Will Season of Ghosts have a phonetic pronunciation guide?

[Reebo Kesh]

I'm considering running this AP but I'm hesitant if it doesn't come with a phonetic pronunciation guide for all the Asian NPC/monster/place/item names.

I really don't want to butcher the pronunciation of these names and a phonetic pronunciation guide will help immensely with this.

Thanks
Reebo

[Totally Not Gorbacz]

Paizo doesn't do pronunciation guides anymore. Nobody will come to your house to shout at you that your pronunciation is wrong.

Let alone the fact that real-world languages have a pronunciation that's all over the place, tomato vs tomato, or ask anybody in Poland to pronounce "jalapeno" or "tempranillo", ideally with a Spanish speaker within earshot so they can get a seizure.

[Reebo Kesh]

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

Paizo doesn't do pronunciation guides anymore. Nobody will come to your house to shout at you that your pronunciation is wrong.

Let alone the fact that real-world languages have a pronunciation that's all over the place, tomato vs tomato, or ask anybody in Poland to pronounce "jalapeno" or "tempranillo", ideally with a Spanish speaker within earshot so they can get a seizure.

It's not about worrying that the pronunciation police will come along it's about having a guideline to sound out the names phonetically, rather than giving up and just butchering the name. It kills the immersion for our group. It would require minor effort at best from the writer who make up these names.

Considering the names they come up with in other APs you think they would include this as policy. Sadly it's something WOTC does better than Paizo.

Shame Paizo.

[Mammoth Daddy]

A lack of a pronunciation guide might discourage players and GM’s from recording and sharing their campaign sessions online out of fear of accidentally offending people due to mispronunciation.

[The Raven Black]

Mammoth Daddy wrote:

A lack of a pronunciation guide might discourage players and GM’s from recording and sharing their campaign sessions online out of fear of accidentally offending people due to mispronunciation.

Does this happen often ?

Also I do not remember people expressing this kind of worries for APs set in Avistan, in Garund, in Arcadia or in Mwangi.

It sounds odd to me to not play an AP unless there is a pronunciation guide.

[StarlingSweeter]

I think quite a lot of people played through Strength of Thousands without issue despite having plenty of vocabulary that is more based in non-english languages (Im looking at you Tzeinwe).

I would like to think the community has enough good faith that if someone were to pronounce it wrong in an actual play. Then they would get corrected, pronounce it right, then move on.

Besides, the logistics behind writing a pronunciation guide are actually pretty ridiculous. Is this a separate document? Whos writing it? Whos editing it? What language are they mapping a "proper" pronunciation to? Do they have the man power to polish all of this as a separate doc? If not, and they are just going to break down words after they introduce them, which words are deemed "foreign" enough to need it? If this isn't a separate document, is this taking up pages in the book? Will there be a glossary of words? Is that an additional page out of every book? How can they introduce a standard pronunciation guide through 6 books written by different people?

Sounds like a lot of hassle for something that could be handled per-table for home groups and with good faith by actual plays.

[Mammoth Daddy]

The Raven Black wrote:

Mammoth Daddy wrote:

A lack of a pronunciation guide might discourage players and GM’s from recording and sharing their campaign sessions online out of fear of accidentally offending people due to mispronunciation.

Does this happen often ?

Also I do not remember people expressing this kind of worries for APs set in Avistan, in Garund, in Arcadia or in Mwangi.

It sounds odd to me to not play an AP unless there is a pronunciation guide.

I can’t say I’ve played AP’s in Garund, Arcadia nor Mwangi- though they look like awesome settings. I’ve played Crimson Throne though, and so most of the names were relatively easy for me, as I just assumed the Shoanti tribes were very similar to Canadian First Nations Peoples- so I pronounced their names as such. Doesn’t nec. mean I got them right tho.

What I do know, just from experience and as a Canadian, is that it’s a real genuine, cultural fear up here to cause offence and unintentionally harm other people’s feelings and one’s own reputation. I’ve heard of players who (arguably) took too casual an approach to playing cross-cultural characters/within settings and have gotten in trouble.

To be fair, I think it’s healthy and good that players are now more likely to approach cross-cultural tropes, settings, and characters in a sensitive fashion, and yes there needs to be callings-in and out when people behave disrespectfully. What I’ve noticed living in Canada however, is that many people are loathe to risk publicly engaging in content outside their respective cultures and communities unless they have the time and resources to sufficiently prepare- such as getting any pronunciations right.

Granted, I think the fear of being ‘cancelled’ is overblown, and most people are likely to react negatively to those that go out of their way to be rude, shallow, or discriminatory- but for many Canadians who only read the headlines of such cases, the fear becomes exaggerated because they don’t realize that the ‘cancelled’ actor is very rarely ever acting in good-faith.

I myself admittedly would think twice about playing the campaign in a recorded or public setting without either a pronunciation guide, or a knowledgeable DM who can gently coach myself and my fellow players so as to avoid causing offence. Due to the nature of my work (social science academia) I tend to admittedly stress out about stuff like this, but I think it’s only fair that as the gaming community works to deconstruct and decolonize gaming and fantasy/fiction, that people new to a setting, or the real-world cultures it’s inspired by, are also given the necessary resources to ensure that we do it appropriately so as to not cause offence.

~

A few years ago I took part in a 2SLGBTQ+ committee on campus, and as one of the few white cis gay guys on said committee, it was quite a humbling, and learning experience for me. Being quick to both learn and apologize saved me plenty of times, but I’ll always be grateful for those who didn’t merely call out- but also ‘called in’ -and provided me with the tools and resources so to better meet the needs of my community- despite the ignorance and privileges with which I was raised.

