So I posted this on Reddit as well, but not only have I not gotten many replies but also the last time I trusted PF1e subreddit I was informed by the experts here that some of the decisions I made via their advice wasn't the best.
So to replace my Magus character in my frienDM's campaign, I decided to go with a Witch. This is because a) the party does not have a full caster and b) casting spells for various effects in combat is more engaging for me instead of rolling dice and hoping to smack a mf. However, the next session will be this Sunday, and I haven't finished building the character due to a few caveats. (For reference, the group uses https://www.d20pfsrd.com/ for basically everything for character creation)
~Pathfinder is MASSIVE with its content, so even with reading into a couple of guides, it's hard to make sure I haven't missed anything (which is why I find it easier to post here and get input from folks for have played for a while). Making any character means a lot to look at, but starting at Lvl 3 even more so.
~I'm trying to balance theme/flavor with optimal character design, because while I want to stay on theme I would also like to make sure I'm not useless. My theme is a young Changling Witch who has a turtle familiar, mother was Night Hag and father was a merfolk, and she's tiny and neurotic and she will change physically and become more Hag-like as she gets stronger and has to balance her new confidence with being aggressive and potentially full-blown evil. I wanted to balance between Hexes and Spells that would be useful to make potions out of as well as having spells that also align with what a Night Hag would have (Sleep stuff, nightmare stuff, corruption stuff) and maybe some water-esq spells, but it will have to be my starting spells/spells on level up because...
~My frienDM has come up with a cool concept for a Patron/Archetype mix, in the sense that it will give me all my Patron spells at level benchmarks but also some additional things I can do that aren't spells (additional class features I guess). It's not ENTIRELY worked out or explained to me just yet, but the general idea is temporary body augmentation and expanded potion creation/gaining effects when eating various monster parts...essentially Cook People, but considerably more fleshed out. These are my Patron spells (but not the exact order the spells are in via Patron Level Benchmarks), but what I was given for my Patron spells are the following: Cheetah's Sprint, Hallucinogenic Smoke, Ice Body, Shadow Body, Frightful Aspect, Eruptive Postules, Hellmouth Lash, and Bone Fists. Full casters aren't really known for melee combat, but the idea is to have some options based on body-morph that could work in conjunction with stat-ups and possible stat changes as I become more Hag-like.
~I rolled like absolute shit: 17, 16, 11, 11, 11, 11 is what I rolled. I plugged the 17 in Int and the 16 in Dex, but via Changling rules I have a negative Con, so I've read some guides and know about Mithral Bucklers and Silken Ceremonial Armor, but I would like any help I can get to boost my AC a bit more. It was the original reason I grabbed a turtle familiar but now I'm attached to the idea based on the theme now of the turtle being her emotional support familiar. Speaking of the familiar, there might be things that happen to him as well, but I don't plan on him being a combat familiar so should I grab a Familiar Satchel?
~As for extra stuff, all characters in our campaign get to have extra/custom stuff based on our race. For me, I get both the Potion Lung and Accursed Blood feats for free and two Changeling Racial traits (Night Hag Disease saving throws bonus and Merfolk water breathing and swim speed) as well as the Ocean's Daughter trait that gives +1 to Swim checks and auto-succeed on Swim checks to avoid taking nonlethal damage. Additionally, we get an extra starting feat, and we get to pick two traits, so I have three feats and two traits of my choice to pick that I'm not sure what to grab outside of I saw something about a feat that gets me extra Hexes?
~If it matters for party synergy, my party consistent of an Undead Ghoul Fighter, a Human Witch Hunter (yeah, that ought to be fun!) with a spear that can absorb fire to deal more damage, an Aasimar Warpriestess with a magic ice shield, and a Human who is some sort of martial class that I don't know at this time. Originally their was a Dhampir Rogue who sacrificed his Sneak Attack for more skill ranks, but he is temporarily being replaced with the Ghoul Fighter for plot reasons.
I haven't done NO research at all, but the last time I went by Reddit and my research alone I ended up not liking what I was playing...so I decided to run this by what I like to call 'The Paizo Council of Elders' to help me in the right direction to get the experience that I'm looking for. I may not be able to do all of it, but getting as close as I can will be fine.
I've long thrown away most of the high optimization advice that I've seen on these (and any) forums and only engage with some of it when I need to hit certain benchmarks for the character to be adequate at what they do, not optimal. I've been in enough games to know for sure that high optimization is only needed for certain playstyles. So, take any suggestions that I offer with that in mind.
For your ties to the Night Hag, in addition to being a Changeling, have you considered the Hagbound witch archetype? This archetype oozes with flavor for what you are doing but might not offer exactly what you are looking for. There is also the Hag of Gyronna witch archetype.
The Extra Hex feat is the one that grants you an extra hex, and one that I highly recommend utilizing at first level if you take either one of these above archetypes. One other fun source of patrons/hexes is to take a look at the Unique Patrons that are available to the witch. They all come with a bonus hex and some sort of drawback. Hag's Calling might the most thematic one for you.
