Paizocon 2023: Primal Previews


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Just cross posting from The Magic Sword for those that aren't on reddit. Full details on the primal previews
The Kineticist looks cool. I like the page of powers they show.

Large Minotaurs and Centaurs.

But mostly the Spellsong Lyrebird. Love the concept and it is based on a local bird.


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I'm excited for my Medium Centaurs and Minotaurs, but glad Team Large got their wish! Plus they confirmed Acid, Cold, and Electricity for Kinetic Blasts.


Was there anything about dc scaling for Kineticist?

but the other stuff looks great

the bird is pretty, I like it - I wonder if you can get it as specific familiar since it was intended to be one


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

We didn't get specifics at the panel, but some of the developers are doing AMAs. The Kineticist goes to Legendary.


Was there any news on whether or not we'll be seeing an elemental or genie eidolon for the summoner?


Love this - in particular as my setting already had Minotaurs and Centaurs - and making them (more easily) playable is awesome!

I’m general love the updates and info.


I remember the old justification for why nothing ever got to be proper Large, taking up multiple squares, at least with D&D was that battlemaps are only so big and PC's need to be able to fit through doors and hallways. I can definitely look at AP battlemaps and see plenty of chokepoints, and even with squeeze rules I could see issues arising from 5 foot wide hallways.

I also wonder how that impacts the versatility of these ancestries, as being Large grants 5 more feet of bonus reach as well as the four squares resulting in a pretty big area to lock down with reaction attacks. That's very valuable for melee characters and almost cosmetic for everything else. We saw art of a Minotaur caster of some sort, and I'd hate for them to have to be Medium because too much of hte power budget is going into this thing they aren't particularly likely to mechanically benefit from even though it's just innately cool to be big.

Also, I want level 1 iruxi/lizardfolk to get to be Large too. I want to be beeg, Paizo, I don't care if it's in nerfed form. Something about having a larger token than everyone else is satisfying to my lizard brain.


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Being large does not automatically mean more reach. Minotaur seems like an obvious choice for more reach but centaur has a human upper body so I don't think they will have extra reach.


yeah, I would guess Centaurs would have some limitations based on the fact that the humanoid portion is still medium size. You might take up more space but that doesn't mean you can reach further or use larger weapons.


Good to hear of the feat with the multiple damage types. I wonder what fire's alt damage type would be?

I continue to be more and more excited about kinet, and at the same time more and more nervous. Will single element fire blaster be good and not hard walled? Ahh I'm so scared!

Also at first I was SUPER disappointed to hear metal druid being dropped, but then I was reminded that the metal anathema for druids was dropped, so all is good! Another sacred cow to slaughter, love to see it.

Radiant Oath

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Twiggies wrote:
Also at first I was SUPER disappointed to hear metal druid being dropped, but then I was reminded that the metal anathema for druids was dropped, so all is good! Another sacred cow to slaughter, love to see it.

Yes, that surprised me! I like that it kind of removes the need for a complex lore justification. Much as I like the idea of a maverick circle of druids challenging the paradigm of metal being inherently manufactured and "civilized," and the potential for drama that causes, there doesn't need to be a RULE justification to have that drama.

My dream of playing a druid-knight is now much easier to achieve!

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Twiggies wrote:
Good to hear of the feat with the multiple damage types. I wonder what fire's alt damage type would be?

Moar fire!!! Available to goblins only.


so centaur and minotaur are going to be new ancestries

do we know anything about possible addition of satyr?

on a different note: any updates on how blasts will work except from that we got mixed elemental ones?


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Something that could be noticed in the print of the part of the book with the water features.

Impulse no longer has the Manipulate trait built in (you now see the trait explicitly in the impulses that have it, even in Deflecting Wave it is not there, thus avoiding AoO.

Another thing that could be noticed was a readjustment in power. I don't know if the overflow has changed much, but comparing Tidal Hands and Winter's Clutch, I can see that the effects and "heightned" of Winter's Clutch are equivalent to a strong and efficient cantrip like EA and the damage progresses in an equivalent way, while Tidal Hands that have overflow have a very good and flexible AoE, and a "heightned" (1d8) more efficient than a cantrip (1d4), but less than a damage spell would normally be (2d6) which is fair enough for an ability with unlimited uses. And another very interesting detail is that none of these 2 have the manipulate trait, basically allowing the kineticist to fight melee without worrying about AoO, which is great especially for things with a cone effect like Tidal Hands!