It ain’t fun and games if you’re experiencing a panic attack, amidst a group of players, live, all because you cannot remember or properly pronounce a word or a name.

[James Jacobs]

There's no room nor time nor resources to create an in-print phonetic pronunciation guide in the adventures themselves, sorry.

[Mammoth Daddy]

What about as a free pdf download?

[James Jacobs]

Mammoth Daddy wrote:

What about as a free pdf download?

A free PDF download would solve the lack of room, but lack of time or resources to create it would remain problematic. Our schedules are tight normally, but in this current year they're even moreso with so many resources focusing on the remastered rules.

Hopefully folks will be able to give some advice on these boards on how to pronounce the names, many of which are drawn from real-world languages. I've leaned particularly hard on our writers and several folks on-staff who speak these languages to make sure that they're accurate in text, but I'm not experienced enough in those languages to provide phonetic pronunciation guides myself and am not comfortable putting other employees or authors on the spot to do so. I can't speak for their time.

[Mammoth Daddy]

Ok. <shrug> I understand. But note this may be a factor when groups consider an AP, especially if they plan to record their sessions for a public audience.

[Aeshuura]

Perhaps some of us can create a pronunciation guide here when it comes out. I am sure that several of us that are more familiar with the languages might be more than willing to contribute. I am familiar with Japanese language pronunciation, but am a little less so with Chinese dialects (I know a little of Mandarin and Cantonese, but am absolutely unfamiliar with Thai, Malayan, and other Southeast Asian languages...)

I am unsure which cultures they will be drawing most heavily from...

[James Jacobs]

Mammoth Daddy wrote:

Ok. <shrug> I understand. But note this may be a factor when groups consider an AP, especially if they plan to record their sessions for a public audience.

There's all sorts of things a group should consider for an AP. We do our best to do the bulk of the work for any one group, but can't do it all.

Once the adventures actually come out maybe we at Paizo will be in a better place to step into the forums here to provide some help on name pronunciations. I'll do what I can when the time comes, but moreso than most Adventure Paths I relied upon experts in those languages and am not comfortable presenting those pronunciations myself.

As for which cultures we'll be drawing most heavily from for Season of Ghosts: Japan, China, and Korea, but also from other regions as well. Shenmen draws inspiration from a wide range of horror stories from throughout Asia. It's not a region intended to match perfectly to a solitary world culture.

[James Jacobs]

THAT SAID: I very much appreciate and encourage those who want to run Season of Ghosts to do additional research on the topics and regions and language elements if you're not familiar with them yourself. Again, we've done a lot of that work for you, and have drawn upon a very wide range of incredible Asian creators to do this. I feel simultaneously humbled and nervous about being the lead developer for this project and am honored to have a chance to be a part of it, but more than most Adventure Paths... I just can't promise I personally will step in to help with pronunciation questions. There are many more better qualified folks to do that, but they're also very busy. I hope they can help, but I can't promise anything.

[Reebo Kesh]

Thanks for the response James, I understand, it is a lot of work.

As you suggested maybe some folk can create their own pronunciation guide and post it here.

[Reebo Kesh]

Here's the link for WOTC did a Pronunciation Guide for Icewind Dale: Rhime of the Frostmaiden.

It has 50 names all phonetically sounded out.

I do find it odd that the writers who are creating these names don't sound them out.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/idrotf/welcome-to-the-far-north#Pronuncia tionGuide

[Totally Not Gorbacz]

Reebo Kesh wrote:

Here's the link for WOTC did a Pronunciation Guide for Icewind Dale: Rhime of the Frostmaiden.

It has 50 names all phonetically sounded out.

I do find it odd that the writers who are creating these names don't sound them out.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/idrotf/welcome-to-the-far-north#Pronuncia tionGuide

That link doesn't lead to any pronunciation guide.

[James Jacobs]

I always recommend to our writers to say their names out loud when they create them. I do the same when I'm developing the text. This not only ensures that the name sounds as good spoken out loud as it looks good printed on the page, but also helps to give you a chance to find out if, said aloud, it's accidentally sounding like some other word or phrase that isn't appropriate.

It's good to deliberately mispronounce these words too based on the text to try to make sure that an incorrect pronunciation won't sound goofy or insulting or problematic.

And also, google the word. Sometimes a made-up word ends up meaning something in another language, or is otherwise a real-world word. In such a case, you'll need to weigh the options as to whether or not this is a big issue or not on a case-by-case basis.

ALL THAT SAID!

For names I invent, I'm usually willing to give folks a phonetic pronunciation for them whenever they ask. It's easy and quick for me to do this. The issue with Season of Ghosts is that so many of the names aren't actually made-up words, but variations and incarnations of real words and names drawn from across multiple different regions and languages, very few of which I'm personally comfortable teaching people how to properly pronounce out loud. Working with the writers and editors and readers I've had for Season of Ghosts I'm confident we're getting the spelling and print presentation of those names solid, but that due diligence doesn't include securing actual spoken pronunciations.

I get it that folks would like this, and I think it'd be a valuable tool for GMs to have to reference, but again, it's not something we have the time or resources now to create. That may change as we get to the end of the year and are closer to the release of Season of Ghosts, or maybe next year as we start releasing the Tian Xia hardcovers... or it might not.

In which case, relying upon these forums and folks' input will be invaluable. Hopefully some of us who worked on this Adventure Path will have the time then to answer those sorts of questions, but I can't tell the future.

[The Raven Black]

Sounds like it could be a fine Pathfinder Infinite offering too.

[keftiu]

If a lot of the names in this book are real-world Asian names, there are tons of resources out there for free that aren’t RPG books. Any GM worried about pronunciation could search that stuff up real quick.