If you let me know which archetype you are planning to use, I can offer more advice (even if its not one of the ones that I listed). As of right now, your potential choices are far too numerous for me to offer anything other than a gentle push in one direction or the other. In short, pick a primary role (examples: controller, buffer, debuffer), a secondary role (examples: ranged, melee, or switch-hitter), and a tertiary role (examples: backup healer).
EDIT: One suggestion I have is to stop relying on rolling ability scores. You are far better off using point buy. I understand it might be too late for that, but for future games ... Yeah.
I've long thrown away most of the high optimization advice that I've seen on these (and any) forums and only engage with some of it when I need to hit certain benchmarks for the character to be adequate at what they do, not optimal. I've been in enough games to know for sure that high optimization is only needed for certain playstyles. So, take any suggestions that I offer with that in mind.
For your ties to the Night Hag, in addition to being a Changeling, have you considered the Hagbound witch archetype? This archetype oozes with flavor for what you are doing but might not offer exactly what you are looking for. There is also the Hag of Gyronna witch archetype.
The Extra Hex feat is the one that grants you an extra hex, and one that I highly recommend utilizing at first level if you take either one of these above archetypes. One other fun source of patrons/hexes is to take a look at the Unique Patrons that are available to the witch. They all come with a bonus hex and some sort of drawback. Hag's Calling might the most thematic one for you.
If you let me know which archetype you are planning to use, I can offer more advice (even if its not one of the ones that I listed). As of right now, your potential choices are far too numerous for me to offer anything other than a gentle push in one direction or the other. In short, pick a primary role (examples: controller, buffer, debuffer), a secondary role (examples: ranged, melee, or switch-hitter), and a tertiary role (examples: backup healer).
EDIT: One suggestion I have is to stop relying on rolling ability scores. You are far better off using point buy. I...
As mentioned in my post, my frienDM is creating a Patron/Archetype combo that is based on partial body morphing. I didn't link each of the spells because Paizo forums require you to do it Ye Ol' Fashioned way, but I supposed I can take the time to do that now.
These are my Patron spells.
Cheetah's Sprint, Bone Fists, Hallucigenic Smoke, Ice Body, Shadow Body, Frightful Aspect, Eruptitive Pustules, and Hellmouth Lash.
We are working on the Archetype-esq portion where I will have class features that allow me to do some stuff based on eating monster parts, raw or cooked.
Update as well: in addition to the above listed, I've recently been informed that I get to pick THREE traits instead of two, and I was given two more traits for free: Keen Appraiser and Deepsea Native.
Yeah I originally looked into the Hagbound and Hag's Calling stuff and honestly, already being a Changeling some of the Hagbound stuff was more miss than hit and Hag's Calling is only really good for already being in a coven which my Witch is not and replaces Patron spells so I'm not super about it. We will rock my Hag transformation stuff more homebrew as we go, but I think some portions of Hagbound will be used.
Hey guys, I wanted to give an update.
So the above spells are all still my Patron spells, and while there might be some debate on their strength or scaling, this is due to my frienDM trying to make my Patron spells themed on transmutation spells of which the list was relatively limiting in his opinion to make a properly-scaling Patron spell list.
However, based on his decision, Gwynnifred (my witch) will have the ability to use Monsterous Physique a limited number of times per day in a similar vein to Druids with Wildshape and that it will level up with me at benchmarks but still have all the proper restrictions and the additional note that the more I use it the more it starts to affect me when I revert back.
Additionally, we have expanded on the concept of Potion Lung and I will be able to eat spells and spit them back out a number of times per day as well.
Since my DM doesn't approve of Ritual Hex, I'm going with Accursed Hex and Accursed Hex Mythic as well as Extra Hex for the three feats I get (my party gets an extra starting feat).
I'm grabbing Cauldron, Evil Eye, and Slumber as my starting Hexes...now I just need to come up with some spells to take before this Sunday...
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Hey guys, I wanted to give an update.
So the above spells are all still my Patron spells, and while there might be some debate on their strength or scaling, this is due to my frienDM trying to make my Patron spells themed on transmutation spells of which the list was relatively limiting in his opinion to make a properly-scaling Patron spell list.
However, based on his decision, Gwynnifred (my witch) will have the ability to use Monsterous Physique a limited number of times per day in a similar vein to Druids with Wildshape and that it will level up with me at benchmarks but still have all the proper restrictions and the additional note that the more I use it the more it starts to affect me when I revert back.
Additionally, we have expanded on the concept of Potion Lung and I will be able to eat spells and spit them back out a number of times per day as well.
Since my DM doesn't approve of Ritual Hex, I'm going with Accursed Hex and Accursed Hex Mythic as well as Extra Hex for the three feats I get (my party gets an extra starting feat).
I'm grabbing Cauldron, Evil Eye, and Slumber as my starting Hexes...now I just need to come up with some spells to take before this Sunday...
the mythic feat can only be taken in a mythic campaign.
Do the character have mythic levels?
the mythic feat can only be taken in a mythic campaign.
Do the character have mythic levels?
