|
Long time player of PF. New to PF2e. Playing a wizard in my first foray into this rule-set. We just attained 2nd level and looking at available feats.
I gain a "wizard class feat" and a "skill feat".
The rogue in the party gain a "skill increase" (which I don't get until 3rd level). I agree rogues should bump up their skills at a faster rate.
Here is my dilemma. One of the 2nd level Skill Feats that is listed is "Magical Crafting". Prerequisite: Expert in Craft Skill.
Now I can't get Craft to Expert level until 3rd level. Of course at that point I don't get another Skill Feat until 4th level. Thus that 2nd level skill feat I cannot take until 4th level - but the rogue companion at 2nd level can raise his skill to Expert and take this feat.
So am I looking at this right? A rogue can craft magical items 2 levels sooner than the wizard? Either I'm overlooking something or this is a headscratching revelation in game design.
A few things:
1. It is true that Rogue and Investigator get their first skill increase at 2 and other class do not, and this means they can start grabbing Expert Skill Feats early.
2. It is also true that there are a number of archetypes with level 2 dedication feats that raise some skill from Trained to Expert as part of the Dedication feat, allowing other classes to take Expert skill feats at level 2, if they go a particular route.
3. It is not quite true that you could not take Craft Magical Item until level 4 if you want it that badly, since it is, like most skill feats that aren't part of an archetype, both a skill feat and a general feat, allowing it to be taken with either feat type.
So it is true that a Rogue, as a class that has faster progression in skills as a major feature, that chose to focus on crafting has an easier time getting that feat early than a wizard, but not true that it is impossible for a wizard to start that early. (Though it is worth noting that the feat is only particularly impactful in some campaigns, as, in a major shift from 1E crafting, the crafting rules have been set up to not be a huge wealth difference against earning income with other skills in downtime, though it can be beneficial to people making batches of consumables they'll actually use or in campaigns where the party is likely to have a good amount of downtime away from major population centers, in a way that leaves crafting viable but makes other means of earning wealth in downtime difficult).
|
|
Thank you for the detailed and insightful response.
So since I can take as a general, I can take it at 3rd level wizard?
And i don't know much about archetypes yet - still trying to figure that one out - i have seen a few that say "add this skill as trained and if you already have it, pick a skill of your choosing".
I'm a wizard, I wanted to be a gishy fighter/wizard type, but I now realize I couldn't take the fighter dedication cuz I don't have 14 DEX (only 12).
DM said I could swap my Con and Dex to allow me to take it, but it appears it doesn't even allow you to take any proficiencies in armor, (just weapons); so it doesn't really seem worth it to me to take the fighter archetype anyways.
If I want a martial weapon, I can take my dwarven race-feat to unlock axes and such.
Also worth noting you won't be Magically Crafting much before level 3 anyway. It still costs money, which you simply won't have much of as a level 1 or 2 adventurer. You need to go out and actually adventure to accumulate wealth to afford magic items, and by the time you can you'll probably be lsvel 3. Plus, you can't craft items above your level and there's not much worth sweating for level 1-2 magic items.
The point that you really need Magical Crafting is when you start to find +1 Striking Weapons at levels 3 and 4. And even then, it isn't so much so you can make the weapons as move the runes around. Unless your GM is tailoring loot drops to your party, odds are the first magic weapons you find won't be the ideal weapon for your group. Especially if you're playing gunslingers, ancestral weapon specialists, monks, and what have you. Being able to move the striking rune over to your ally's sukgung will likely be more important than making items ever would have been. (It is a tenth of the cost and a quarter of the time.)
Magical Crafting will also be important if you can't just purchase items because you're in the middle of nowhere. (You still need formulas but you can hack it with the Inventor feat and the remaster promises to make it easier.)
|
|
good points Capt Morgan about when crafting is available. But to be fair that wasnt the point of the criticism - it still seems unusual game design that a rogue can do so sooner than a wizard.
For the other comments - too late to go do the magus thing i've already committed to do a dwarf wizard/fighter (I was trying to recreate my PF Society character Kharnak). It seems much less do-able in 2E.
I'll look at the sentinel idea. I didn't see it in the core rule book and that's all i've been using thus far.
