Magus - Eldritch Archer TWF


Rules Questions


So I am curious...I know all the reasons normal TWF doesn't work with Magus, but I was looking at something and realized an interesting possibility.

If you build a Magus who uses a Rapier and a Pistol, and choose the Eldritch Archer Archetype, could you use Spellstrike to shoot someone/cast a spell and still use TWF as part of your Full Attack since the Eldritch Archer specifically does -NOT- need a free hand for spellcasting? I'm not a rules guru, so just trying to figure out what I can/cannot do with this particular build.


Spell combat is its own full round action. Twf soecifically requires a full attack, not some other full round action. So no.


Let's make a distinction here, the difference between using two weapons and to make your allotted attacks and using TWF (which carries a specific penalty and grants extra attacks).

Spell combat is it's own full action, which contains a full attack but you cannot substitute a TWF full attack action.

As for whether you could use pistol and rapier...still no.

Eldritch Archer modifies your spell combat to:

Quote:
Instead of a light or one-handed melee weapon, an eldritch archer must use a ranged weapon for spell combat. She doesn’t need a free hand for ranged spell combat. The eldritch archer cannot accept an attack penalty to gain a bonus on concentration checks to cast a spell defensively.

So you can't use your rapier while making spell combat attacks. However, you could use two pistols while using Spell Combat. You couldn't provide material components for spells, but could provide somatic components despite your hands being full. The material issue could be overcome with eschew materials.

Shadow Lodge

Remember that reloading a pistol (or any ranged weapon, really) typically requires a free hand:

Source Ultimate Combat pg. 135

...
Loading a Firearm: You need at least one hand free to load one-handed and two-handed firearms. In the case of two-handed firearms, you hold the weapon in one hand and load it with the other—you only need to hold it in two hands to aim and shoot the firearm. Loading siege firearms requires both hands, and one hand usually manipulates a large ramrod (which can be wielded as a club in combat).

The Rapid Reload feat reduces the time required to load one-handed and two-handed firearms, but this feat does not reduce the time it takes to load siege firearms.

Loading any firearm provokes attacks of opportunity. Other rules for loading a firearm depend on whether the firearm is an early firearm or an advanced firearm.

Early Firearms: Early firearms are muzzle-loaded, requiring bullets or pellets and black powder to be rammed down the muzzle. If an early firearm has multiple barrels, each barrel must be loaded separately. It is a standard action to load each barrel of a one-handed early firearm and a full-round action to load each barrel of a two-handed early firearm. It takes three full-round actions by one person to load a siege firearm. This can be reduced to two full-round actions if more than one person is loading the cannon.

Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms are chamber-loaded. It is a move action to load a one-handed or two-handed advanced firearm to its full capacity. The Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a free action.

Liberty's Edge

Taja the Barbarian wrote:
Remember that reloading a pistol (or any ranged weapon, really) typically requires a free hand:[b]

I think that Claxon was hinting at that in his post. You can't use TWF with spell combat, but an arcane archer can use his iterative attacks with two pistols, one from each hand.


To be honest I wasn't accounting for the ability to reload because it's not necessarily relevant to a specific round of combat.

A 7th level Eldritch Archer (or whatever level iterative attacks come into play) could use Spell Combat to fire two pistols (without using TWF) and deliver a spell. Because spell combat grants the use of all of the attacks you would get as part of a full attack.

Now, this would be a very terrible idea.

1) As you pointed out, reloading is an issue, although it could be mitigated it's not easy to do so.
2) You're using two weapons, which are more expensive to enchant
3) You're using two weapons, but not getting extra attacks
4) You're using two weapons, which end up with a smaller attack die and worse mechanics than just using a single larger weapon. Unlike other magi, you can actually use a two handed ranged weapon like a bow.

Dark Archive

Spell combat requires both a free hand AND the weapon to be in hand when taking the full round action. You can't weapon swap during spell combat

"To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. "

If at any point you don't have a free hand or aren't wielding a weapon you invalidate the requirements.


Not for an Eldritch Archer though. Eldritch archer eschews the need for a free hand with spell combat, and with two one-handed weapons never stop wielding the required weapon.

