Wolf Shaman Wild Shape Question


Rules Questions


Im fairly new here and english is not my native language so I apologize in advance for any mistakes.

So, one of my players rolled up a Wolf Shaman Druid, and the Wild Shape ability of that archtype states that he can transform into canines at +2 level or into anything else at a -2 level.

But the problem is that (at least in the d20pfsrd website) theres only 3 creatures tagged as canines.

Are there any other canines in the game? Or am I missing something about the archtype?

Liberty's Edge

You shouldn't look at a single ability in a vacuum, you get the whole package.

So, you get a modified Nature bond, a mostly weakened Wild Shape, and lose Venom immunity, but you get:
- a stronger Wild empathy with canines;
- Totem Transformation;
- Totemic Summons;
- a few bonus feats.

Canines are ill-defined in the rules, but I think that the only animals that count as such in the game are Dogs, Jackals, and Wolves.


There is no official "canine" tag, it's something the site added (as it so often does). And while not helpful in this particular search, I strongly suggest using aonprd.com, a much more reliable site for rules.

That said, a quick search gave me this list: Wolf, Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf, Dog, Riding Dog, Goblin Dog, Chelish Hell-Bred Dog, Hobbe Hound, Jackal, and Switchback Jackal.

In general, almost all the animal shaman Druid archetypes are very weak, the sole exception being Saurian Shaman.

Not only is the list of qualifying creatures for most of these archetypes rather small, and especially light on creatures where the +2 to effective Druid elvel is helpful, the sad truth is that not all animal types are equally good. If a player is going more for flavor than mechanics, it's fine, but from an objective standpoint, most of the animal shaman Druid archetypes are garbage because the creature they focus on is.

Wolf Shaman is actually probably the third best one, because it makes for a pretty good Trip build. On anythign else, I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole.


Diego Rossi wrote:

You shouldn't look at a single ability in a vacuum, you get the whole package.

So, you get a modified Nature bond, a mostly weakened Wild Shape, and lose Venom immunity, but you get:
- a stronger Wild empathy with canines;
- Totem Transformation;
- Totemic Summons;
- a few bonus feats.

Canines are ill-defined in the rules, but I think that the only animals that count as such in the game are Dogs, Jackals, and Wolves.

Yes, I know that, but the totemic summons for example only upgrades canines, the temporary hitpoints and the templates are cool, but the highest CR canine is the dire wolf, which he can summon with lvl 4 spell slots, then with templates he can make use of his 5th and 6th level spell slots to upscale the dire wolf, but further on those summons will get outclassed and theres no higher CR canines to summon


Derklord wrote:

There is no official "canine" tag, it's something the site added (as it so often does). And while not helpful in this particular search, I strongly suggest using aonprd.com, a much more reliable site for rules.

That said, a quick search gave me this list: Wolf, Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf, Dog, Riding Dog, Goblin Dog, Chelish Hell-Bred Dog, Hobbe Hound, Jackal, and Switchback Jackal.

In general, almost all the animal shaman Druid archetypes are very weak, the sole exception being Saurian Shaman.

Not only is the list of qualifying creatures for most of these archetypes rather small, and especially light on creatures where the +2 to effective Druid elvel is helpful, the sad truth is that not all animal types are equally good. If a player is going more for flavor than mechanics, it's fine, but from an objective standpoint, most of the animal shaman Druid archetypes are garbage because the creature they focus on is.

Wolf Shaman is actually probably the third best one, because it makes for a pretty good Trip build. On anythign else, I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole.

Thank you, I only want to give him some more options because I feel bad when my players end up disliking their characters.

My campaign is quite chill and the combat encounters are more on the easy side, but the problem is not about the power level of the class, but the scaling into higher levels. The canine thing is very loose and, if there are only 3 canines and the highest CR one is a dire wolf, then the summoning and wild shape ability of this archtype would be a severe handicap once he reaches a certain level.


Canines would also include foxes.

