Thaumaturge First Impressions


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Easl wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I then used Exploit Vulnerability and Diverse Lore on the lead rat. (As a human, I get lots of feats.) The GM tells me "it's just a rat; no immunities, resistances, vulnerabilities, or special abilities--not even disease."
If they have no weaknesses, you jury rig a "personal antithesis" of value 2+half level. So unless you crit fail, Exploit Vulnerability always gives you at least +2 damage.

I didn't forget the Personal Antithesis damage.

Easl wrote:
So the thaumaturge is one of those 'second best at lots of things' sort of character. It's a martial AND a face AND a researcher AND a consumable-producer, almost all at 1st level (the consumables come later)! It just doesn't do any of them quite as good as a dedicated-to-one-of-them PC.

That's precisely why I wanted to try it out.

Easl wrote:
IIRC Implement's empowerment adds +2 per damage die, not a flat +2. So when you cast magic weapon on it like you say you did, your 1st level Thaumaturge will be doing 2d8+9 (+4+2+3) damage per strike. Which is really quite good at 1st level. Now granted, you've paid for that by basically not attacking for a round to set it up. But once it's set up, it doesn't require any further shenaningans in later rounds to keep that benefit going, like say an Investigator or Rogue or Magus sometimes requires.

Now that part I did forget. Total facepalming now, because I knew about it going in, but forgot to apply it once I used the spell. I'll have to make a point of remembering it in the future.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This past Saturday I had my second chance to play a (1st-level) thaumaturge in PFS.

Having learned a few things from my first game, and from a handful of helpful suggestions on these boards (thanks!), I went in with a whip implement and a longsword this time, rather than just a longsword implement.

(I know that dual-wielding with an implement is not accepted by some, but the PFS GM in question interprets it as being acceptable provided one weapon is an implement.)

That allowed me to make reactionary attacks at reach.

I also used some of my new PFS funds to purchase several new scrolls: bless, fleet step, heal, and magic weapon (x2 with school scroll).

As in the previous game, we fought several kobolds, which we easily made short work of. Having fought them previously and knowing their general power level, I didn't waste actions on Exploit Vulnerability. I also didn't charge headlong into the fray, instead often waiting for allies to go first so that I could use my enhanced speed to move into a flanking support role.

We were a party of martials and a bard.

Eventually we faced the "kobold king" some kind of powerful spellcaster. I used a scroll to cast magic weapon on a new player's longsword and he was able to dispatch the "king" with a crit before he could cast a single spell. Everyone else made short work of the guards, capturing one alive.

After a brief interrogation, we found that the kobolds had a large pet creature they were feeding in the next cave.

So I cast magic weapon again, this time on the orc's butcher axe and we charged in.

It was a level 4 green dragon!

It nearly took out one character in the first round, took flight to gain distance taking out two characters with its breath weapon, got tripped back to the ground by my whip, and was pounced on by everyone else.

The whole fight was over in about 3 rounds. That's positively crazy for a +3 encounter.

Playing as friendly support rather than as a martial trying to be the first to kill everything was a lot more fun use of the class. It also went along ways towards making players new to PF2 PFS feel really powerful and heroic.


That sounds like great fun.

I just re-read the Thaumaturge description, and I'm pretty sure you lose Implement's Empowerment (+2 damage/die) if you dual wield. But it looks like that's your only limitation.

"You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit."

Well, that, and only one of them can qualify as your weapon implement.

"If you acquire a new object of the same general implement type, you can switch your implement to the new object by spending 1 day of downtime with the new item."

Cheers


Ravingdork wrote:

(I know that dual-wielding with an implement is not accepted by some, but the PFS GM in question interprets it as being acceptable provided one weapon is an implement.)

That allowed me to make reactionary attacks at reach.

For a less questionable option, there is the shifting rune - but that is quite a bit higher level than level 1.

Also Thaumaturge does quite well with combination firearm weapons like a Gun Sword or Mace Multipistol. Though you will need to pick up Ammunition Thaumaturgy.

Ravingdork wrote:
Playing as friendly support rather than as a martial trying to be the first to kill everything was a lot more fun use of the class. It also went along ways towards making players new to PF2 PFS feel really powerful and heroic.

That is actually true for the majority of classes. Even classes like Fighter and Barbarian have their effectiveness and the effectiveness of the entire party increased by doing things to set up their team members.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Squiggit wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Setting aside that the "weakness can only trigger once from a single damage instance" is RAW but not what was intended for the class.

Do you have a source for this? Letting a thaumaturge use personal antithesis alongside traditional weaknesses would go a long way to making them more functional in these sorts of encounters.

breithauptclan wrote:
But that doesn't mean that the Thaumaturge is actually doing worse. The Thaumaturge is doing at least as well as they would have done without the preparations.