So as a quick update, we had our first session and I picked my spells but yet again I'm really feeling how Pathfinder likes to place very strict limits on characters in the early levels. Learning that, as a Lvl 3 prepared caster, I can only prep 2 2nd Level and 3 1st Level spells and ONLY because my high Int gives me an extra from both was really sobering considering I felt like I was struggling to find useful options as it was when choosing what spells I know only to find out how few I can cast anyway.
However, I will give the benefit of the doubt in that A) We haven't had combat yet for me to truly feel the brunt of only having 5 non-cantrip spells available to me per day, and B) Hexes are my big class feature and Evil Eye doesn't have the typical 24-hour restriction so if I'm out of spells I'm have something available to me to do. I had a similar issue with the Magus previously, and it feels like PF1e takes a direction of bottlenecking early-level characters in a way that almost forces them to fail at the things they are supposed to be good at in some way, and I think it comes from this idea that every Lvl 1 character is a fresh adventurer when that really doesn't seem to be entirely accurate.
Don't really wanna go into it too much since I had my fair share of it in another thread as well as talking with my friends/party about it, of which many of them agree with me and feel like newer systems are much less harsh on early-level characters without removing all the tension and threat of being an early-level character.
However, Name, I had no idea what Mythic was until now, and I'm still not sure I get it. I thought it was just a third party feat. I'm having my frienDM see what he thinks about it...but the notion that something that is supposed to be SO high level it gets its own special levels require me to take a prerequisite feat AND all it does is give disadvantage to the target's second roll against my Hex if they passed the first time is crazy to me. To me, that feels like a Lvl 7-Lvl 10 class feature, not something that demands so much investment and special rules.
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Not having many spells per day: this is the big hassle for a low level spell caster. Your sleep and evil eye not having limited uses is a nice balance to that. And don't neglect your cantrips, the witch list is not great for them, but daze and stabilize are solid. Stabilize is particularly nice when you need it because it has range. And you have guidance, always popular for spamming before every out of combat skill roll.
After those options run out or don't work you come to your crossbow and alchemist fire, maybe scrolls.
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However, Name, I had no idea what Mythic was until now, and I'm still not sure I get it. I thought it was just a third party feat. I'm having my frienDM see what he thinks about it...but the notion that something that is supposed to be SO high level it gets its own special levels require me to take a prerequisite feat AND all it does is give disadvantage...
the mythic feat can only be taken in a mythic campaign.
Do the character have mythic levels?
You might not feel it's that powerful, but unless you're character is able to rival demigods (at minimum) in power, you're not supposed to take mythic anything
Not having many spells per day: this is the big hassle for a low level spell caster. Your sleep and evil eye not having limited uses is a nice balance to that. And don't neglect your cantrips, the witch list is not great for them, but daze and stabilize are solid. Stabilize is particularly nice when you need it because it has range. And you have guidance, always popular for spamming before every out of combat skill roll.
After those options run out or don't work you come to your crossbow and alchemist fire, maybe scrolls.
Mythic is not really "super high level".
Its more "you are now a demigod" and have access to some extra bit of power as a result. That is why it uses its own levels so that you can be tier X demigod and level Y character. Think of it as a secondary character track instead of an extension.Further more the mythic feats are upgrades to what the base feats would normally do. For example Quick Draw normally limits what items you can draw, but Mythic Quick Draw removes that restriction and allows you to expend power to draw 2 hidden items. Is it really strong? Not really. Is it more than a character would normally be able to do? Definetly.
Also maybe while talking with friends or other threads you may have realized this but this is how PF1 treats different levels:
Lv-2 - Kids.
Lv-1 - Teenagers.
Lv0 - The average person they can do stuff but really aren't anything special.
Lv1 - The average person, but they paid attention in class or are physically fit.
Lv5 - The olympic athletes and famous thinkers.
Lv10 - Most myths.
Lv20 - The strong but still clearly not the best myths.
Lv20 tier10 mythic - The most famous most powerful myths.That's why the common suggestion is to start at lv 2 or lv 3. Also yeah, older systems liked the low levels being deadly. Some early game systems even expected you to lose multiple characters at level 1.
Just want to note that I enjoy reading Temperans' posts because of how much they just feel like someone who genuinely enjoys the game and wants others to have fun.
Yes I do have a crossbow for if a battle goes long enough that I have no Hexes or non-Cantrip spells left, and while I haven't crafted anything yet I will be crafting many things to have in battle so I'm sure I will always have at least something up my sleeve.
I'm also glad to see others who have much more investment in PF1e being honest with how the system really does crunch down on earlier levels, so it isn't just me or my friends being crazy or some sort of echo-chamber made up of a lack of experience.
As for the whole Mythic feat thing, my frienDM has decided to rate it on a case-by-case basis just like with all other feats, but he isn't a fan of the Mythic system as being a separate thing and feels like that should be up to the GM and the players and how the world is built rather than a mechanic that requires a whole leveling system just to grab feats that are a bit lackluster when the idea is about making you demigod-comparable. So he approved me having the feat without needing to take any 'mythic levels'.
As for the whole 'Monsterous Physique' as a class feature, I now understand that Polymorph and anything like it isn't like 5e where you actually just get the statblock outside of your non-physical stats: I'm not grasping it entirely, but it is much more piecemeal on what you get, what you don't, and what you lose.