Forced to think a certain way about someone because of alignment… what is PFS ruling on this?

[CaptainRelyk]

I know alignment won’t matter anymore soon but I feel this needs to be clarified

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=95

According to these rules, “Chaotic characters believe that lawful characters are too inflexible to judge each situation by its own merits or take advantage of opportunities, while lawful characters believe that chaotic characters are irresponsible and flighty”

Are we truly forced to have our chaotic characters believe lawful characters are inflexible or forced to have our lawful characters believe chaotic characters are flighty?

I could see a lawful good paladin character disagreeing on a couple things with a chaotic good liberator but otherwise believes the liberator to be a champion of good like them and see them as responsible

Why couldn’t a Paladin believe a liberator is responsible?

The rules are clear as day that your character is forced to think a certain way about a lawful character if their chaotic or forced to think a certain way about chaotic characters if they are lawful

But no good GM would force your character to think a certain way because of this

But this is PFS, where GMs have to follow the rules to a T

So what is the ruling? Is my lawful character forever forced to think chaotic characters are irresponsible and flighty?

[Keirine, Human Rogue]

CaptainRelyk wrote:

I know alignment won’t matter anymore soon but I feel this needs to be clarified

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=95

According to these rules, “Chaotic characters believe that lawful characters are too inflexible to judge each situation by its own merits or take advantage of opportunities, while lawful characters believe that chaotic characters are irresponsible and flighty”

I'm not sure if things actually need to be clarified but okay.

CaptainRelyk wrote:

Are we truly forced to have our chaotic characters believe lawful characters are inflexible or forced to have our lawful characters believe chaotic characters are flighty?

No.

CaptainRelyk wrote:

I could see a lawful good paladin character disagreeing on a couple things with a chaotic good liberator but otherwise believes the liberator to be a champion of good like them and see them as responsible

Why couldn’t a Paladin believe a liberator is responsible?

There's nothing stopping that. At all.

CaptainRelyk wrote:

The rules are clear as day that your character is forced to think a certain way about a lawful character if their chaotic or forced to think a certain way about chaotic characters if they are lawful

If the rules are clear as day, why did you ask this question? I'm confused. Also, the rules are not clear as day. You don't have to do that. It's a simple quick generalization to aid in developing your character. Just like not all fighters are brawny muscleheads who only swing swords, and not all rogues are orphans with tragic backstories.

CaptainRelyk wrote:

But no good GM would force your character to think a certain way because of this

Answering your own question here again. Not sure what you're looking for?

CaptainRelyk wrote:

But this is PFS, where GMs have to follow the rules to a T

So what is the ruling? Is my lawful character forever forced to think chaotic characters are irresponsible and flighty?

No. Those are simply jumping off points, generalizations to begin a thought process. You can start from there and develop whatever story you want for your character, within reason.

I've noticed that you're very literal, and you seem to enjoy having every single detail and minutiae spelled out for you. That is impractical. It isn't possible for a book or a website or anything to cover every possible permutation of thoughts, moods, desires, etc. so we use shorthands and generalizations. Alignment is one such shorthand. A generalization that is used as a starting point to develop your character's world view. But 6 lawful good characters can each look at 6 different chaotic good characters and have completely separate ideas about each of them. It will depend on the player, the character, the phase of the moon, how much water the player has had to drink in the past hour, if they are feeling peckish, and a trillion other small variations that are too numerous to count.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

At most levels of play, your character is likely not to know the alignment of another character, even player characters.

And these are rather broad generalizations, I would not worry about it at all.

GMs are very unlikely to even bother to tell you how your character should feel about another character outside the use of certain spells.

I did not love the "But no good GM would force your character to think a certain way because of this" part of your post but in general, considering many of the issues you bring to the forum.

Pretty much nobody cares, how your character is supposed to feel regarding another character. This might all seem very confusing if you just read the rules like that.

There are obviously exceptions if your character has a sort of code (like a champion) but even those are very much relaxed in org play.

GMs in org play are supposed to follow the rules to the best of their ability, but there are always going to be aspects where table variation and individual GM understanding are going to be different.

The rules say that a Liberator has to be CG, but that does not mean that any liberator is yelling that they are one, or that in-world the term liberator is even used for this flavor of a champion. Champions of Calistria and Shelyn likely do have different names for that.