Like it's still a terrible idea, but you can (as an Eldritch Archer) wield two pistols (or other one handed weapons) and "two weapon fight" but not using the Two Weapon fighting chain.

Edit: Name Violation, I think you missed key differences in how Eldritch Archer's version of spell combat works.


Name Violation wrote:

Spell combat requires both a free hand AND the weapon to be in hand when taking the full round action. You can't weapon swap during spell combat

"To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. "

If at any point you don't have a free hand or aren't wielding a weapon you invalidate the requirements.

This is not accurate. There is no prohibition about swapping weapons in spell combat if you have the means to do so (most characters won't have the means to do so*).

For example, if I take IUS, can I use spell combat with IUS? Yes. Unarmed strikes count as a light weapon. I can then punch at my discretion with my allowed BAB attacks. So long as I do not use the hand that is doing the spell casting part.

Similarly, if I start spell combat with say a rapier, get disarmed, then quick draw a backup rapier I can continue my attacks.

Spell combat requires "...one hand free..." while "...while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon...". Both rapiers are light weapons, so I continue to satisfy the requirements.

There is a requirement that the weapon has to be associated with your non-spell hand.

*Technically a magus who gets disarmed, and does not have IUS, could make unarmed strikes too, taking the AoOs for doing so.


And Eldritch Archer would seem to get around the requirement of having the weapon in your non-spell hand, since you can validly use a bow as an eldritch archer.

Liberty's Edge

Ranged spell combat clearly states that you don't need a free hand.

Eldritch Archer wrote:
Ranged Spell Combat (Ex): Instead of a light or one-handed melee weapon, an eldritch archer must use a ranged weapon for spell combat. She doesn’t need a free hand for ranged spell combat. The eldritch archer cannot accept an attack penalty to gain a bonus on concentration checks to cast a spell defensively. This ability modifies spell combat.

And Ranged spell bond removes the need to have a hand for somatic movements, as long as you wield the bonded weapon:

Eldritch Archer wrote:
Ranged Weapon Bond (Ex): At 1st level, an eldritch archer gains a bonded object as per the wizard’s arcane bonded object; it must be a ranged weapon, and it can’t be used to cast a spell once per day. Holding her bonded item does not prevent the eldritch archer from providing somatic components for her spells.


Claxon wrote:
And Eldritch Archer would seem to get around the requirement of having the weapon in your non-spell hand, since you can validly use a bow as an eldritch archer.

Correct. I should have clarified the above is pertaining to the generic magus spell combat.


All you need is auto reloading guns (no big issue).
So just take Arcane Strike and Spell Cartridge. First round to set up, 2nd round "anyways I started blasting".


Temperans wrote:

All you need is auto reloading guns (no big issue).

So just take Arcane Strike and Spell Cartridge. First round to set up, 2nd round "anyways I started blasting".

Yeah like the spell lvl 2 reloading hands and you will not have the problem


Zepheri wrote:
Temperans wrote:

All you need is auto reloading guns (no big issue).

So just take Arcane Strike and Spell Cartridge. First round to set up, 2nd round "anyways I started blasting".
Yeah like the spell lvl 2 reloading hands and you will not have the problem

I mean, you have the problem that you're doing this for no net benefit. If you want to be thematic sure, but like wielding a 2 handed firearm or bow is going to be better and you wont need to rely on other means to reload your weapons as much. Although with reload speeds being what they are, you will probably use them anyways. Getting reloads to be a free action is basically a requirement.

Anyways....just use a bow unless you really imagine the character as using firearms.


Claxon wrote:
Zepheri wrote:
Temperans wrote:

All you need is auto reloading guns (no big issue).

So just take Arcane Strike and Spell Cartridge. First round to set up, 2nd round "anyways I started blasting".
Yeah like the spell lvl 2 reloading hands and you will not have the problem

I mean, you have the problem that you're doing this for no net benefit. If you want to be thematic sure, but like wielding a 2 handed firearm or bow is going to be better and you wont need to rely on other means to reload your weapons as much. Although with reload speeds being what they are, you will probably use them anyways. Getting reloads to be a free action is basically a requirement.

