A player is at the top of a building that is 20 feet tall. This player wants to jump off the building and fall to the ground.
The player has a movement of 15, but claims falling doesn't count as movement.
Seems to me this has counted as movement in the past, but I'm having a hard time finding hard rules for this.
What is to prevent a PC from literally moving 500 feet for free while falling?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
IF the player is at the top of the building they'd have to spend some sort of movement to move off the edge, but falling is just falling. There's no reason the actual act of falling would cost you any movement.
IF the player is at the top of the building they'd have to spend some sort of movement to move off the edge, but falling is just falling. There's no reason the actual act of falling would cost you any movement.
So a dragon who is flying can basically choose to move 500 feet down for free since it's "falling."
That makes no sense
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
There is a difference between Fly downwards and Falling.
Flying down, you can move at double your fly speed. And it is controlled. You can move less than double your fly speed if you want. And you won't take damage if you land at the end of that movement.
Falling you will move 500 feet or until you hit the ground. You can't choose to move less than that. You will also take falling damage and be prone at the end unless you fall a very short distance or have some other means of avoiding that outcome.
So yes, a dragon can choose to fall out of the air and move up to 500 feet downwards for free. They could even attempt to Arrest a Fall in order to avoid the damage.
An Air Mephit with a fly speed of 40 feet that is 400 feet in the air couldn't choose to fall only 350 feet for free though. They would have to move the entire 500 feet and end up on the ground at the end. They could instead choose to spend one action flying 80 feet downwards. And could spend three actions flying 240 feet downwards.
There is a difference, but a flying creature can willfully stop flying, and fall that distance, and arrest his stop if he wants.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
There is a difference, but a flying creature can willfully stop flying, and fall that distance, and arrest his stop if he wants.
Yes.
So... what's the concern?
*rereads original post*
A player is at the top of a building that is 20 feet tall. This player wants to jump off the building and fall to the ground.
The player has a movement of 15, but claims falling doesn't count as movement.
It is true that falling is not a move action and doesn't use your movement speed. It is covered under the rules for Forced Movement.
However, jumping off of the building is a move action.
Releasing grip on the edge of the building would be a free action, but getting yourself into that position in the first place would require at least a move action.
And in either case, falling from the 20 foot tall building would cause fall damage and landing prone. There may be tactical reasons to accept that and do the maneuver anyway. And it is a perfectly valid tactic to use.
IF the player is at the top of the building they'd have to spend some sort of movement to move off the edge, but falling is just falling. There's no reason the actual act of falling would cost you any movement.So a dragon who is flying can basically choose to move 500 feet down for free since it's "falling."
That makes no sense
Why does that not make sense? That's just how falling works. There is no ground under you, so you fall. You're being pulled down by gravity (or the falling rules technically)... your movement speed has nothing to do with it?
I'm having trouble even envisioning what your version of falling would look like. Would a creature with a slower land speed fall more slowly?
|
IF the player is at the top of the building they'd have to spend some sort of movement to move off the edge, but falling is just falling. There's no reason the actual act of falling would cost you any movement.So a dragon who is flying can basically choose to move 500 feet down for free since it's "falling."
That makes no sense
Why does that not make sense? That's just how falling works. There is no ground under you, so you fall. You're being pulled down by gravity (or the falling rules technically)... your movement speed has nothing to do with it?
I'm having trouble even envisioning what your version of falling would look like. Would a creature with a slower land speed fall more slowly?
Think it comes down to being controlled or not. Yes, physics makes a thing fall at a given rate, but poorer flyers (slow fly speed) would be able to traverse less distance and maintain control. Faster flyers could actually force their fall rate to be faster than gravity and still stabilize.
Think I’d treat it as a fall if you fell further than allowed, but hey, it’s your game.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
A player is at the top of a building that is 20 feet tall. This player wants to jump off the building and fall to the ground.
The player has a movement of 15, but claims falling doesn't count as movement.
