breithauptclan |
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First, if you are using a finesse weapon, you could make your Aid attempt using your dex-based attack roll.
From there, for the mechanics, it just matters on what your GM is willing to allow. Intimidate, Deception, or even Performance could be possible. Athletics or maybe Acrobatics could work. Possibly even thievery if you can come up with some way of justifying it.
And I think that is more what you are asking about. What are some creative justifications for using these skills.
Intimidate or Deception would be when you startle the enemy to try and distract them from the real attack - very similar to the Feint action.
Performance could be similar, or could be something like a shrill whistle that causes them to flinch.
Athletics or Acrobatics would be more like a combat maneuver - similar to the PF1 Dirty Trick.
If you have Spiritual Weapon being sustained, I would let you use that for an Aid check. That one is a minor stretch since I think Aid for an ally's attack is supposed to be melee range only unless you have a feat that lets you do it with a ranged weapon.
If you have Prestidigitation I might even be convinced to let you use that - paying the two action casting time with the one action in preparing to Aid and the reaction in doing the Aid. Then make a spell attack roll for your Aid check. But that one is quite a bit of a stretch and a houserule.
gesalt |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One for All is right there for the taking with swashbuckler archetype. Ask your gm if you can't use those other skills with it instead (threats instead of encouragement, lies instead of genuine encouragement).
Errenor |
That one is a minor stretch since I think Aid for an ally's attack is supposed to be melee range only unless you have a feat that lets you do it with a ranged weapon.
There's nothing about range in the action, I'm pretty sure.
If you allow to Aid even with different checks then the main action (so not only the same skill for a skill check or only attack for attack), there couldn't be any problem to allow aiding melee attacks with bow shots.HumbleGamer |
isn't that the inspire competence bard composition?
I know it's forbidden because being a composition will force the character not to use inspire courage, but if the DM were to let the bard using a normal Aid action with performance ( which is the main bard skill, based on charisma, and +2 circumstance bonus on feat because reasons ) not only for performance purposes but also for attacks, wouldn't this invalidate things making inspire competence even way more useless than it currently is?
shroudb |
I agree with the above.
There are several feats that help with aiding from range using specific skills.
Allowing the base action to invalidate all of them seems kinda too much to me.
As a GM, I would only allow same checks for Aiding 'as a standard tactic'.
That means that as an exception, if you try something like that once or twice, and it fits the occasion, I would allow it. But if the player tried to keep doing that, I would point towards the feats that allow to do so all the time.
Captain Morgan |
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Y'all are wrong about not being able to use ranged weapons for Aid, but if it makes you feel any better Paizo printed that mistake in the initial CRB, so it you consult a release copy you're probably reinforcing that misunderstanding.
The root of the confusion is likely the Assisting Shot feat, which originally let you use Aid with ranged weapons. When Paizo realized you could already do that with ranged weapons, they completely rewrote the feat.
I don't think any other feat codifies a requirement about ranged. Fake Out lets you Aid without spending the action, One For All lets you do it in any context with Diplomacy.
Errenor |
isn't that the inspire competence bard composition?Is this a question to me? If yes, then the answer is 'no'.
There are several feats that help with aiding from range using specific skills.
Allowing the base action to invalidate all of them seems kinda too much to me.
Nothing is invalidated. You really should compare specifically.
And anyway this doesn't matter. There can't be any argument that it doesn't work RAW. There's nothing in the action about range, at all. Here's the rule to remind you: AidWell, it's GM dependent, but almost everyone here extends the scope anyway. And range is not limited.
shroudb |
HumbleGamer wrote:isn't that the inspire competence bard composition?Is this a question to me? If yes, then the answer is 'no'.shroudb wrote:There are several feats that help with aiding from range using specific skills.
Allowing the base action to invalidate all of them seems kinda too much to me.
Nothing is invalidated. You really should compare specifically.
And anyway this doesn't matter. There can't be any argument that it doesn't work RAW. There's nothing in the action about range, at all. Here's the rule to remind you: Aid
Well, it's GM dependent, but almost everyone here extends the scope anyway. And range is not limited.
Never said range.
I said check.
So attack check for aiding in an attack.
Climb check to aid on climbing.
Athletic check to help with force open.
And etc.
And yes, allowing someone to use diplomacy, performance, and etc to aid with attacks does 100% invalidate the feats that do exactly that.
As you said, it is 100% on the gm what can give aid. And most gms I know only allow same check for aid if it's something that happens over and over again.
Captain Morgan |
Errenor wrote:HumbleGamer wrote:isn't that the inspire competence bard composition?Is this a question to me? If yes, then the answer is 'no'.shroudb wrote:There are several feats that help with aiding from range using specific skills.
Allowing the base action to invalidate all of them seems kinda too much to me.
Nothing is invalidated. You really should compare specifically.