Anyways....just use a bow unless you really imagine the character as using firearms.

No benefit? It is much easier to upgrade at low enchantment values, so you can have a gun with special effects on one hand and bonus damage on the other. Then mix and match as needed.


I mean, I guess technically but generally speaking flat +1 to attack and damage is better than most special abilities.

There might be a few used in a specific set ups that let's a combo function more effectively than the additional flat damage and attack bonus could. The hurtful property is one that comes to mind. Not sure on ranged weapons. Anyways, I'm generally going to want those kind of special effects on any weapon I'm using, not just one.

Although I will admit there is probably one combo out there where it makes sense to only have it on one weapon and sacrifice enhancement bonuses on the second.

I still think for most players it's not a benefit.

Liberty's Edge

For the magus, the main drawback of using two weapons is that you can use your arcane pool only on one of them. And the arcane pool can give you a good range of special abilities.

Arcane pool wrote:
A magus can only enhance one weapon in this way at one time. If he uses this ability again, the first use immediately ends.


Ok let's say that it's apply the two in the gun's, my question will be in what of the 2 weapons apply all the archetype class ability? Since this archetype was designed for a two handed weapon


Lyone wrote:
So I am curious...I know all the reasons normal TWF doesn't work with Magus, but ...

Point: It does work with the class, just not with some class abilities and it is generally not advantageous for standard Magus.

Liberty's Edge

Zepheri wrote:
Ok let's say that it's apply the two in the gun's, my question will be in what of the 2 weapons apply all the archetype class ability? Since this archetype was designed for a two handed weapon

Every time you activate the Arcane pool ability to enhance a weapon you can choose to what weapon applies, but you can apply to only one weapon at a time.

Range arcane bond instead applies to a specific weapon, that you choose at first level.


Zepheri wrote:
Ok let's say that it's apply the two in the gun's, my question will be in what of the 2 weapons apply all the archetype class ability? Since this archetype was designed for a two handed weapon

Just to make sure you understand, you know you can't actually Two Weapon fight (as in, using two different weapons with the two weapon fighting chain to gain extra attacks*) so it's not actually beneficial** to do so for a magus.

*Technically the first feat in the two weapon fighting chain doesn't grant an extra attack, it reduces the penalty for two weapon fighting which is an option anyone can access, albeit at a -4 penalty for an extra attack. And it's still not compatible with Spell Combat.

**Except as pointed out above that you could have enhancement bonuses on one weapon and special abilities on the other, if that is even really an advantage. I find it hard to imagine in what situation this is a true positive over using a single weapon but I wont completely ignore it either.

Edit: Not to mention after the first round of combat you have two empty guns and no free hands to reload. Not that it can't be overcome, but it takes investment to do so.


Claxon wrote:


**Except as pointed out above that you could have enhancement bonuses on one weapon and special abilities on the other, if that is even really an advantage. I find it hard to imagine in what situation this is a true positive over using a single weapon but I wont completely ignore it either.

I have seen multiple weapons of special materials put to good effect to overcome DR. But that is extremely situational.

In theory special abilities like flaming would be better to use against a creature with DR that you can't overcome the DR with damage type or increased weapon enhancement. eg, with bullets, flaming enchant would be better against a DR/slashing. But again so highly situational that unless you know you are going to face a lot of DR/slashing, not worth the generally less cost effective flaming enchantment.


Well the special abilities depends on what the player wants. For example placing Phase Locking on the secondary allows for you to deal with teleporting enemies. Placing distance allows you to deal with enemies out of range. Driving to enable energency bull rush/trips. Ghost touch to not need the arcana. Veering for people who like to use cover. Training with something like Snap Shot to save feats. Bewildeing for obvious reasons. Breaking for dealing with objects. Etc.

And those are just some of the good +1 effects that could go on a secondary weapon. While the main gets the classics.


Commentary
I think you have to take a "whole party" perspective too. 1-2 Pistolero and a Bard/Skald buffing morale, a wizard grtr magic wpn and such and some battlefield control, a tank forming the front defensive line for the ranged attackers.
So there's what can the class with reasonable WBL do, and how can the party make that better.
Reloading Hands and Unseen Servant can help.

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