How does the spell Overwhelming Presence interact with Haste or the Release action?
Overwhelming Presence states, "You surround yourself with supernatural splendor, appearing to be a god or similarly majestic being. You choose the aspects of your new majestic appearance. This causes the targets to pay tribute to you by bowing or using some other action in keeping with your appearance. The number of times a target must do this depends on the result of their Will save. Paying tribute is a manipulate action or move action, as chosen by the creature paying tribute. A creature under this effect must pay tribute to you at least once on each of its turns if possible. While affected by this spell, a creature is fascinated by you and can't use hostile actions against you. The target is then temporarily immune for 1 minute."
I searched the forums and couldn't find any posts specifically related to my questions, so I thought I would ask.
During our game, I cast the spell haste and had Overwhelming Presence cast on me. So, at the beginning of my next turn, I gained an extra action that can only be used to Stride or Strike. Since the spell stated that I could use a move action to pay tribute, I asked if I could use the bonus Stride to pay tribute by slithering on the ground. It was ruled that 'Paying Tribute' constitutes a 1-action activity so I couldn't use the bonus Stride action. It was ruled that because the spell states, 'Paying tribute is a manipulate action or move action, as chosen by the creature paying tribute.' then it is my choice if the 'Paying Tribute' activity gains the manipulate or move trait. What are people's thoughts? Is 'Paying Tribute' a 1-action activity?
My second question was about activities and the sub-actions under them. For example, if while 'Paying Tribute' I 'Release' my weapon/gold at the feet of the creature, have I just created an activity that has the manipulate trait but is also composed of a single free action? Would that activity also be free? If so, would it count toward the Overwhelming Presence action requirement?
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For the first question, no: Haste says that you can Stride, not take action with the Move trait. Stride is a Move action, but not every Move action is a Stride.
Second question, I'd say it depends on how the DM decides to rule. The intended effect of the spell is making the targets lose actions (and possibly incur in AoO), and I wouldn't allow 'tricks' to circumvent that effect; anyway, dropping one's weapon can be detrimental enough to comply with the spirit of the spell.
Haste only lets you use an action to stride or strike.
The paying tribute activity is neither of those, and as a GM I wouldn't even let actual movement (from square to square) count. Lots of actions have the move trait, but many of them do not cause actual movement and none of them are Stride (except the stride action).
No cheesing this one.
You have 3 actions, and bonus action to stride or strike only. You must spend one of your 3 general actions to fulfill the requirements of Overwhelming presence.
The whole intention of overwhelming presence is to make you waste an action. As a GM, I wouldn't let you get around it (unless you made the save to ignore it in the first place).
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There is the rules for Gaining and Losing Actions that says that if you lose an action you can choose to lose any action regardless of what limitations or restrictions the action has. If Overwhelming Presence caused losing an action (like a slowed 1 effect) and flavoring it that you used the action paying tribute, then you could choose to lose the action gained from Haste.
But with the spell written the way it is - with a compulsion to spend an action in a certain way - I would agree with the others. You have to spend an action capable of being used for a generic manipulate or move action. And Stride is a move action, but it is a specific one that doesn't list itself as satisfying for the requirements of Overwhelming Presence.
Overwhelming Presence is basically defining a new action:
◆ Pay Tribute [move][manipulate]
You do something to honor the caster of Overwhelming Presence
You can't substitute that action with a free action or any other specific action.
Does Paying Tribute actually become an action or is it an activity composed of a single action? Spells like Foresight grant a brand new action and they are clear to define that action. Overwhelming Presence does not itself explicitly create a new action. I can see how it could be ruled that way, I'm just curious about consistency.
I completely understand how if paying tribute is an activity then I can't use the haste Stride. Haste is very specific about subordinate actions. What isn't clear to me about activities and actions is if I have an activity that is only composed of free actions is the activity also free?
Another way I can see it is that my character always have the option of throwing gold at the creature's feet. Interact to take out the gold, Stride to get to the creature and Release to drop it at his feet.
So, if while under the spell I decide to pay tribute by throwing treasure at his feet, how does align with my actions when I am not under compulsion?
I appreciate the clarifications!
Does Paying Tribute actually become an action or is it an activity composed of a single action?
The distinction between an Activity that costs one action and a single simple Action is an open question that we are hoping gets resolved in the next errata.
So I can't answer that, and I am not sure that it actually makes a difference. In either case, Haste wouldn't let you use the additional limited action to use ◆Pay Tribute. Pay Tribute is neither Strike or Stride.
Spells like Foresight grant a brand new action and they are clear to define that action. Overwhelming Presence does not itself explicitly create a new action. I can see how it could be ruled that way, I'm just curious about consistency.
Remember that the rules are not written by one person. The level of consistency that you are looking for is not something that we are likely to get. Biting Words also doesn't explicitly define the action that it defines. But it isn't Strike, or Cast a Spell, or Sustain a Spell.
I'm also not sure where you found the idea of spending three actions donating gold coins as the tribute. That seems like a very time consuming thing to do. So maybe if you failed or critically failed the save, that would be a reasonable option.
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Unless you can make a solid argument that somehow a stride pays tribute, you're not going to be using the action from Haste to fulfill the cost of Paying Tribute. And you're certainly not going to get away with paying no action cost, as that is the whole point of the spell (to make your enemy waste actions).
As for the idea of interacting to grab coins (1 action), striding (using your hasted action), and dropping coins at their feat (free action)...well I'd probably allow it. You're now spending your hasted action and one other action to accomplish the Tribute. It does put you in good position (if you're melee) but since you spent an action to interact and get your coins the spell has honestly accomplished what it intends to do.
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Captain Morgan wrote:In general, don't expect to lawyer your way out of clear intent in PF2.I wish people would just respect "don't expect to get out of clear intent" in general.
Agreed, but I find it particularly egregiousin PF2 where the balance parameters are so obvious and the GM is given so much room to adjudicate things. Games like PF1 were sort of built to be broken and low crunch games like Dungeon World have enough ambiguity to allow such arguments, but PF2 hits a midpoint where that stuff really doesn't fly IMO.
Claxon wrote:Agreed, but I find it particularly egregiousin PF2 where the balance parameters are so obvious and the GM is given so much room to adjudicate things. Games like PF1 were sort of built to be broken and low crunch games like Dungeon World have enough ambiguity to allow such arguments, but PF2 hits a midpoint where that stuff really doesn't fly IMO.Captain Morgan wrote:In general, don't expect to lawyer your way out of clear intent in PF2.I wish people would just respect "don't expect to get out of clear intent" in general.
Agreed. Most things in PF2 are balanced such that it's really obvious when an interpretation, even if it's a valid reading, couldn't be the intended function because it will typically blow out the balance altogether. And PF2 is consistent enough that this pretty obvious to everyone.
Unlike PF1 where there really wasn't an objective standard to compare to, and where there was plenty of broken things that required 0 weird or wobbly rules interpretations.