The other thing to consider is that wild shape grants specific abilities based on the spell Beast Shape. You don’t need to have a game write up for the creature you turn into because that is not what the ability gives. Beast Shape which Wild Shape uses gives specific things as long as the creature has it. Most if not all canines will have the same base abilities. There is no reason wild shape cannot be used to turn into a Dingo, even if a write up for one does not appear. You simply gain the abilities of a small canine.

If you want other canines do a google search and find other canines. Figure out the size and give them the appropriate abilities.

Liberty's Edge

I suppose the problem is that there aren't large or huge canines.

Wild shape forms essentially top up at level 12, after that, you don't get anything new. The Wolf shaman will be 2 levels behind, but he will still get all the shapes.

The ability to add extra hit points, to add the giant and/or advanced template to a dire wolf, and of casting the summoning spell as a standard action is so-so, but that is a common problem with summoning. What you summon generally isn't that useful when you consider the level of the spell.

The druid will still be capable of spontaneously casting the normal version of Summon Natue's ally, so there is no loss in being capable to do that.
Other Beast shamans calling stronger beasts will get better results.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Canines would also include foxes.

The other thing to consider is that wild shape grants specific abilities based on the spell Beast Shape. You don’t need to have a game write up for the creature you turn into because that is not what the ability gives. Beast Shape which Wild Shape uses gives specific things as long as the creature has it. Most if not all canines will have the same base abilities. There is no reason wild shape cannot be used to turn into a Dingo, even if a write up for one does not appear. You simply gain the abilities of a small canine.

If you want other canines do a google search and find other canines. Figure out the size and give them the appropriate abilities.

Yes, I know this, but the problem I see here is that at level 6 he gets to wild shape into canines at a +2 druid level. Usually that would mean that he can use wild shape as a 8th level druid, so he can wild shape into a huge animal as per the spell Beast Shape 3, but that doesnt work because huge canines do not exist in the game.

So that +2 to druid level when wildshaping into canines does nothing except extending the duration 2 hours.

Shadow Lodge

TheBlackHeartsDawn wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Canines would also include foxes.

The other thing to consider is that wild shape grants specific abilities based on the spell Beast Shape. You don’t need to have a game write up for the creature you turn into because that is not what the ability gives. Beast Shape which Wild Shape uses gives specific things as long as the creature has it. Most if not all canines will have the same base abilities. There is no reason wild shape cannot be used to turn into a Dingo, even if a write up for one does not appear. You simply gain the abilities of a small canine.

If you want other canines do a google search and find other canines. Figure out the size and give them the appropriate abilities.

Yes, I know this, but the problem I see here is that at level 6 he gets to wild shape into canines at a +2 druid level. Usually that would mean that he can use wild shape as a 8th level druid, so he can wild shape into a huge animal as per the spell Beast Shape 3, but that doesnt work because huge canines do not exist in the game.

So that +2 to druid level when wildshaping into canines does nothing except extending the duration 2 hours.

As mentioned by at least one previous poster, the 'specific animal theme shifter' druid archetypes are generally pretty bad: The flavor is kinda cool, but the mechanics are generally sub-optimal (you level past the Wildshape 'benefits' pretty fast while the 'penalties' just stick with you). These were part of the initial batch of archetypes and Paizo obviously didn't quite know what they were doing in some cases (the Totem Warrior Barbarian archetype in particular gives absolutely nothing after its errata)...

So, if you are looking at the Wolf Shaman archetype and thinking it kinda sucks mechanically, most players would probably nod and say 'yup, it sucks...'


Wild Shape (Su): At 6th level, a wolf shaman's wild shape ability functions at her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of a canine, she instead uses her druid level + 2.

The archetype states when you take the form of a canine you use your druid level +2. It does not specify you have to be an animal. At 8th level you can turn into a medium elemental. Elementals come in many different forms including those of animals. A 6th level wolf shaman should be able to take the form of a canine elemental.

Also, beast shape 3 allows you to change into a medium magical beast. I am not sure if a druid can do this with Wild Shape but that would allow you to assume more forms.

