Oil of Tears to Wine?


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

As title.I saw a character carrying this which has 15CL.
I think it's ridiculous but I want to know if there is any rules about Magic Oil's influence on liquid.

Tears to Wine
Target 1 cu. ft./2 levels of liquid (see text)

Spoiler:
Source Arcane Anthology pg. 22
School transmutation; Level alchemist 1, arcanist 2, bard 1, cleric 2, druid 1, hunter 1, investigator 1, medium 1, occultist 1, oracle 2, shaman 1, skald 1, sorcerer 2, warpriest 2, witch 2, wizard 2
Casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a single grape)
Effect
Range 10 ft.
Target 1 cu. ft./2 levels of liquid (see text)
Duration 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw Will negates (object); Spell Resistance yes (object)
Description
Legend claims runelords used this spell to literally benefit from drinking the tears of their captured foes. This spell turns nonmagic liquids—including spoiled, rotten, diseased, poisonous, or otherwise contaminated drinks, tears, seawater, and similar fluids—into mead or wine of average quality. This spell does not prevent subsequent natural decay or spoilage. Unholy water and similar liquids of significance are spoiled by tears to wine, but the spell has no effect on creatures of any type or on magic potions.

Creatures that drink the mead or wine created by this spell become sharp-witted and clear-minded, gaining a +2 enhancement bonus on all Intelligence- and Wisdom-based skill checks. This increases to a +5 bonus at caster level 9th, and to +10 (the maximum) at caster level 15th.


I'm not sure what the question is?

Magic oils would not be affected by this as they are effectively magic potions.


Can you make an oil of Tears to Wine? If you read the rulebook like a lawyer, probably not. Reasonably, why not?


Potions and oils come in 1 oz. doses. This is a small vial of liquid.

The spell "Tears to Wine", affects (1 cubic foot/2) of liquid per level, which is nearly a factor of 500 times bigger than an 1 oz. So a 15th caster level tears to wine spell is going to affect a lot of liquid.

The OP says that they saw a character is running around with a potion of this.

Quote:
I think it's ridiculous but I want to know if there is any rules about Magic Oil's influence on liquid.

Umm... Go for it? Check with your GM first. This spell can affect a lot of creatures at once so its going to be a big deal. Though, I'm not sure what kind skills you plan to use with it. There would be enough liquid for a metaphorical peasant army, but many of the skills affected either require ranks to attempt (like know skills or spellcraft) or take longer to complete than a few hours (such as craft skills).

Liberty's Edge

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Tears to Wine is one of those spells with a questionable description, and that makes replying to your question more complicated.

First: it is possible to make a potion/oil of Tears to Wine?

CRB - Potions wrote:
A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Potions vary incredibly in appearance. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed.

Oil of Tears to Wine doesn't respect those two limits. It is not imbibed, nor is it applied externally. To work it has to be mixed with a liquid.

As I see it, you can make a single-use wondrous item in liquid form that has the same effect but it isn't a potion/oil.

Second: what does Tears to Wine?
Based on how I read its description, it turns a liquid into wine as an instantaneous effect, then the wine, when imbibed, gives "a +2 enhancement bonus on all Intelligence- and Wisdom-based skill checks. This increases to a +5 bonus at caster level 9th, and to +10 (the maximum) at caster level 15th." This effect lasts 10 minutes/level.

Third: wine created by Tears to Wine maintains the enhancement effect forever until imbibed or only for 10 minutes/level?
That isn't answered in a clear way by the spell description, but, as the duration of the effect is in the initial description of the spell, I would rule that the wine enhancement effect lasts only for 10 minutes/level from the time when the spell was cast (or from the time when the "oil" was mixed to a liquid).

Fourth; how much Wine do you need to drink to benefit from the effect?
No idea, but I would think something like a small beer bottle (33 cl.).
1/2 cubic foot is a bit more than 13 liters, so enough stuff for 40 persons at CL 1.


if it would have worked then it would have been needed to pour it into the liquid to be transformed. make that liquid into a magical liquid for 150 minutes that for that same duration (As it is all a part of the same spell) gives said bonus to whoever drink it. it doesn't say how much so i guess the minimum of how much it takes for a normal drinking potion option work (what ever action it takes to drink a potion and consume that same amount from the total liquid)

the problem is that this spell can not be made into an oil or potion since all spells used for oil\potion must follow the same rule:
"A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures or objects."

this spell target neither creatures nor objects.
7.5 cubic feet of liquid is not an object. it's might be what you put into one or drown in. objects need to be something countable, one grain of salt is an object. 1 lb of salt is a collection of tiny-tiny objects but can not be counted as one. it's the whole difference between "how much | how many ".

Silver Crusade

Thanks guys,your opinions help a lot.
Now I think if I were DM I would absolutely say no to this strange use of Tear to Wine.


Brew Potion Magic item creation feat
in general it is well known that potions that affect objects are usually described as oils. Equivalent descriptive terms for potions are; oil, philter, vial of, elixir, etc. The descriptive terms cross item categories as they are packaging and physical descriptions rather than mutually exclusive definitive game terms.

Tears to Wine:T1-2

Firstly, when we speak of RAW items they are usually crafted/made at minimal caster level to maintain consistent pricing for a given name (so when you say I bought a Cure Light potion, we all know it is a CLW1@1 spell in a potion for $50), there are exceptions.
Secondly, if you follow the rules as laid out in RAW, then it is usually considered legal. That doesn't make it practical or reasonable and of course with custom magic items the GM needs to review pricing as it can get complicated and unbalanced (thus the "usually" in the previous statement).

so, having an Oil of Tears to Wine 1@15 seems legal and valid as it targets non-magical liquid (an object) in a container. All wine has a shelf life but practical matters like this rely on your GM.
IMO it is a silly item and might provide potable liquid in case of starvation. Most sensible GMs will limit magical effects to the duration {10min*CL starting when the wine is created for +10 enhc to Int & Wis based Skill Checks for 150min - which is awesome but review the stacking rules, it needs a longer duration to affect crafting rolls}.

Dark Archive

Azothath wrote:
{10min*CL starting when the wine is created for +10 enhc to Int & Wis based Skill Checks for 150min - which is awesome but review the stacking rules, it needs a longer duration to affect crafting rolls}.

Extend it, then fast craft?


Crafting? I'm more interested in perception and knowledge checks. All monsters will be found and identified.


It could be an elixer instead. That seems to be the catch all for potions that somehow don't work like potions.


Like OmniMage mentioned, this would most likely be considered an Elixir or Unguent or some name other than Potion or Oil and would likely use Craft Wondrous Items rather than Brew Potion. You pour it into a liquid and it transforms an amount (based on CL) into Wine. It's kind of up to your GM, however.

There is supposedly a potion/oil of purify food and drink, so it's not exactly clear. The rules do say you must imbibe a potion or be able to smear an oil, so a GM could also rule that an oil of purify food and drink only works on food or an object you can smear or rub it on and that it wouldn't work on liquids, purely because of the application rules. That's why elixir or unguent would circumvent that issue.

Then you need to decide what exactly the duration means. Does it mean that if you drink the wine within that time limit, then you receive the enhancement bonus (for some other determinable amount of time), or is the bonus permanently inlaid into the wine and drinking it at any time afterwards (even if the wine spoils or something) still gives the bonus, which will last the amount of time equal to the duration?


Java Man wrote:
Crafting? I'm more interested in perception and knowledge checks. All monsters will be found and identified.

Perception really? most of my players already have +20 or more to perception - nothing gets by them, EVER.


Need more perception, gotta spit invisible ambushers from over 100' away.

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