Thanks all for the feedback and ideas.
good points Capt Morgan about when crafting is available. But to be fair that wasnt the point of the criticism - it still seems unusual game design that a rogue can do so sooner than a wizard.
For the other comments - too late to go do the magus thing i've already committed to do a dwarf wizard/fighter (I was trying to recreate my PF Society character Kharnak). It seems much less do-able in 2E.
I'll look at the sentinel idea. I didn't see it in the core rule book and that's all i've been using thus far.
Thanks all for the feedback and ideas.
If thematics are the concern, one should keep in mind the rogue can't make any items which include the casting of spells. That includes all wands, staffs, and scrolls, but also a sizable chunk of invested items. (A significant fraction of which let you cast a cantrip or a once a day spell through activation.) Rogues can cheat and get a quicker start, but ultimately have a more limited pool or options and will likely be worse at it thanks to their lower intelligence. (Unless they went Mastermind.) That feels perfectly appropriate to my narrative sensibilities.
But to be fair that wasnt the point of the criticism - it still seems unusual game design that a rogue can do so sooner than a wizard.
It's only unusual if you came from PF1 or other D&D games. Why? Because in other games, you had to have magical power (spell casting) to be able to create magical items. In PF2, there is a significant change in how crafting including magical crafting works. Most permanent magical items can be made by people with no innate magical ability. How? Well the game doesn't get into that really. It requires you to be above the "average" person in your ability to craft, and somehow taking the feat represents learning how to use something to create the magic for the item. Arguably you use magical reagents in crafting most permanent magical items and don't actually use your spell casting ability (except items that explicitly require spells to be used in casting).
If you understand that an (not the only) answer is that magical crafting doesn't actually depend on spell casting ability but your ability to use magical reagents in concert with your ability to craft items then it makes a lot more sense that wizards are not better at crafting magical items than rogues.
I am curious as to which Archetypes give the Expert in Crafting proficiency training; anyone got a list? I suspect this might be the solution to OP's problem.
I don't maintain lists. At a bare minimum, there's Pathfinder Agent, since that can raise any one skill to Expert.
Perhaps what is needed is more archetypes that focus on particular skills, so that they can advance certain skills to expert rank at level. And perhaps provide some relevant skill feat choice. Something like Acrobat, but maybe not as "OP" as acrobat.*
*Please note I don't think acrobat archetype is going to break anyone game, but it is more effective than 95% of archetypes out there, so it's probably a little too good. If nothing else, spending a 2nd level class feat to get legendary in an additional skill is too good (without having a similar archetype for literally every skill).
Yeah, one class feat into a dedication to get automatic scaling in Acrobatics is pretty OP. I am surprised that hasn't been errata'd yet.
**EDIT** There are an interesting amount of skill-based dedications though, I am surprised there isn't an Artisan/Crafter dedication.
Yeah, I don't know all the archetypes, but I was also surprised there isn't a crafting focused one. Auto-scale of the craft skill, as part of the dedication. Maybe the archetype has some additional skill feats (at level 2) which could then be chosen as a general feat at level 3 and retrained later.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The inventor archetype has brilliant crafter which grants auto scaling at level 4. The acrobat dedication is better, but the inventor archetype is better overall when you consider other options. Inventor has REALLY good feats.
But Inventor isn't common
I don't maintain lists. At a bare minimum, there's Pathfinder Agent, since that can raise any one skill to Expert.
I love Pathfinder Agent for that and the untrained proficiency. It's a fantastic archetype for a lot of concepts that need the oomph.
|
Hey there OP. I have spent a decent amount of time theory crafting wizard based gish builds. I have also built and played this character in Pathfnder Society play.
Important things to know about a wizard based gish build.
*Wizards (before the upcoming change) do not have proficiency in simple weapons. This is relevant because ancestry feat proficiencies only treats the qualifying weapons as simple for the sake of proficiency. So you still need to gain proficiency in simple weapons.
*As you likely know, wizards do not gain proficiency in any armor, only in unarmored. The Sentinel dedication gives proficiency in light and medium armor. It only goes further to give proficiency in heavy armor if you already have proficiency in light and medium armor.