In general, they solved the damage problem in the playtests very well. Call the Hurricane is as good as a tier 8 fireball, it just doesn't progress as well. But let's face it for a skill with unlimited uses that doesn't have the Manipulate trait, that's great!

I loved Sea Glass Guardians! A 1-action stance, which gives +1 state AC to you and all your allies, with no limit on number or range, and if any of you take critical damage, it heals 4d8+8 ("heightned" +1d8 every 3 levels) borders on OP!

From what I've seen on Barrier of Boreal Frost, the boosts that create walls now have the same effect as wall spells of equivalent level, making them even more powerful!

Ride the Tsunami, in addition to dealing great damage and having great range, basically allows you to move in the same direction without firing AoO!

Anyway I'm super excited for the Kineticist right now!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I look forward to building a Druid character that has adopted an anathema against using metal tools and weapons, and is very upset that there are all these “imposters” calling themselves druids and using metal but not being stripped of their powers. There is clearly some devilry afoot, but “ it won’t be used to ensorcle me!”


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tactical Drongo wrote:

so centaur and minotaur are going to be new ancestries

do we know anything about possible addition of satyr?

on a different note: any updates on how blasts will work except from that we got mixed elemental ones?

My understanding after the panel is that blasts are essentially just discrete powers in the kineticist chassis, as opposed to a whole separate thing than the rest of the powers you get through feats. So you will get one blast power to start with from a potential couple available to you through your element selection at level 1, and then you can get access to more by picking them as feats.


Paul Watson wrote:
Twiggies wrote:
Good to hear of the feat with the multiple damage types. I wonder what fire's alt damage type would be?
Moar fire!!! Available to goblins only.

Burn It! Probably will be pretty strong for Fire kineticists.

Tactical Drongo wrote:
on a different note: any updates on how blasts will work except from that we got mixed elemental ones?

We just know they will work like cantrips. But in rapid book show we saw that Elemental Blast is 1 or 2 actions so maybe have other things inside.


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Blave wrote:
Being large does not automatically mean more reach. Minotaur seems like an obvious choice for more reach but centaur has a human upper body so I don't think they will have extra reach.

My money would be on reach being an ancestry level feat you could buy. For balance reasons that may not be at level one.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

From the panel we learned that it is not uncommon in Goblin society to define the elemental planes as any 5 nouns that are important to that goblin community, and that these can include things like Food, Sleep, Loot, but almost always also Fire.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Gortle wrote:
Blave wrote:
Being large does not automatically mean more reach. Minotaur seems like an obvious choice for more reach but centaur has a human upper body so I don't think they will have extra reach.
My money would be on reach being an ancestry level feat you could buy. For balance reasons that may not be at level one.

Sayre mentioned in the Discord after that the 2 action blast adds CON to damage. Not sure if there is any more to it than that (doubtful).

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The tidal hands change worries me. 2d6 to 1d8? Kineticist needed buffed, not nerfed into oblivion.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

In the discord It was also mentioned therr is an item that does boostvlinetecist blasts up to +2 and also provides like a 1per day spell thing.


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So, reduced raw damage, but higher chance of critting, like fighters vs. barbarians? Seems fair to me.


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Verzen wrote:
The tidal hands change worries me. 2d6 to 1d8? Kineticist needed buffed, not nerfed into oblivion.

Only initial damage was nerfed. The playtest "heightened" was 1d6 instead of currently 1d8. After level 7 the Impulse becomes stronger than playtest version. In the end of the game (lvl 19) the avg difference ups from 38,5 to 45. It isn't bad for a lvl 1 Impulse.

I didn't expect 2d6 anyway this is the avg damage of blast spells that uses spellslots. Instead they put Overflow in midway between focus spells and strong cantrips. Also many focus spells aren't so good as this. Also the removal of Manipulate put it in a situation where many cones spells don't have.

In summary, it's technically a Burning Hands of water with 2 cones of 15ft instead of 1, or one of 30ft, that doesn't waste daily resources and you can use melee without fear, but that does 75% of the damage .


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Wait, can you blast as a kineticist while tied up? If so, that's pretty sick. I hope they do something similar for the shifter's transformations.


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Wait, can you blast as a kineticist while tied up? If so, that's pretty sick. I hope they do something similar for the shifter's transformations.

