get that it doesn't explicitly say "You cannot take the same school twice" but it doesn't need to.


DeathlessOne wrote:
It would take some serious misrepresentation of the English language in order to argue that the wizard could select the same school twice. 'Schools', plural. Meaning more than one. I get that it doesn't explicitly say "You cannot take the same school twice" but it doesn't need to.

How is that different from "In most cases, a new PC should gain two traits"? 'Traits', plural. Meaning more than one.

Traits are "“story seeds” for your background", selecting Magical Knack twice leaves you with just one story seed. How is this not the exact same situation?


You actually can gain a feat more than once, and this is fairly common from multiclassing and bonus feats. The limitation is in how they interact.

Quote:
If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.


rather than bumble about
Restrictions on Trait Selection
"There are a few rules governing trait selection. To begin with, your GM controls how many bonus traits a PC begins with; the default assumption is two traits. When selecting traits, you may not select more than one from the same list of traits (the four basic traits each count as a separate list for this purpose). Certain types of traits may have additional requirements..." from APG 2010-07.
this rule was early on and the GM can vary the process but it would seem that the selection is limited to one per basic trait type (Combat, Faith, Magic, Social) and restrictions vary with (Campaign, Race, Regional{one}, Religion{one}).
Magical Knack Basic(Magic) Trait
Additional Traits feat

Exemplar traits PPC:Chron of Legends 2019-05.
"This section introduces a new variety of traits known as exemplar traits. A character can have only one exemplar trait, and selecting an exemplar trait takes the place of two regular traits. Each exemplar trait is tied to a trait category, such as combat traits or regional traits; a character with an exemplar trait is no longer restricted to a single trait of that category and can select any number of such traits when gaining further traits. In addition, a character with an exemplar trait can select the Additional Traits feat any number of times and use the feat to gain an exemplar trait of a valid trait category for which she qualifies." see Curator of Mystic Secrets Exemplar trait for the specifics.
so there it is.
Choosing Exemplar trait (replacing 2 traits) allows you to choose N number of traits from one Basic type and gain a little bonus. Rather nice AND PFS approved. Erring on the side of caution I'd get Home GM approval as this is a splat book (they notoriously have issues).


Derklord wrote:
Traits are "“story seeds” for your background", selecting Magical Knack twice leaves you with just one story seed. How is this not the exact same situation?

Because you cannot normally select a trait twice (nor the same category twice) without an alteration of the game rules. Calling the traits something else only helps to confuse the situation more. When the rules allow for you to take something twice, it provides details on how that works. If the rules don't, I'd be fairly confident in saying that you aren't supposed to take it twice.

Azothath wrote:
this rule was early on and the GM can vary the process but it would seem that the selection is limited to one per basic trait type (Combat, Faith, Magic, Social) but the restriction isn't levied on (Campaign, Race, Regional, Religion)

It should be applicable to any new category of traits as well. Just because new categories are added later should not exempt the new categories from the previous rules unless there is specific language to do so.

I'm not too fussed about what a GM decides to do on the matter. Traits are still a (widely used) variant rule as far as the core system goes, since PFS makes use of them. Just be prepared for any GM to see this particular issue and raise an eyebrow before simply saying 'No'.


I'd comment but the track record speaks for itself.

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