Seems to me this has counted as movement in the past, but I'm having a hard time finding hard rules for this.
What is to prevent a PC from literally moving 500 feet for free while falling?
First you need to spend an action to move at least a little bit to actually jump or step off the building.
Then you fall up to 500 feet for "free". If you take any damage from that (and it doesn't kill you) you're prone. Now you need to stand up (spend an action) and then you can move again. In total you've spent 3 actions and possibly taken 250 damage.
Maybe you have Cat Fall or some other way to reduce how much the falling distance counts as, and if you negate all the damage then you don't go prone. Then you could potentially walk off the edge, land, and keep walking all in one action. But to do that at a 500ft distance, you need to be Legendary in Acrobatics.
---
The point being, it's not free. Either you spend a lot of actions and take a lot of damage, or you spent a lot of your skill upgrade choices on it.
(And it worked mostly the same in first edition, if you could somehow avoid taking the falling damage you wouldn't go prone either.)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While largely irrelevant for a 20' drop, a GM probably needs to take 'how long it takes to fall' into consideration for long drops: Source
Core Rulebook pg. 463 4.0
...
While falling 500' is 'free' in the sense that it doesn't necessarily take any actions, you will spend the entire round falling that distance...
Note that a flying creature doesn't fall until they end their turn having not spent an action flying. One cannot choose to have gravity operate faster than normal (as per rules "normal" that is).
So yeah, there are some tricks one can pull, i.e. w/ Catfall, but those are part of the heroic fantasy flavor IMO. I guess one stinker move is a dragon using all its actions to breath & attack then intentionally falling to move away at the end of their turn (and Arresting/casting Feather Fall), but much of that's because most can return soon after.
As for a really slow person making use of falling, that's a pretty limited niche, and it takes them that much longer to gain elevation in order to fall so they better make certain where they want to go.
My main issue is with the fact that "falling" movement is done for free, when, in the past, (I've been playing DnD and PF for 30 years) it's been ruled that creatures should not get "free" movement.
For instance, a flying creature can't fly 100 feet high out of harm's way, then take a Free Action to simply fall (heck, or even a single action) 100 feet for no movement cost at all. That makes no balance sense.
@shroudb, a flyer can fall and doesn't have to "move" downwards, according to some interpretations!
It's similar to movement while riding a mount. A mounted character doesn't get their 3 actions to move their character's speed, then have their mount also take their 3 actions to also take 3 strides. The principle is the same.
Perhaps the "act" of falling should simply be 1 action with the move trait?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
For instance, a flying creature can't fly 100 feet high out of harm's way, then take a Free Action to simply fall (heck, or even a single action) 100 feet for no movement cost at all. That makes no balance sense.
Well, first that is pedantically correct that this would be invalid. A creature that uses an action to fly 100 feet into the air would not fall automatically at the end of their turn since they used a fly action during their turn. And there is no free action Fall.
They would fall automatically at the end of their next turn if they don't continue flying.
But regardless, falling the 100 feet isn't "for free" anyway. They have to spend their reaction on Arrest a Fall in order to attempt to avoid the 50 damage that they would be taking. Either that or they have to spend an action on Fly to fly themselves carefully back down the 100 feet to ground level.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My main issue is with the fact that "falling" movement is done for free, when, in the past, (I've been playing DnD and PF for 30 years) it's been ruled that creatures should not get "free" movement.
D&D has never made you spend actions to fall or limited falling based on your movement speed, so I don't see why playing D&D for 30 years has anything to do with it.
Perhaps the "act" of falling should simply be 1 action with the move trait?
So if I have no available actions should I just be... suspended in the air ? Can I hover indefinitely by spending my actions on something else?
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My main issue is with the fact that "falling" movement is done for free, when, in the past, (I've been playing DnD and PF for 30 years) it's been ruled that creatures should not get "free" movement.
So by this logic, if my PC has a 25 foot land speed, and I use my final action on my turn to Stride 25 feet, which puts me on an undetected pit trap, I won't fall in because that would be "free" movement?