As far as you're implying, yes! Unless there's some special note about it, they've removed the manipulate trait from Impulses (they're now shown separately on a few Impulses only), so nothing stops you from literally "breath water out of your mouth". hahahaha


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well we really don't know that at this point, have to wait and see


Some errata (I got too excited):

YuriP wrote:
In general, they solved the damage problem in the playtests very well. Call the Hurricane is as good as a tier 8 fireball, it just doesn't progress as well. But let's face it for a skill with unlimited uses that doesn't have the Manipulate trait, that's great!

Its spell level/rank 4 fireball.

YuriP wrote:
From what I've seen on Barrier of Boreal Frost, the boosts that create walls now have the same effect as wall spells of equivalent level, making them even more powerful!

Barrier of Boreal Frost basically didn't change anything from playtest. It just allows more than one wall at same time now but it's difficult if not impossible once that is a 3-action overflow impulse.

YuriP wrote:
Ride the Tsunami, in addition to dealing great damage and having great range, basically allows you to move in the same direction without firing AoO!

It was an error from my part Ride the Tsunami allows Swim action that has move trait in it. So you trigger AoO normally you just may "cast" this impulse without trigger AoO (no manipulate trait).


I am so waiting to rebuild a half sea elf water bender that I had in PFS 1e, he was really fun!


I would hope that in the book with centaurs they would add Louis Loza's bunny people!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Regarding Kineticist power level, I'm trying to avoid pessimism here and part of what I'm holding onto is that they have marked Water as one of the low "destruction" elements and so there may be better blaster options.

That said, let's take a look at Tidal Hands compared to Electric Arc. Let's also assume that Tidal Hands hits 2 enemies on average (it is very possible to get more, but I think hitting 2 on average is realistic). As such, we can look at the per enemy damage to make this easier.

Lvl 1 average damage:
- EA = 6.5 (1d4+4)
- TH = 4.5 (1d8)

Lvl 3 average damage:
- EA = 8.5 (2d4+4)
- TH = 9 (2d8)

Lvl 7 average damage:
- EA = 14 (4d4+4)
- TH = 18 (4d8)

Lvl 15 average damage:
- EA = 25 (8d4+5)
- TH = 36 (8d8)

Ok, so from lvl 3 on the Tidal Hands will slightly out damage Electric Arc, and this gap widens from then on. Though the floor is much lower for TH than it is for EA (lvl 3 EA floor is 6 damage while TH is 2 damage). That's fair I suppose and if that was the end of it then I'd be ok. However, lets look at a few other things.

EA - Target any two enemies within 30 feet of you (so the enemies could be 60 feet away from each other)
TH - One 30ft cone or two 15ft cone.

TH can potentially get more enemies, however positioning becomes much harder to execute. That nearly equals itself out on pro/con I suppose (though personally I'd give slight edge to EA)

Alright, now lets look at action economy:

- EA = two actions every time it is used
- TH = 2 actions for every use, plus 1 "reload" style action to use ANY impulse due to the Overflow trait

Finally, let's look at cost:

- EA = any Primal or Arcane caster can get it naturally. Or a number of Ancestry choices can grant it easily enough. Or there is a Spellheart to get it as well.
- TH = costs a class feat for the Kineticist

The cost of a class feat to get it is a steep one compared to how easy EA is to get.

--------
Overall, Tidal Hands isn't horrible. However when compared to Electric Arc wholistically I'm not that impressed. Of course, I'm still holding to the idea that Water isn't meant to have big damage and so will hold out hope for things like Fire and Metal who are rated much higher on the destruction scale.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Trying to compare anything to cantrips right now is going to be tricky because it sounds like spells as a whole are getting a pretty big tune up. It will be more than names changing.


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Electric Arc may not exist once Player Core comes out.


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+ Some people make a character that they think is fun to play and work their new abilities into their stories and stuff.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Xenocrat wrote:
Electric Arc may not exist once Player Core comes out.

Don't count on it. After hearing about the spoiled Frost cantrip it sounds like they are trying to bring other cantrips to its level (though by adding effects rather than straight damage).

Based on current evidence it is at least as good (though I'd say better considering it is not remotely OGL) a chance it will stay. Comparing to it os a legit bassis of comparing power levels until we find out otherwise.


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Invictus Fatum wrote:

Regarding Kineticist power level, I'm trying to avoid pessimism here and part of what I'm holding onto is that they have marked Water as one of the low "destruction" elements and so there may be better blaster options.

