Can animals be cohorts?


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm playing in a PF1 campaign and we just reached level 7. My intention from the start was to have my halfling take Leadership and recruit his riding dog as a cohort. By the Monster Cohort rules it would probably have an effective level of 1 or 2 for the purposes of recruitment. Once recruited it would start gaining exp with the party and begin gaining levels in fighter, eventually reaching the cohort level limit of 2 less than their Leader.

I'd thought I'd been clear with my plan, but now that we're actually there I'm being told that's not allowed. That in order for an animal to be a cohort or to gain levels it would need to be Awakened first and I don't see any reason for that to be necessary. Here are some of the reasons I've been given:

1. Animals can't have Int more than 2, so they can't have a class. I've never seen, nor can I find, any rule that requires a creature to have a Int of 3 or higher to accumulate exp and/or earn class levels. And the monster advancement rules in the Bestiary clearly contradict this idea since it has rules for giving monsters classes as well as other ways of advancing them.

2. Animals can't have Int more than 2, so they can't be recruited as a cohort. There's nothing in the Leadership rules that require a cohort to have an Int of 3 or higher. Yes, the Monster Cohort rules give examples, and none of the examples are animals or have an int less than 5, but it doesn't say that creatures need an Int of 3 or higher to be a cohort so it should be possible.

3. Animals aren't Monsters, so the Monster Cohort rules in the Bestiary don't apply. This is the most annoying argument imo because the Table of Contents in the Bestiary clearly classify animals as monsters.

If anyone can shed some light on where these 'rules' are so I can look them up I'd greatly appreciate it. I've already given up on trying to discuss it with my DM, he made his ruling and I don't want to argue with him about it. But I'm really trying to understand where these ideas are coming from because I can't find anything about it in the sources I have on hand.

I only see one other thread on these forums about the topic (from 2015) and it doesn't have any answers for me.

I don't want to have the dog Awakened, it's not something that's available till we reach level 9, and it's not something that the character would do to his dog. I know that I could take feats for, or cross class into something that has, an animal companion or special mount and just treat the dog as a class feature. That's also not something I want to do for various reasons, but mostly because it feels like it cheapens the life of the animal since it makes them more easily replaceable.


This is smack in the middle of "GM decision" territory.

Silver Crusade

Java Man wrote:
This is smack in the middle of "GM decision" territory.

And I'm fine with that. But I'm being told it's actually a rule somewhere and it's not 'GM decision' and that's why I'm confused.


Let me rephrase: "an animal cohort would be a GM invented house rule."


if you look at the feat Monstrous Companion you can see that:

1. it count as the leadership feat for prerequisites and one can not have both it and the leadership feat

and
2. at least one of the creatures listed (the sea cat) has an int of 2 which is as high as some of the animals can get.

so i'm for one am fine with getting an animal as cohort, but id have it work more like the Monstrous Companion with upgrading the hd as per the monster rules..

Silver Crusade

Java Man wrote:
Let me rephrase: "an animal cohort would be a GM invented house rule."

Why would this be a house rule? What rule in what book says it's not possible and therefore has to be house ruled in?

If the GM doesn't want to allow it that's up to the GM, I won't argue with a ruling. But if it's not the GM deciding he doesn't like something and there's actually a rule somewhere that says it's not possible I really want to know where it is.

Silver Crusade

zza ni wrote:

if you look at the feat Monstrous Companion you can see that:

1. it count as the leadership feat for prerequisites and one can not have both it and the leadership feat

and
2. at least one of the creatures listed (the sea cat) has an int of 2 which is as high as some of the animals can get.

so i'm for one am fine with getting an animal as cohort, but id have it work more like the Monstrous Companion with upgrading the hd as per the monster rules..

Thank you for pointing out the Sea Cat has only 2 Int. I guess I need to find a copy of Bestiary 4 now...


Lorebot wrote:
Java Man wrote:
Let me rephrase: "an animal cohort would be a GM invented house rule."

Why would this be a house rule? What rule in what book says it's not possible and therefore has to be house ruled in?