Do I just hover like Wile E. Coyote until my next turn?
Does it take a reaction to hold up a sign that reads "HELP!"?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A player is at the top of a building that is 20 feet tall. This player wants to jump off the building and fall to the ground.
The player has a movement of 15, but claims falling doesn't count as movement.
Seems to me this has counted as movement in the past, but I'm having a hard time finding hard rules for this.
What is to prevent a PC from literally moving 500 feet for free while falling?
Falling doesn't count as movement since it's essentially instantaneous (that is, you start falling once an action is completed), but leaping off of the building still takes an action, and is probably the only horizontal movement they'll get before falling unless they have some glide ability.
They're also still risking taking fall damage and going prone after they land, so it's not like it's "free movement." It's just gravity comes in and takes its toll. Of course, if they invested in Cat Fall and Acrobatics, I don't see why they should be punished for what they invested in.
And while falling goes at a rate of 150 for 1st round, 500 feet for consecutive rounds, the odds of needing to track that amount of falling distance is absurd.
And while falling goes at a rate of 150 for 1st round, 500 feet for consecutive rounds, the odds of needing to track that amount of falling distance is absurd.
It is useful for calculating if you die from massive damage or not.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Also, like I mentioned earlier, falling is not free movement - it is classified as forced movement. So just like it doesn't take an action from you when you get shoved and the distance moved is not limited by your speed, it doesn't take an action to fall and your speed doesn't change how far you fall.
And while falling goes at a rate of 150 for 1st round, 500 feet for consecutive rounds, the odds of needing to track that amount of falling distance is absurd.It is useful for calculating if you die from massive damage or not.
*Laughs in Legendary Cat Fall*
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
i mean... by level 15 you should be ashamed if you died from falling damage regardless of your skill choices.
snapleaf is like 9gp
As someone who never uses talismans, I'd rather go with the skill choices.
As someone who never uses talismans, I'd rather go with the skill choices.i mean... by level 15 you should be ashamed if you died from falling damage regardless of your skill choices.
snapleaf is like 9gp
it's not like falling to your death happens every session.
so you can just put that 9gp consumable in there "just in case" at some point in your career and you have a 1-off of negating that unlikely outcome.
i think it's a pretty good use of an otherwise unremarkable consumable type.
Spellhearts say hi.
For instance, a flying creature can't fly 100 feet high out of harm's way, then take a Free Action to simply fall (heck, or even a single action) 100 feet for no movement cost at all. That makes no balance sense.Well, first that is pedantically correct that this would be invalid. A creature that uses an action to fly 100 feet into the air would not fall automatically at the end of their turn since they used a fly action during their turn. And there is no free action Fall.
They would fall automatically at the end of their next turn if they don't continue flying.
But regardless, falling the 100 feet isn't "for free" anyway. They have to spend their reaction on Arrest a Fall in order to attempt to avoid the 50 damage that they would be taking. Either that or they have to spend an action on Fly to fly themselves carefully back down the 100 feet to ground level.
Ok, to get away from the bs, let's say:
A dragon is 500 feet in the air. On its turn, it does not take a fly action. It would then fall. As an action, it could arrest its fall after falling far enough to get within striking range. Moving over 400 feet for free.
My main issue is with the fact that "falling" movement is done for free, when, in the past, (I've been playing DnD and PF for 30 years) it's been ruled that creatures should not get "free" movement.D&D has never made you spend actions to fall or limited falling based on your movement speed, so I don't see why playing D&D for 30 years has anything to do with it.
Perhaps the "act" of falling should simply be 1 action with the move trait?So if I have no available actions should I just be... suspended in the air ? Can I hover indefinitely by spending my actions on something else?
You can hover as an action.
All I'm saying is that a dragon, or any other creature, can move, by falling, for free. Yay for dragons.