My suggestion would be to just play a session or two with a pregen, where you are not so exceedingly attached to every minute detail of your character, and what unlikely occurrence might or might not happen.

Lastly.. this is not an organized play-specific question, you likely just want some sort of binding ruling for something that is subject to table variation, and that is not generally what org play does.

[Ravien999]

Alignment is meant to be descriptive not prescriptive.

Your inability to understand that after multiple conversations shows that the inflexible one here is you, not Society.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Let's give a recent example from my game last Wednesday.

I was playing Big Jig, my CG Sprite Thaumaturge with maximised Thievery and a sketchy fey understanding of personal property alongside Reggie, a LG Human Paladin of Abadar (the god with the most respect for property laws). We had a blast.

Big Jig: "We get to ride in a wagon! Do we get to keep the wagon afterwards? I could be a great driver."

Reggie: "No, this not our wagon."

Big Jig: "Are you sure? She's not taking very good care of it. Maybe I should oil the wheels and clean it."

Reggie: "Oh that's good... Oiling the wheels and cleaning it would be a nice gesture to our--- What are you doing?"

Big Jig: "Stroking my wagon now that it's all clean..."

Reggie: "IT'S NOT OUR WAGON!"

Big Jig: "Not your wagon, maybe..."

Our two players were having a blast playing these two characters who were bickering in character over this silly wagon but we saved each other multiple times in battle, completed our mission and were the best of comrades. Also we both had trouble not laughing during these exchanges.

Treat alignment as a gentle guideline for roleplay rather than a rigid set of rules. Remember that even more important than alignment is having fun. We're all supposed to Explore, Cooperate, Report. The cooperation is one of the most important parts.

[Lesrek]

CaptainRelyk wrote:

But this is PFS, where GMs have to follow the rules to a T

You keep saying this and venture officers keep telling you that you are mistaken with how inflexible you perceive society play to be. At some point you need to realize that it isn't society that is the problem, but how you view it. And again, you keep making these grand assumptions without ever having played a society game. Please, I am asking you to stop commenting on society play and what it is like until you actually have some experience with it.

Edit: Also, are you actually interested in society play? Just today another beginner game was posted on RfC and yet again, you did not sign up for it. The vibe I am getting is that you don't actually want to play society, you just want to use it as an excuse to complain about something. That has been your most consistent interaction with society as a program.

[Project: J-ko]

To quote a legendary Pirate Captain, "The code is more like guidelines."

I feel like keeping that in the back of your head will help a lot with an understanding of both the rules, and of the table variance you would see should you sit at a PFS table.

[BretI]

There is no official Myers-Briggs test for character alignment. Alignment is a gross simplification of a character’s morals. Morals are very complicated. As others have said, it is seldom that alignment even comes up in Org Play. The obvious exception is alignment damage.

A GM should not be telling players they need to disagree on something — quite the opposite in most cases. Even the most chaotic of characters is still a Pathfinder / Starfinder who has agreed to cooperate with the group in completing a mission.

[CaptainRelyk]

Lesrek wrote:

CaptainRelyk wrote:

But this is PFS, where GMs have to follow the rules to a T

You keep saying this and venture officers keep telling you that you are mistaken with how inflexible you perceive society play to be. At some point you need to realize that it isn't society that is the problem, but how you view it. And again, you keep making these grand assumptions without ever having played a society game. Please, I am asking you to stop commenting on society play and what it is like until you actually have some experience with it.

Edit: Also, are you actually interested in society play? Just today another beginner game was posted on RfC and yet again, you did not sign up for it. The vibe I am getting is that you don't actually want to play society, you just want to use it as an excuse to complain about something. That has been your most consistent interaction with society as a program.

I was actually wanting to join that game but I didn’t have a character ready

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Let's help you get a character ready! Do you need help building them? I'm not sure how to format it for PBD, but I am certain we can help you get it built.

[umopapisdnupsidedown]

CaptainRelyk wrote:

Lesrek wrote:

You keep saying this and venture officers keep telling you that you are mistaken with how inflexible you perceive society play to be. At some point you need to realize that it isn't society that is the problem, but how you view it. And again, you keep making these grand assumptions without ever having played a society game. Please, I am asking you to stop commenting on society play and what it is like until you actually have some experience with it.