Liberty's Edge

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Wild Shape (Su): At 6th level, a wolf shaman's wild shape ability functions at her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of a canine, she instead uses her druid level + 2.

The archetype states when you take the form of a canine you use your druid level +2. It does not specify you have to be an animal. At 8th level you can turn into a medium elemental. Elementals come in many different forms including those of animals. A 6th level wolf shaman should be able to take the form of a canine elemental.

Also, beast shape 3 allows you to change into a medium magical beast. I am not sure if a druid can do this with Wild Shape but that would allow you to assume more forms.

CRB wrote:

Wild Shape (Su): At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to

turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day.

The archetype only changes the levels of the Wild Shape ability. it doesn't add forms. A druid can't change into magical beasts.

The canine elemental form is questionable. Elementals can have any form, but that doesn't change their abilities in any way. Saying "the elemental is dog-shaped, so it counts as a canine" wouldn't work with most GM.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Wild Shape (Su): At 6th level, a wolf shaman's wild shape ability functions at her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of a canine, she instead uses her druid level + 2.

The archetype states when you take the form of a canine you use your druid level +2. It does not specify you have to be an animal. At 8th level you can turn into a medium elemental. Elementals come in many different forms including those of animals. A 6th level wolf shaman should be able to take the form of a canine elemental.

Also, beast shape 3 allows you to change into a medium magical beast. I am not sure if a druid can do this with Wild Shape but that would allow you to assume more forms.

CRB wrote:

Wild Shape (Su): At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to

turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day.

The archetype only changes the levels of the Wild Shape ability. it doesn't add forms. A druid can't change into magical beasts.

The canine elemental form is questionable. Elementals can have any form, but that doesn't change their abilities in any way. Saying "the elemental is dog-shaped, so it counts as a canine" wouldn't work with most GM.

I have a solution in mind that is kinda homebrew but I need some advice here.

Do you think it would be bad if I allow my player to wildshape into a huge Dire Wolf so his archtype doesnt become useless as fast as level 6?

And would it be bad if I allow him to treat any monster that resembles a canine as a canine for the totemic summons?


Those sound just fine to me. If you compare the power to a saurian shaman it is still weaker.

Liberty's Edge

Java Man wrote:
Those sound just fine to me. If you compare the power to a saurian shaman it is still weaker.

I agree, it seems acceptable-


Eagle Shaman got an FAQ for that. Seems like Maybe Wolf could use something similar.

https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9raj

Quote:

Druid, Eagle Shaman: How can I take the form of a roc if a roc is Gargantuan and the maximum size I can reach with wild shape is Huge?

The lack of suitable giant bird stat blocks in official Paizo products hinders the rules options for this archetype.

To remedy this problem, an eagle shaman druid can use wild shape to take the form of a Medium eagle (as if applying the giant creature simple template to a Small eagle), and can use wild shape to take the form of a Huge roc (as if applying the young creature simple template to a Gargantuan roc). Abilities of the assumed form are determined by which beast shape spell the wild shape ability functions as, as determined by the eagle shaman's effective druid level.

This ruling only applies to the eagle shaman, not any other kind of animal shaman archetype.

So, other animal shaman were specifically left out of that FAQ, but I think that was more out of not wanting to handle dozens of unintended consequences than any reason to not include wolf.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Java Man wrote:
Those sound just fine to me. If you compare the power to a saurian shaman it is still weaker.
I agree, it seems acceptable-

Even more than that, I'd consider it good and proper GMing.

Tiny word of caution, though: If you decide that the huge wolf has a reach of 15 feet (which is what the best overall huge form, Allosaurus, as well as the sole huge cat, Warcat of Rull, have), a trip build with Weapon Shift with a reach weapon could be rather strong (depending on the campaign). I don't necessarily expect your player to go for that, but just as a heads-up.


You are the GM after all, if you find that your world lacks suitable canine creatures you are certainly free to create more and add them to it.

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