But it does mean that, essentially, the Thaumaturge loses out on a benefit other martials could gain access to because their damage mechanic runs in the same channel.

It means that in campaigns where there's ready access to knowledge and opportunities to learn about monsters and exploit their weaknesses, the thaumaturge becomes a worse choice of character to play than other martials, which feels incredibly contradictory to the thematic underpinings of the class.

I realized I never cited a source here. I'm mostly referencing this story, where class author Mark has Mios use exploit vulnerability against a demon while already wielding a cold iron weapon. Mark also alludes to them stacking in the comments.

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6si3g?Iconic-Encounter-In-Truth-s- Light#18

I thought I saw something where Mark noted this as a problem in the playtest, and something that would be addressed. But I can't find the post yet.


breithauptclan wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

(I know that dual-wielding with an implement is not accepted by some, but the PFS GM in question interprets it as being acceptable provided one weapon is an implement.)

That allowed me to make reactionary attacks at reach.

For a less questionable option, there is the shifting rune - but that is quite a bit higher level than level 1.

Also Thaumaturge does quite well with combination firearm weapons like a Gun Sword or Mace Multipistol. Though you will need to pick up Ammunition Thaumaturgy.

Ravingdork wrote:
Playing as friendly support rather than as a martial trying to be the first to kill everything was a lot more fun use of the class. It also went along ways towards making players new to PF2 PFS feel really powerful and heroic.
That is actually true for the majority of classes. Even classes like Fighter and Barbarian have their effectiveness and the effectiveness of the entire party increased by doing things to set up their team members.

I assume you mean triggerbrand rather than the gunsword. But yeah, weapon intensify + triggerbrand salvo by 12th level is particularly nasty with thaums. Especially since salvo doesn't stipulate combining the damage for the purposes of weaknesses like most multi attack actions and activities do.


aobst128 wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

(I know that dual-wielding with an implement is not accepted by some, but the PFS GM in question interprets it as being acceptable provided one weapon is an implement.)

That allowed me to make reactionary attacks at reach.

For a less questionable option, there is the shifting rune - but that is quite a bit higher level than level 1.

Also Thaumaturge does quite well with combination firearm weapons like a Gun Sword or Mace Multipistol. Though you will need to pick up Ammunition Thaumaturgy.

Ravingdork wrote:
Playing as friendly support rather than as a martial trying to be the first to kill everything was a lot more fun use of the class. It also went along ways towards making players new to PF2 PFS feel really powerful and heroic.
That is actually true for the majority of classes. Even classes like Fighter and Barbarian have their effectiveness and the effectiveness of the entire party increased by doing things to set up their team members.
I assume you mean triggerbrand rather than the gunsword. But yeah, weapon intensify + triggerbrand salvo by 12th level is particularly nasty with thaums. Especially since salvo doesn't stipulate combining the damage for the purposes of weaknesses like most multi attack actions and activities do.

Well, combining damage is a double-edged sword. Usually it works well for martials, as those actions let you punch through resistances and hardness easier. Thaumaturge is a rare case where you are always hitting weakness and so combining damage costs you damage.


Dubious Scholar wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

(I know that dual-wielding with an implement is not accepted by some, but the PFS GM in question interprets it as being acceptable provided one weapon is an implement.)

That allowed me to make reactionary attacks at reach.

For a less questionable option, there is the shifting rune - but that is quite a bit higher level than level 1.

Also Thaumaturge does quite well with combination firearm weapons like a Gun Sword or Mace Multipistol. Though you will need to pick up Ammunition Thaumaturgy.

Ravingdork wrote:
Playing as friendly support rather than as a martial trying to be the first to kill everything was a lot more fun use of the class. It also went along ways towards making players new to PF2 PFS feel really powerful and heroic.
That is actually true for the majority of classes. Even classes like Fighter and Barbarian have their effectiveness and the effectiveness of the entire party increased by doing things to set up their team members.
I assume you mean triggerbrand rather than the gunsword. But yeah, weapon intensify + triggerbrand salvo by 12th level is particularly nasty with thaums. Especially since salvo doesn't stipulate combining the damage for the purposes of weaknesses like most multi attack actions and activities do.
Well, combining damage is a double-edged sword. Usually it works well for martials, as those actions let you punch through resistances and hardness easier. Thaumaturge is a rare case where you are always hitting weakness and so combining damage costs you damage.

Exactly. That's why it's notably good for thaums.


aobst128 wrote:


I assume you mean triggerbrand rather than the gunsword. But yeah, weapon intensify + triggerbrand salvo by 12th level is particularly nasty with thaums. Especially since salvo doesn't stipulate combining the damage for the purposes of weaknesses like most multi attack actions and activities do.

I find tome intensify into salvo stronger than weapon intensify, simply because you maximise your chances the 1st hit connecting so that the 2nd can go off.

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