Edit: Also, are you actually interested in society play? Just today another beginner game was posted on RfC and yet again, you did not sign up for it. The vibe I am getting is that you don't actually want to play society, you just want to use it as an excuse to complain about something. That has been your most consistent interaction with society as a program.

I was actually wanting to join that game but I didn’t have a character ready

If you're interested in playing, I've started running PbD games on Cayden's Keg Discord and was thinking of giving Bounty #8 another go. It's not my favorite bounty but it's probably my second favorite. And Bounties are a low-stakes introduction.

You're welcome to join if you want. I just started running another one but I'm happy to run one just for you, if you want to give it a try.

[Rysky]

CaptainRelyk wrote:

and that there is a “you have to play PFS to earn the right to play in a non-PFS pbp” culture that has formed online

That is not a thing.

CaptainRelyk wrote:

People have kept telling me that I need to play in PFS PBPs if I want to join a non-PFS pbp where I can play what I actually want to play,

I highly doubt this.

[Gisher]

Quote:

...and also I don’t want to wait for YEARS just so I can play a lizardfolk investigator or a tiefling warpriest due to most of the uncommon ancestries being locked being ACP

People already explained to you that new players get 80 ACP to spend which means that you could play a Lizardfolk (40 ACP) Investigator or a Tiefling (80 ACP) Warpriest right away.

So why are you still complaining about having to "wait for YEARS?"

[Sebastian Hirsch]

Rysky wrote:

CaptainRelyk wrote:

and that there is a “you have to play PFS to earn the right to play in a non-PFS pbp” culture that has formed online

That is not a thing.

CaptainRelyk wrote:

People have kept telling me that I need to play in PFS PBPs if I want to join a non-PFS pbp where I can play what I actually want to play,

I highly doubt this.

I suspect I know where that is coming from, a lot of people are prone to invite people they have already played with in org play scenarios into their home game adventure paths games etc.

It's as always mischaracterized, after all in this context playing org play games is just a good vector to get exposed to other players before starting anything that is a longer commitment.

Frankly speaking, it boils down to "Many people enjoy inviting those that they like and play well together, and org play is a good way to hang out for a short time" (though pbp is different).

Unfortunately for OP, it is not really possible to have a uniform experience in org play, it gets rather close but different tables with different groups of players and GMs have different sensibilities, interests in RP duration, and understandings of rules...

Even more unfortunately, if one approaches org play from the position of feeling forced and compromising, it's not really a great starting point, and looking at previous posts in a bunch of places, it seems like the structure and setup of org play are not a great fort for what they are searching for.

[umopapisdnupsidedown]

CaptainRelyk wrote:

umopapisdnupsidedown wrote:

You're welcome to join if you want. I just started running another one but I'm happy to run one just for you, if you want to give it a try.

I’m temporarily banned from Cayden and other discord PFS places due to what I’ve said in these forums about PFS

Oh. Well in that case I guess I can't offer a PbD game for you then, until you get un-banned. You're welcome to join a game though, once that gets cleared up. I wouldn't want to force you to play PFS if you don't want to, but if you do, great.

For my part, I like both playing and GMing PFS, so that's what I do. I don't get paid to GM, it's a volunteer gig, so I offer what I want to offer. And of course I want players to enjoy the game I offer, just as I want to enjoy the experience (the GM is a player too).

So I'll just be over here enjoying the game if anyone needs me.

[Blake's Tiger]

CaptainRelyk wrote:

Lesrek wrote:

Also, are you actually interested in society play? Just today another beginner game was posted on RfC and yet again, you did not sign up for it. The vibe I am getting is that you don't actually want to play society, you just want to use it as an excuse to complain about something. That has been your most consistent interaction with society as a program.

Though to be honest, I’m mostly NOT interested in PFS

I’m kind of annoyed that almost all PBPs are PFS, and that there is a “you have to play PFS to earn the right to play in a non-PFS pbp” culture that has formed online

Go here instead, then, rather than PFS forums.