That said, let's take a look at Tidal Hands compared to Electric Arc. Let's also assume that Tidal Hands hits 2 enemies on average (it is very possible to get more, but I think hitting 2 on average is realistic). As such, we can look at the per enemy damage to make this easier.

Lvl 1 average damage:
- EA = 6.5 (1d4+4)
- TH = 4.5 (1d8)

Lvl 3 average damage:
- EA = 8.5 (2d4+4)
- TH = 9 (2d8)

Lvl 7 average damage:
- EA = 14 (4d4+4)
- TH = 18 (4d8)

Lvl 15 average damage:
- EA = 25 (8d4+5)
- TH = 36 (8d8)

Ok, so from lvl 3 on the Tidal Hands will slightly out damage Electric Arc, and this gap widens from then on. Though the floor is much lower for TH than it is for EA (lvl 3 EA floor is 6 damage while TH is 2 damage). That's fair I suppose and if that was the end of it then I'd be ok. However, lets look at a few other things.

EA - Target any two enemies within 30 feet of you (so the enemies could be 60 feet away from each other)
TH - One 30ft cone or two 15ft cone.

TH can potentially get more enemies, however positioning becomes much harder to execute. That nearly equals itself out on pro/con I suppose (though personally I'd give slight edge to EA)

Alright, now lets look at action economy:

- EA = two actions every time it is used
- TH = 2 actions for every use, plus 1 "reload" style action to use ANY impulse due to the Overflow trait

Finally, let's look at cost:

- EA = any Primal or Arcane caster can get it naturally. Or a number of Ancestry choices can grant it easily enough. Or there is a Spellheart to get it as well.
- TH = costs a class feat for the Kineticist

The cost of a class feat to get it is a steep one compared to how easy EA is to get.

--------
Overall, Tidal Hands isn't horrible. However when compared to Electric Arc wholistically...

IMO still OK for a lvl 1 feat.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
keftiu wrote:
I'm excited for my Medium Centaurs and Minotaurs,

Is Howl of the Wild coming soon?

I thought, it being just announced, this would be a book for 2026 or something...

Guess I need to go watch this Primal stream.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Tactical Drongo wrote:
do we know anything about possible addition of satyr?

Considering that in PF2E Satyr are male only... they need to put 'Faun' back into Pathfinder before they make THAT an ancestry.

It is however, my number one ask - to get a Faun ancestry.

Dark Archive

Kineticist was the only playtest I had to skip. Can anyone ELI5 what the class proficiency scaling will be.

From the post playtest blog post it sounds like its a con based 'caster' with hit/DC based off con. Do we know if that means it will be a L7/15/19 E/M/L caster chassis progression or like a martial E/M at L5/13 or something else?

pixierose above is saying discord suggested we can get up to a +2 item bonus (to hit and spell DC?). Is that true/confirmed from a Paizo representative? Do we know what levels those come online at?

One of the most repeated questions in the panel was asking for the 'what is it' clarification and they sort of 'pseudo addressed it' by mostly say look at the blog post. But even still there seem to be people saying or thinking it is a 'martial'.


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arcady wrote:
keftiu wrote:
I'm excited for my Medium Centaurs and Minotaurs,

Is Howl of the Wild coming soon?

I thought, it being just announced, this would be a book for 2026 or something...

Guess I need to go watch this Primal stream.

I believe it's coming in 2024.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Red Griffyn wrote:

Kineticist was the only playtest I had to skip. Can anyone ELI5 what the class proficiency scaling will be.

From the post playtest blog post it sounds like its a con based 'caster' with hit/DC based off con. Do we know if that means it will be a L7/15/19 E/M/L caster chassis progression or like a martial E/M at L5/13 or something else?

pixierose above is saying discord suggested we can get up to a +2 item bonus (to hit and spell DC?). Is that true/confirmed from a Paizo representative? Do we know what levels those come online at?

One of the most repeated questions in the panel was asking for the 'what is it' clarification and they sort of 'pseudo addressed it' by mostly say look at the blog post. But even still there seem to be people saying or thinking it is a 'martial'.

The up to +2 item was specifically spoiled by Sayre so it is official. Whether there is also a +1 version is unknown. I also asked the items level and didn't get an answer, but based on similar items I'd say between 10 & 12.

We don't know proficiency numbers, but Sayre said they get to Legendary Class DC. Whether that means it is based on caster progression, martial progression, or a unuique progression is unknown.

If I were to guess, there is a +1 item at lvl 5 and the Class DC progresses at caster progression.