My main issue is with the fact that "falling" movement is done for free, when, in the past, (I've been playing DnD and PF for 30 years) it's been ruled that creatures should not get "free" movement.D&D has never made you spend actions to fall or limited falling based on your movement speed, so I don't see why playing D&D for 30 years has anything to do with it.
Perhaps the "act" of falling should simply be 1 action with the move trait?So if I have no available actions should I just be... suspended in the air ? Can I hover indefinitely by spending my actions on something else?
Still haven't answered the question as to why you can't move your full movement plus the mount's full movement.
@shroudb, a flyer can fall and doesn't have to "move" downwards, according to some interpretations!
the Fly action specifically says that you fall at the end of a turn you didn't use it.
so if you were using that action on the previous round (to get to the 100ft) the rules say that you have to wait for the end of your next turn to fall.
if the Flier decides to do that, then he has to spend his reaction to Arrest a fall, and still has to fall the full distance (he can't control how far he falls)
The flyer is "controlling" the distance fell by arresting their fall at the moment they choose.
My main issue is with the fact that "falling" movement is done for free, when, in the past, (I've been playing DnD and PF for 30 years) it's been ruled that creatures should not get "free" movement.So by this logic, if my PC has a 25 foot land speed, and I use my final action on my turn to Stride 25 feet, which puts me on an undetected pit trap, I won't fall in because that would be "free" movement?
Do I just hover like Wile E. Coyote until my next turn?
Does it take a reaction to hold up a sign that reads "HELP!"?
That's the key difference I'm talking about here...falling movement out of CHOICE v. falling movement out non-choice.
I'm fine with allowing my dragons to movement 500 feet for free and then making an easily-succeeded Acrobatics roll as a reaction, a fly action to fly back up to within reach, then, make a reach attack twice or a breath weapon!
You have some misunderstandings about the rules here.
The dragon cannot just start falling by choice mid-turn. If it doesn't Fly and falls closer to the PCs at the end of its turn, that doesn't confer any advantage to it – because its turn is over. It also cannot control the distance, since Arrest a Fall merely slows the fall, but does not actually stop it midair. You always fall until you hit the ground, whether it's slowly or at terminal velocity.I suppose as a Flying creature you could try to Trip yourself by RAW in order to fall before your turn ends, but it surely is of questionable usefulness.
I made an edit above but it didn't go through because someone was replying, fyi.
Example:
Dragon's turn. Do not fly. Fall 500 feet. Reaction to arrest fall. This puts the dragon on the ground next to its enemy. RAW does not state the creature's turn ends after falling. So either its turn ends after arresting the fall or it then gets actions, which it can simply use to fly back up out of reach of enemy but within its own reach.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Dragon's turn. Do not fly. Fall 500 feet. Reaction to arrest fall. This puts the dragon on the ground next to its enemy. RAW does not state the creature's turn ends after falling.
Effectively it does, actually. If a creature is safely in the air at the start of its turn, then it only falls at the end of its turn when it doesn't use a Fly action of some sort.
So yes. By RAW if you fall and Arrest a Fall, then your turn is over. Not because Arrest a Fall ends your turn, but because falling happens after your turn is already over.
Some other misunderstandings from your previous post:
No, it can only Arrest a Fall when it hits the ground. Technically it could arrest a fall when it wouldn't hit the ground, but Arrest a Fall doesn't change the distance that it falls, so it would be spending its reaction for absolutely no effect. If it is going to fall 500 feet, then Arrest a Fall just means that it falls 500 feet without taking damage. It still falls the full 500 feet.
A creature doesn't ever get to choose when it falls. Fall is not an action of any type - not a free action, not a reaction, not even a standard action. A creature will either fall as part of the action that they are taking, like when they jump off of a building, or they will fall at the end of their turn when they don't continue flying.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's similar to movement while riding a mount. A mounted character doesn't get their 3 actions to move their character's speed, then have their mount also take their 3 actions to also take 3 strides. The principle is the same.
Didn't realize that this was a question.