[Lady Ladile]

Blake's Tiger wrote:

CaptainRelyk wrote:

Lesrek wrote:

Also, are you actually interested in society play? Just today another beginner game was posted on RfC and yet again, you did not sign up for it. The vibe I am getting is that you don't actually want to play society, you just want to use it as an excuse to complain about something. That has been your most consistent interaction with society as a program.

Though to be honest, I’m mostly NOT interested in PFS

I’m kind of annoyed that almost all PBPs are PFS, and that there is a “you have to play PFS to earn the right to play in a non-PFS pbp” culture that has formed online

Go here instead, then, rather than PFS forums.

Adding on to the above, I've *personally* never seen any games dictate that you must have played PFS PbP before being eligible to join a non-PFS PbP game.

What I *have* seen, and recommended myself, is that people who are looking to try PbP for the first time either try a PFS game or a module, because those are generally less of a time commitment than a homebrew or Adventure Path is. That way, if it turns out that PbP format is not to one's liking, it's much easier to bow out of the game with a minimum of fuss for everyone involved.

[Ravien999]

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

CaptainRelyk wrote:

and that there is a “you have to play PFS to earn the right to play in a non-PFS pbp” culture that has formed online

CaptainRelyk wrote:

People have kept telling me that I need to play in PFS PBPs if I want to join a non-PFS pbp where I can play what I actually want to play,

I suspect I know where that is coming from, a lot of people are prone to invite people they have already played with in org play scenarios into their home game adventure paths games etc.

This is exactly it. People like to play with people they know are reliable and decent people. Who wants to invite some nobody who they've never met before for a multi-year commitment that is a PbP AP?

And per Relyk's own confessions

Captain Relyk wrote:

I did find a non-PFS pbp, but there are signs it’s going to fall apart instantly among other issues

This is exactly why some GMs who run PFS choose to prefer people who are also a part of the community. After all - your impressions in this public setting tell people what they need to know about you.

And yeah, AcP might be a limiter for some Ancestries in PFS

But in a home game, they might be arbitrarily banned for no reason! You don't get to "buy" your way into good graces, as you're so commonly known to do.

[Ravien999]

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

Let's help you get a character ready! Do you need help building them? I'm not sure how to format it for PBD, but I am certain we can help you get it built.

Hey Hilary! Nothing fancy here - the most important is just being able to upload your character sheet and chronicles to the discord channel if needed. Many people use pathbuilder share links, wanderers guide share links, or google drive hosted PDFs, but some just upload directly to drive.

The only difference in formatting for PbD is the actual gameplay - all the other formatting is the same - your token will usually be on a Google Sheet or a Tableplop table in my experience, so its mostly just chat formatting :)

[TOZ]

CaptainRelyk wrote:

People have kept telling me that I need to play in PFS PBPs if I want to join a non-PFS pbp where I can play what I actually want to play,

Who are these people and why are you listening to them?

[Rysky]

In PFS most likely, in other games not an issue.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Captain Relyk wrote:

Though to be honest, I’m mostly NOT interested in PFS.

Hmm smiles, waves, and leaves the thread.

I am going to hide this thread and suggest that others do the same.

[GM OfAnything]

So your options are either to apply to a recruiting campaign (which can be a bit of a gamble, but sometimes it pays off), or you can play PFS games and find a group you like to play the kind of campaign you want to play.

Many GMs/campaigns have rules for what is allowed at their tables. In organized play, you have the ability to earn an exception to the rules after you've played a bit and learned some more.

In any case, the best way to find a game you enjoy is to be a player who people want to play with. Consider your words and actions. Would you want to play with you?

[Gisher]

CaptainRelyk wrote:

Gisher wrote:

Quote:

...and also I don’t want to wait for YEARS just so I can play a lizardfolk investigator or a tiefling warpriest due to most of the uncommon ancestries being locked being ACP

People already explained to you that new players get 80 ACP to spend which means that you could play a Lizardfolk (40 ACP) Investigator or a Tiefling (80 ACP) Warpriest right away.

So why are you still complaining about having to "wait for YEARS?"

At this moment in time I can only really do PBP games, which take a bit to complete

If I spend 80 ACP for my tiefling character, it’ll take a long time to get to enough ACP to get an uncommon ancestry for another character like lizardfolk

That's irrelevant. You would be able to play the Teifling character right away which is what you said you wouldn't be able to do.