If the GM doesn't want to allow it that's up to the GM, I won't argue with a ruling. But if it's not the GM deciding he doesn't like something and there's actually a rule somewhere that says it's not possible I really want to know where it is.

A riding dog is not a race or class for standard characters, as a cohort is written to be. There are assorted monster options for cohorts in a few places, but a riding dog is not one of them. So it would be a GM call to allow it and how to do so.

(Personally I dig your intention and would work something out for you at my table, but the RAW is not supporting you.)

Silver Crusade

Java Man wrote:
Lorebot wrote:
Java Man wrote:
Let me rephrase: "an animal cohort would be a GM invented house rule."

Why would this be a house rule? What rule in what book says it's not possible and therefore has to be house ruled in?

If the GM doesn't want to allow it that's up to the GM, I won't argue with a ruling. But if it's not the GM deciding he doesn't like something and there's actually a rule somewhere that says it's not possible I really want to know where it is.

A riding dog is not a race or class for standard characters, as a cohort is written to be. There are assorted monster options for cohorts in a few places, but a riding dog is not one of them. So it would be a GM call to allow it and how to do so.

(Personally I dig your intention and would work something out for you at my table, but the RAW is not supporting you.)

The Monster Cohort rules in the back of the Bestiaries all have tables of monsters and what level they should be treated as for being recruited as cohorts, but they all also say 'You can use the monsters on the following table as guidelines when determining effective cohort levels for monsters not on this list' which means the lists are not exhaustive and you can use monsters that don't appear on the lists. The GM just needs to decide what the effective level of the monster is, with Worgs being 5 and Blink Dogs being 4, it's not unreasonable to consider a Riding Dog or even a Heavy Horse as a 2. But it's definitely within the RAW that any monster can be a cohort.


The monster cohort section of the bestiary starts with:
Monster Cohorts
The Leadership feat allows a character to gain a loyal cohort. With the GM's approval, this cohort can be a similarly aligned monster rather than a humanoid....

So whether you want to call it a house rule or GM call it will be up to your GM as to how, or if, this works.


There is nothing I am aware of that prohibits a 2 int creature from taking classes (though there is a rule about what feats animal companions with int 2 or less are able to take). If they can only select from a narrow selection of feats, that suggests other things that require at least some level of intelligence to master should also be disallowed - and personally I would think class levels fall into that category. But there is not an explicit rule about it, so your GM is wrong about that.

Likewise animals can't have an int above 2 is also not correct. There are some contradictory rules regarding this. Of those I personally think the animal companion rules that suggest and allow for a animal to gain int 3+ on level ups is certainly the intent as there is a whole set of rules around this. But otherwise, outside of GM purview, animals found in the wild should not have int > 2.

I think the animals aren't monster argument is specious. Monsters is broad in its meaning under the rules as you've noted. Is a dragon a monster or just an awakened lizard? Is a bulette a monster or just a cross breed of animals?

However, all of that said

Lorebot wrote:


Why would this be a house rule? What rule in what book says it's not possible and therefore has to be house ruled in?

There are a billion things that the rules don't explicitly forbid. But that isn't an argument that those billion thing are allowed by the rules. You generally need a rule to allow something to happen for it to be an option.

This

Lorebot wrote:


The Monster Cohort rules in the back of the Bestiaries all have tables of monsters and what level they should be treated as for being recruited as cohorts, but they all also say 'You can use the monsters on the following table as guidelines when determining effective cohort levels for monsters not on this list' which means the lists are not exhaustive and you can use monsters that don't appear on the lists.

This points to the rules potentially allowing it. But the list "not being exhaustive" again does not mean all options are, or should be, allowed. Anything not on the list needs to pass GM approval. Unless someone can point something else out, that is the end of what the rules have to say on the matter. They neither explicitly deny nor allow your riding dog as a cohort.

Tangentially, I am a bit confused by your stance on this

Lorebot wrote:


I know that I could take feats for, or cross class into something that has, an animal companion or special mount and just treat the dog as a class feature. That's also not something I want to do for various reasons, but mostly because it feels like it cheapens the life of the animal since it makes them more easily replaceable.