But it seems like you already know the answer to it. While mounted, the mount can move both itself and its rider at the same time. But the action rules don't allow for free movement.
If using Command an Animal for a purchased mount, then the rider can spend one action to give the mount one action.
If using a minion mount like an Animal Companion, then the rider can spend one action to give the mount two actions - but can only do that once per round. Also, higher level Animal Companions can take one action on their own if they are not commanded during that round. In either case, this means that the character with a minion mount can have 4 actions during their turn. But that is fairly typical for having a minion.
I would also note that dismounting uses the Mount action. So it is not possible to spend all four of those actions on Stride. The mount can stride twice and leave the rider with two actions for the round, but the rider cannot then Stride twice themselves - they have to use Mount to dismount first and will only be able to Stride once during that round.
You can also ride a completely independent creature as a mount. In this case we use the Riding Sentient Creatures rules and both the mount and the rider lose one action at the start of their turn. Which again leaves 4 actions between them to spend, same as the minion mount. And again with dismount costing an action, it is not possible for both creatures to use all of their actions on Stride to get 4 Stride actions in one turn.
And there is certainly no way to get 6 Stride actions in one turn by using a mount.
My initial concern still stands:
500 feet of movement for zero actions is just silly- and yes, I mean FREE. A flyer can simply choose NOT to fly. It then begins falling and falls 500 feet FOR FREE. It doesn't matter what happens to it at the end of that fall, the point is the 500 feet is free movement.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Several of us have shown you the cost of that 500 feet of falling movement repeatedly. That you still refuse to listen to us simply means that we should stop talking about it.
I also don't see a lot of utility in moving 500 feet straight down. It's not a very useful direction.
Because the cost is zero to move 500 ft.
The fact that everyone refuses to see that means something.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Because the cost is zero to move 500 ft.
Action cost - spending one of your three actions for the turn - is not the only cost that we are looking at.
You seem to be stuck in this mindset that if it doesn't cost an action, then it has no cost. That is incorrect. There are other types of costs.
A creature doesn't ever get to choose when it falls. Fall is not an action of any type - not a free action, not a reaction, not even a standard action. A creature will either fall as part of the action that they are taking, like when they jump off of a building, or they will fall at the end of their turn when they don't continue flying.I will muddy the water a bit :-D
Drop Prone Prone
And you know the catch: "If you would be knocked prone while you're Climbing or Flying, you fall (see Falling for the rules on falling)."
Even with that, you are not the one choosing when you fall.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I also don't see a lot of utility in moving 500 feet straight down. It's not a very useful direction.Because the cost is zero to move 500 ft.
The fact that everyone refuses to see that means something.
Everyone can see it. It just doesn't really matter. You're falling. That's how falling works. That's how falling has always worked.
Yes, there might be a few scenarios where falling is beneficial, but... so what?
Not to mention the proposed alternative doesn't really make much sense and is weird to both conceptualize and adjudicate.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why do you think the dragon would actually want to do this, anyway? They already have like 150 foot speeds and can move twice that in a dive. Because I see two scenarios:
1. The dragon wants to get away from someone it is fighting midair, but that someone can just do the same thing to follow so it is pointless.
2. The dragon wants to close with someone on the ground, in which case it just ended its turn where it can be reached and used up not only all of its actions but its reaction as well. (Dragons pretty much all have some version of Reactive Strike, so this is a huge loss.)
Either way it doesn't actually gain an advantage from this 500 foot "free" movement. The second case is actively detrimental to its survival.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also, to be clear. The scenario that I have seen hinted at earlier:
A dragon is flying 400 feet in the air at the start of its turn. It decides to fall 390 feet with no action cost. It then uses Arrest a Fall 10 feet above the ground. It bathes the party in a breath weapon for two actions, then flies 75 feet back into the air.
That doesn't work. It breaks so many rules of flying and falling that it is hard to count them all.
This is hilarious. Can we argue about how many days are in a week next?