Every time anyone confronts you with contradictory facts you either flip-flop your position or you move the goalposts.

You don't ever seem to want to have a real discussion. Instead your goal seems to be to complain endlessly about everything Pathfinder related.

Maybe you should just find a different game.

I'm going to follow HMM's advice now, and I think I'll mute the many, many other complaint threads that you've started as well.

[Dancing Wind]

CaptainRelyk wrote:

If I’m doing only two PBPs at a time it’ll be a long time before I can get another uncommon ancestry character, probably even years

Sweetheart, so far you haven't even managed to build a character for a single game, much less two.

How about saving your worries about the future until that future actually arrives. Start by accepting the invitations that people have repeatedly offered you to run a game just for you.

Although, when you say, "Though to be honest, I’m mostly NOT interested in PFS". you have disinvited yourself from almost every game anyone has offered you. Which is fine, but you need to recognize that it's your choices that are creating the difficulty, not other players, GMs, and especially not PFS as a whole.

You have created such a strict, tight rule-set for what you are willing to do in order to play a PF2 game that you've drawn a circle around yourself that most people who play ttrpgs don't fit in.

Until you are willing to play with a much more diverse group of people, you are are not going to get invited to games with people who don't have such strict rules.

And, after months of posting multiple threads, you've created quite a reputation for nit-picking, being argumentative, and being unable to accommodate to other viewpoints.

That will affect whether other people think it would be fun to play with you. If you want to have fun with other people, you have to make it fun for them too.

[andreww]

CaptainRelyk wrote:

But back to the feeling forced thing, in what world is feeling forced and having to compromise and get through a game I despise and hate just to HOPEFULLY find a non-PFS game that I will actually enjoy a good thing?

Those are some pretty strong words for a game you have literally never played.

[TriOmegaZero]

Then please go find a game you will enjoy.

I recommend Spirit Island.

[Lesrek]

Then the answer is really quite simple. Stop engaging with society play as it is clear you have no interest in actually participating. At this point, the most logical conclusion is that you are purposely being a bad actor towards society with no interest in actually participating. If that is the case, move on. If that isn't the case, you are doing everything in your power to drive away all the people who are actively trying to help you while also setting such a bad precedent of your behavior that your ability to get non-society games is rapidly dwindling. I am not sure what you actually want to get out of your online presence but your actions resemble a troll and a troublemaker more than someone who actually wants to play the game with good intentions.

[umopapisdnupsidedown]

CaptainRelyk wrote:

umopapisdnupsidedown wrote:

If you're interested in playing, I've started running PbD games on Cayden's Keg Discord and was thinking of giving Bounty #8 another go. It's not my favorite bounty but it's probably my second favorite. And Bounties are a low-stakes introduction.

You're welcome to join if you want. I just started running another one but I'm happy to run one just for you, if you want to give it a try.

I have a question about your Cayden games

Ask away.

[umopapisdnupsidedown]

CaptainRelyk wrote:

How much do you allow RP in your games? Would you allow us to have detailed character introductions or other things?

Like there’s this GM in RFC called Sebastian (who made me feel a little better about doing PFS, even though I still feel forced into PFS and not feeling completely sure about it yet) and according to their words they are a “ huge proponent of spending some more time introductions, after players have started, I tend to ask deeper probing questions, to encourage them to go a bit deeper and explore their characters, things like:
- "The Grand Lodge has files on your character, please give me 2 positives and 1 negative entry Old Muttonchops was written in your file"
- "What's your ideal mission, the one you never seem to get, yet always want. Do you want to be sent to a fancy dress party, into the unclaimed wilderness or to other mysterious places?"
- "Your character has been in the Society for quite a bit, how have their experiences shaped them, are they happy with their recent missions? What accomplishment are they most proud of?"
...there are others, but my main approach is to motivate players to think about aspects of their character that they have not been considering.“

While I’m sure you don’t do anything like Sebastian, I’m wondering if for games I play in with you, you could have room for detailed introductions or general role play outside of combat and things?

As long as everyone is having fun and the pace isn't bothering anyone, I just let it take its course. The game I recently started has been going for around 3 days maybe, and while we did get off to a slow start for RL reasons, we are only just starting to get out of the introductory RP. I've been enjoying their conversations.