And anyway this doesn't matter. There can't be any argument that it doesn't work RAW. There's nothing in the action about range, at all. Here's the rule to remind you: Aid
Well, it's GM dependent, but almost everyone here extends the scope anyway. And range is not limited.Never said range.
I said check.
So attack check for aiding in an attack.
Climb check to aid on climbing.
Athletic check to help with force open.And etc.
And yes, allowing someone to use diplomacy, performance, and etc to aid with attacks does 100% invalidate the feats that do exactly that.
That's not necessarily true. Inspire Competence doesn't allow for attack rolls anyway, so there's no invalidating there. I likely wouldn't allow Diplomacy to work for Aid sans One For All, but that's because I don't think you can credibly apply the "let's put our weapons down and talk it out" skill to intentionally help your ally backstab someone. That would be a Deception check.
Even if you did allow Diplomacy to Aid an attack roll, One For All still applies for literally any other check, including Recall Knowledge and out of combat stuff.
All that matters for Aid is if you can convince your GM the roll is appropriate.
Errenor |
Errenor wrote:shroudb wrote:There are several feats that help with aiding from range using specific skills.
Allowing the base action to invalidate all of them seems kinda too much to me.
Nothing is invalidated. You really should compare specifically.
And anyway this doesn't matter. There can't be any argument that it doesn't work RAW. There's nothing in the action about range, at all. Here's the rule to remind you: Aid
Well, it's GM dependent, but almost everyone here extends the scope anyway. And range is not limited.Never said range. I said check. So attack check for aiding in an attack.
Climb check to aid on climbing. Athletic check to help with force open.
And etc.
And yes, allowing someone to use diplomacy, performance, and etc to aid with attacks does 100% invalidate the feats that do exactly that.
As you said, it is 100% on the gm what can give aid. And most gms I know only allow same check for aid if it's something that happens over and over again.
I'm really confused. You literally said 'range' in my quote of you. Are you talking to me? Because you also don't read what I write. I never said anything about 'allowing someone to use diplomacy, performance, and etc to aid with attacks'. I replied to breithauptclan about allowing range attacks to aid in attacks (melee for example). And then gave an example of aiding melee attacks with bow shots (range attacks).
breithauptclan |
I replied to breithauptclan about allowing range attacks to aid in attacks (melee for example). And then gave an example of aiding melee attacks with bow shots (range attacks).
And to be clear, I am accepting the correction from Captain Morgan. The original printing of Assisting Shot implied that Aid on a melee attack also needed to be a melee attack. Even though Aid itself never gave that restriction.
With Assisting Shot being reworded I don't think there is anything left that implies melee attacks can only be assisted by other things at melee range.
If you use a ranged attack for Aid, I would normally (sans Fake Out) expect that you would have to actually fire a shot.
Errenor |
If you use a ranged attack for Aid, I would normally (sans Fake Out) expect that you would have to actually fire a shot.
Yep, no problem. I even count arrows :) And no damage, obviously.
Well, now I'm wondering if you could include Reload into the preparing action to Aid if you are using reloading weapon... :D
Luke Styer |
My own instinct as a GM is to be pretty liberal with Aid attempts, though if the check isn’t something pretty obvious, like a melee attack to aid a melee attack, I generally look for some sort of explanation of logic. But that just leads to a more interested emergent narrative to have PCs working together to pull off something crazy.
shroudb |
shroudb wrote:I'm really confused. You literally said 'range' in my quote of you. Are you talking to me? Because you also don't read what I write. I never said anything about 'allowing someone to use diplomacy, performance, and etc to aid with attacks'. I replied to breithauptclan about allowing range attacks to aid in attacks (melee for example). And then gave an example of aiding melee attacks with bow shots (range attacks).Errenor wrote:shroudb wrote:There are several feats that help with aiding from range using specific skills.
Allowing the base action to invalidate all of them seems kinda too much to me.
Nothing is invalidated. You really should compare specifically.
And anyway this doesn't matter. There can't be any argument that it doesn't work RAW. There's nothing in the action about range, at all. Here's the rule to remind you: Aid
Well, it's GM dependent, but almost everyone here extends the scope anyway. And range is not limited.Never said range. I said check. So attack check for aiding in an attack.
Climb check to aid on climbing. Athletic check to help with force open.
And etc.
And yes, allowing someone to use diplomacy, performance, and etc to aid with attacks does 100% invalidate the feats that do exactly that.
As you said, it is 100% on the gm what can give aid. And most gms I know only allow same check for aid if it's something that happens over and over again.
i said from range using specific skills.
the specific skill being the problem for me, not the range.
range, as long as it is justified (i.e. not using amelee weapon from range to aid, or not trying to aid a force open from 20 feet away) is not an issue for me.
but using alternate skills/check instead of the same one is something that would only allow as a thing of the moment, and not as a recurring tactic.