go unnoticed with a vehicule

[CVTeam]

Was on a situation where the team must go unnoticed at night accros the city with a cart. There is a wounded man in the cart that need to be transfer into a secret location to be heal unnoticed.

I was arguing my GM about the skill to use. I said "stealth check" to go unnoticed in the street while wearing black cloaks and putting a black sheet on the cart. The GM asked for a "disguise check" instead.

The GM asked me after to argue with paizo and not him. So here we are. Any ideas?

Pathfinder 1rst edition - normal rules

[Diego Rossi]

From what little information you give, it seems that you needed to hide the wounded person, not the cart. Black cloaks and black sheets on the cart seem the perfect way to draw attention and will not hide a cart.
So, I agree with your GM, it was a matter of disguise and/or bluff, concealing the passenger or the cart look like something that can go normally around during the night, like a soil gathering chart (not ideal for a wounded man), the chariot of a party goer returning home and so on.
Even simply loading straw and hiding the wounded person under it could be enough, as long as the river isn't an heavily armed and armed person.

[Valandil Ancalime]

You are not going to go "unnoticed at night across the city with a cart". If you have ever driven across a city in the middle of the night you know how much you would stand out. And like Diego said "Black cloaks and black sheets on the cart seem the perfect way to draw attention". Stealth could be used to hide the wounded person on the cart, but bluff, disguise and/or diplomacy could all be used to get that cart across the city. Various knowledge skills could be useful to know what kind of disguise/bluff/etc... would be best.

[Claxon]

Yeah, this seems like a multi-skill challenge, and I think stealth is one of the least appropriate skills for it.

Stealth applies to an individual creature trying to hide. You're not hiding a cart with stealth.

You might disguise the cart to make it less interesting and less suspicious to anyone who might be out. You might also disguise the wounded passenger to hide them. I might accept a stealth check from the passenger attempting to hide to make it difficult to notice they're in the cart, if appropriate things were done to give them a place to hide (like under hay). Bluff might be used to misdirect those you encounter, or diplomacy to negotiate with them into ignoring you. Or intimidate. You can even use appropriate knowledge skills to know the shortest route, as well as the least traveled routes, and even routes that might be appropriate for the type of vehicle you're pretending to be (a refuse cart, dirt cart, and hay cart all have different appropriate places they'd be going that the local city watch probably know).

But in the end, trying to use stealth on the cart is a definite no.

[Diego Rossi]

Claxon wrote:

But in the end, trying to use stealth on the cart is a definite no.

From what I know, there were instances in the middle ages when it was done, but it was used outdoors, at a ford, by night, to avoid a local lord that was more a robber baron than a noble. Locally, how people muffled the beast's hooves and oiled the wheels to avoid noise is still a legend.

Doing that within the city walls won't help much.

[Phoebus Alexandros]

Like Claxon, I think you're looking at a multi-skill challenge.

If you're intent on moving silently and avoiding being spotted, with a loaded cart, you're looking at a Stealth check opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you, at a minimum with a -5 penalty if you move more than 15 feet in a round, and a -4 penalty for a large-size (I assume) cart. Your GM would be within his rights to impose additional penalties if animals are pulling the cart, if your cart is going across cobbled streets, etc. It shouldn't be impossible, but it's likely to be very hard.

I disagree with your GM requesting a Disguise check. That skill makes it clear it's about altering one's appearance, not hiding a person. Disguise might apply if you wanted to make it look like the man wasn't dying, though.

Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate would be needed if one of the people that inevitably notices the cart making a racket in the middle of the night decides to investigate what's happening. I agree with Claxon that a Knowledge (local) check would be apropos for figuring out the best route to take.

[Claxon]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Claxon wrote:

But in the end, trying to use stealth on the cart is a definite no.

From what I know, there were instances in the middle ages when it was done, but it was used outdoors, at a ford, by night, to avoid a local lord that was more a robber baron than a noble. Locally, how people muffled the beast's hooves and oiled the wheels to avoid noise is still a legend.

Doing that within the city walls won't help much.

Eh, I still wouldn't call that a stealth check with respect to how the skill is used in PF1. In PF1 is pretty much only used (as far as I know) to have an individual person hide themselves. You could use things like knowledge engineering (with an incredibly low check) to know that oiling the axels would make it quieter. And that adding something to the hooves of your horses, ox, donkey, whatever to muffle the sound would help to draw less attention.

But stealth requires having cover or concealment, and presumably a large cart isn't going to have either. At least not for the duration of the route.

There is a difference between "hiding" the cart by making it less conspicuous and using stealth (like a creature uses it) to make it unobserved. I'm in the camp the flat out stealth is not an appropriate check for the cart (or someone on behalf of the cart) to make.

[Diego Rossi]

Besides what other people have said, what is the stealth skill of the cart?
You roll the skill of the creature hiding not yours.
Maybe you could use your ranks, but not your dexterity and a cart hasn't a dexterity score.

Quote:

Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment.

You can use your stealth check to hide small items on your person, not to hide big items carrying you.

[Phoebus Alexandros]

Sleight of Hand allows you to hide small items on your person, not Stealth.

[Azothath]

CVTeam wrote:

Was on a situation where the team must go unnoticed at night accros the city with a cart. There is a wounded man in the cart that need to be transfer into a secret location to be heal unnoticed.

I was arguing my GM about the skill to use. I said "stealth check" to go unnoticed in the street while wearing black cloaks and putting a black sheet on the cart. The GM asked for a "disguise check" instead.

The GM asked me after to argue with paizo and not him. So here we are. Any ideas?

Pathfinder 1rst edition - normal rules

so this is in the past tense - it's been done.

Disguise(Cha) and Stealth(Dex) can get confused in some situations and they can work together. They're both classic Rogue skills. IMO the GM should have asked for BOTH (assigning circumstance modifiers as deemed appropriate).

Comments
My suggestion is to learn and move on. Don't hold onto it as a failure or that you were done wrong. The GM could have had another idea/strategy he was considering and trying to help out... did you ask?
It could also be that the scenario asked for skill check A then skill check B and he was just following the script and not paying attention to what you were doing. I've seen that happen more than I care to relate.

SO - check out the skill links above.
Disguise is trying to appear to be something else and overcome/trick Perception. (it's really for people, not things. Cart of dead people, rag cart, tinker cart...) Action: Creating a disguise requires 1d3 × 10 minutes of work. Using magic (such as the disguise self spell) reduces this action to the time required to cast the spell or trigger the effect.
Stealth is trying to avoid/overcome/trick Perception.(BIG penalty for size) Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

My Question is did anyone have Heal(Wis) skill? Check the guy out? It would have been far easier and sensible (PCs got resources) to fix him and piggy back/walk him about and use the cart as a distraction if people are looking for it. You could have also gotten 3 carts and played the classic shell game. Think about what options you have rather than follow a script and be forced onto a railroad of predetermined actions.