So the answer is, yes. I'm relatively new to it but I find that PbP/PbD is very conducive to RP. I recently played a PFS scenario with a central influence encounter via PbD, and it was awesome. Others who played in that game also said that influence encounters are really enjoyable via PbD. We had a great time.

I "allow" as much RP as the players want in my games, but it's a bit of a delicate balance because I'm new to it so I'm still trying to figure out pacing. I also don't yet know most of the players so I don't yet know their styles or what they enjoy.

[Super Zero]

You are not being forced to do anything. You are being given options. It is the very exact opposite of being forced.

Rysky wrote:

CaptainRelyk wrote:

and that there is a “you have to play PFS to earn the right to play in a non-PFS pbp” culture that has formed online

That is not a thing.

CaptainRelyk wrote:

People have kept telling me that I need to play in PFS PBPs if I want to join a non-PFS pbp where I can play what I actually want to play,

I highly doubt this.

It's more common on this forum, where most of the pbp is PFS. The "series of one-shots" format is nice for pbp.

And other forums have more system variety, so fewer PF2 games.

There's a truish core there, but it's a highly dramatic take on it.

(And honestly "people" is a big improvement on the name dropping.)

[umopapisdnupsidedown]

I should also say that in my VTT games (and so far in my PbD games) I tend to limit my table size. This is because I like the additional time this gives us to RP. Six-person tables are a bit of a zoo for me, so I prefer smaller tables to give more time for RP.

For PbP/PbD, language skill is sometimes another factor to consider when RPing. People are playing asynchronously in the same game from all over the world, and sometimes you're just not going to get a dissertation or a novel out of some players because it's not super easy for them to write that much in English.

But that's fine, too. Takes all kinds.

[umopapisdnupsidedown]

CaptainRelyk wrote:

Alright, maybe

But I still feel forced to play PFS instead of coming to PFS with genuine interest

Forced to deal with ACP instead of being allowed to play an uncommon ancestry in a non-PFS game or even allowed to use that battlezoo dragons book that is supposedly popular yet I can’t find a place to use it, since a lot of people only recruit for non-PFS games in PFS as others have said

How can we fix this?

You can GM your own games and do whatever you want in them. That's what it comes down to. If you're looking to play in others' games that they are offering, well, their house, their rules.

I don't recommend going to someone else's house and dictating to them what they will cook for you to eat.

[umopapisdnupsidedown]

Maybe if you get a group going you can do a GM exchange or something. As a forever GM, I feel the pain of not being able to play my characters as much as I would like. But it makes me all the more grateful when I do get to play.

And being involved in the community got me invited to a home campaign for an AP that I want to play, so...Hooray, now I get to play one of my characters. And the GM said "Core Rulebook plus AP only," so I'm glad I had a character that fit who I wanted to play that AP with. His house, his rules, after all.

[Blake's Tiger]

CaptainRelyk wrote:

How can we fix this?

Here's a small dose of radical candor:

You can fix it by looking for a non-PFS game that does not require a demonstrable PbP/D track record in their recruitment. I linked the general recruiting forum earlier. That is the place to look for home games, homebrew, and generally non-PFS games. You'll even find D&D 5e games there.

Search patiently for what you actually want to play and do not torture yourself by trying to fit into a game whose rules you, and I quote you, "despise and hate." It will benefit you in no way to try to force yourself to play such a game. It's not vegetables. You don't have to eat it.

[Super Zero]

There are dedicated pbp sites, like rpol.net and myth-weavers.com

I used to do all my pbp on rpol, though I haven't been on there much in a while.

Though as those sites aren't dedicated to one game or publisher, sometimes you have to wait for the game you want.

[Dancing Wind]

CaptainRelyk wrote:

As someone who often commissions art for my characters (or use art I find online), I am extremely hesitant to play in these forums. From the looks of things, we are unable to upload our own art for our character Aliases and are forced to use one of the images provided in the website

You are not "forced" to use any art at all. Notice there is no art associated with my post.

You cannot upload any images to this website, neither as an icon nor as part of a post.

So you have choices: any of the Paizo-owned images (that come from the talented artists hired to illustrate Paizo publications) or you can forego art entirely. All of your choices on the site are from previously-published Paizo materials, so it's commissioned art at an extremely professional level.