So, if your riding dog dies, don't roleplay it as a easily replaceable class feature? It feels like your complaint here is a roleplaying opportunity (should you lose your dog). That is, roleplaying wise you don't have to just shrug and summon a new "companion" the following day.

Silver Crusade

bbangerter wrote:

There is nothing I am aware of that prohibits a 2 int creature from taking classes (though there is a rule about what feats animal companions with int 2 or less are able to take). If they can only select from a narrow selection of feats, that suggests other things that require at least some level of intelligence to master should also be disallowed - and personally I would think class levels fall into that category. But there is not an explicit rule about it, so your GM is wrong about that.

Likewise animals can't have an int above 2 is also not correct. There are some contradictory rules regarding this. Of those I personally think the animal companion rules that suggest and allow for a animal to gain int 3+ on level ups is certainly the intent as there is a whole set of rules around this. But otherwise, outside of GM purview, animals found in the wild should not have int > 2.

I think the animals aren't monster argument is specious. Monsters is broad in its meaning under the rules as you've noted. Is a dragon a monster or just an awakened lizard? Is a bulette a monster or just a cross breed of animals?

However, all of that said

Lorebot wrote:


Why would this be a house rule? What rule in what book says it's not possible and therefore has to be house ruled in?

There are a billion things that the rules don't explicitly forbid. But that isn't an argument that those billion thing are allowed by the rules. You generally need a rule to allow something to happen for it to be an option.

This

Lorebot wrote:


The Monster Cohort rules in the back of the Bestiaries all have tables of monsters and what level they should be treated as for being recruited as cohorts, but they all also say 'You can use the monsters on the following table as guidelines when determining effective cohort levels for monsters not on this list' which means the lists are not exhaustive and you can use monsters that don't appear on the lists.
This points to the rules potentially allowing it. But the list...

and yeah, the Monster Cohort rules do say 'with GM approval' and I appreciate that. I'm just really confused cause I'm being told it's not a 'GM approval' issue and that it's a rule somewhere and simply isn't allowed. That's my issue...


Lorebot wrote:
zza ni wrote:

if you look at the feat Monstrous Companion you can see that:

1. it count as the leadership feat for prerequisites and one can not have both it and the leadership feat

and
2. at least one of the creatures listed (the sea cat) has an int of 2 which is as high as some of the animals can get.

so i'm for one am fine with getting an animal as cohort, but id have it work more like the Monstrous Companion with upgrading the hd as per the monster rules..

Thank you for pointing out the Sea Cat has only 2 Int. I guess I need to find a copy of Bestiary 4 now...

here's a link for the Sea Cat.

Liberty's Edge

bbangerter wrote:

There is nothing I am aware of that prohibits a 2 int creature from taking classes (though there is a rule about what feats animal companions with int 2 or less are able to take). If they can only select from a narrow selection of feats, that suggests other things that require at least some level of intelligence to master should also be disallowed - and personally I would think class levels fall into that category. But there is not an explicit rule about it, so your GM is wrong about that.

Why, you would disagree with a wolverine with a few levels of barbarian?

;-)


Leadership - the role of cohorts & followers
Cohort & Plot hooks
Advancing Companion
essentially cohorts are not animal companions or familiars and are considered to be fellow humanoids that become your sidekick via Leadership. So essentially you are trying to step out of the mold the Game casts them into. That requires GM intervention or Home Game arbitration. There are two important points here; Home Game, and CR {the point is not to increase martial CR in challenges}. If you increase CR it is going to take a Feat to balance it out in the Game.

For animals(the creature type) the game has; Mounts, Animal Companions, Familiars, Pets|Beasts of burden|Animals(purchased animals or domesticated livestock). The last group are just regular animals that you bred/purchased that are reasonably domesticated and/or you manage through Handle Animal.
Optionally (through feats) you can get various other critters like Magical Beasts, Fey, Dragons, etc...

My Advice is to trade out Leadership for an Animal Companion. Your Home Game GM can help you figure out that process.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Can animals be cohorts? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions
Guided Hand vs CMB