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Red Griffyn wrote:
From the post playtest blog post it sounds like its a con based 'caster' with hit/DC based off con. Do we know if that means it will be a L7/15/19 E/M/L caster chassis progression or like a martial E/M at L5/13 or something else?

During playtest it was E7/M13 with Elemental Blast being a "weapon" attack with elements working like a mix of elemental ranged and melee weapon with each element working with different ranges, dices sizes and traits. At same time the class DC (used by many Impulses (the "spellcasting" variant for kineticists) was E9/M17. But after the playtest survey with many complains about damage, impulse DC progression, AoO triggers and the utility of Con the Logan said in the blog that this is going to change to be more close to attack cantrip (was also confirmed during the panel) and take focus in class DC only. Now with Sayre saying that the class goes to Legendary Class DC probably will be something closer to what spellcasters get.


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I still think that making the blasts weapons would have been the way to go but I am curious about the pseudo cantrips

Dark Archive

Invictus Fatum wrote:

The up to +2 item was specifically spoiled by Sayre so it is official. Whether there is also a +1 version is unknown. I also asked the items level and didn't get an answer, but based on similar items I'd say between 10 & 12.

We don't know proficiency numbers, but Sayre said they get to Legendary Class DC. Whether that means it is based on caster progression, martial progression, or a unuique progression is unknown.

If I were to guess, there is a +1 item at lvl 5 and the Class DC progresses at caster progression.

"YuriP wrote:
During playtest it was E7/M13 with Elemental Blast being a "weapon" attack with elements working like a mix of elemental ranged and melee weapon with each element working with different ranges, dices sizes and traits. At same time the class DC (used by many Impulses (the "spellcasting" variant for kineticists) was E9/M17. But after the playtest survey with many complains about damage, impulse DC progression, AoO triggers and the utility of Con the Logan said in the blog that this is going to change to be more close to attack cantrip (was also confirmed during the panel) and take focus in class DC only. Now with Sayre saying that the class goes to Legendary Class DC probably will be something closer to what spellcasters get.

Much appreciated! If it is a caster hit/dc progression with a +1/+2 item bonus to hit it will test one of those things folks have been asking for on other casters. Could be really interesting! I hope we get some more class previews from the usual run of youtubers!


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Should note that right after Tidal Hands we see Winter's Clutch, which is not an overflow. 2d4 at level 1 and scales +1d4. It's slightly behind the damage of a standard cantrip... but a 10' burst with 60' range should also allow for hitting 2+ enemies pretty often, and it has a bonus effect of making that area difficult terrain (sure, it's a minor effect, but)

So we have two level 1 blasts. Tidal Hands hurts more in the long run and has a bigger aoe, Winter's Clutch isn't overflow and does energy damage. I think the math probably all works out in the long run here, considering the relative lack of resource expenditure.


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Winter's Clutch is basically a Scatter Scree with less initial minimum damage but twice the range and 6x more area. Depending on the situation of its use, it can hit much more than 2 targets, being an interesting AoE to combine with the 1-action Elemental Blast (which we still need to see how it will be, as it also has a 2-action version , but I've heard somewhere that it's the difference whether or not he uses the Con bonus on damage).


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Yeah, and I think that's perfectly fair overall. Especially if it works out that the extra action is for adding Con to damage (which is interesting - very useful early on and naturally becomes less valuable over time, the same as Str on weapons). It looks like blasts upgrade every 4 levels but I can't make out the full text in that picture (presumably just adds a die).


Paul Watson wrote:
Twiggies wrote:
Good to hear of the feat with the multiple damage types. I wonder what fire's alt damage type would be?
Moar fire!!! Available to goblins only.

I know you joke but man I REALLY hope they toss a bone to ifrit for that lol. Especially because I worry they won't address the fact that the obvious thematic combo of Ifrit + Fire Kineticist is probably going to be inefficient in such a way that it's just gonna bug me (wasting ifrit's fire resistance)

grrr I'm so excited!
*refreshes the rage of elements page again*


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What we really need is a hero who can somehow make those few pages Logan held up readable. I love what we've seen of water and would love to get more info. Just the names of the metal impulses we can see sound amazing.


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I still want to know if there'll be a feat or anything to add elemental damage to your unarmed/weapons attacks. Even if it's not the most optimized option, I'd still like to be able to set my character's sword or claws on fire, for the drama if nothing else.

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