With people heading over from D&D, a couple more uncommon ancestries should be made free


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A lot of people came over from 5e to PF2e, and to make PFS more welcoming and to make it easier for people to recreate their DnD characters in PF, I think we should make a couple more ancestries free

Most notably, I think tieflings, aasimar and maybe even Lizardfolk free

A lot of people in the DnD community mainly played tieflings, and they aren’t going to find PFS fun. They have to spend ACP to make a tiefling character, which kind of sucks especially coming from D&D, whose organized play doesn’t place limits on ancestries but also has tieflings as a base race.

I understand limiting or even outright banning rare ancestries or heritages, like automatons and stuff, but I feel like options need to open up a little more.

People love tieflings, and I can’t imagine they’d be happy having to wait a long time to create another tiefling character. Not everyone wants to keep playing the same old human/elf/dwarf.

While I sort of understand why ACP is placed on uncommon ancestries, it does hurt character concepts and player freedom with characters in favor of gamey mechanics where you have to unlock the right to use an ancestry for a character like a video game, which I don’t think meshes all that well in a TTRPG where people have character concepts with backstories and personality of their own creation, with a game that has RP as a major focus.

Keeping a couple rare ancestries behind ACP I think is incentive enough to encourage people to DM or to keep playing.

I think Lizardfolk, catfolk, hobgoblins, nagaji and gnolls should be free too but that might be asking too much

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Dont new players get 60 ACP to spend?

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

It's 80. Enough for new players to purchase a tiefling, aasimar, or lizardfolk (which is only 40 AcP) just like OP wants.

Achievement Points Update wrote:


I have good news and bad news!

The good news: last week, tech rolled a code update that, among other things, should start every new player with 80 Achievement Points for both Pathfinder and Starfinder Society and retroactively grant those points to current players as well. One of the most consistent complaints about the program at large is that new players can’t play weird characters from the jump. This 80 AcP grant is enough to purchase an uncommon ancestry, some new character options, or just resurrect your character a couple of times after making… interesting choices. We hope that this will ease a new player’s introduction to the system and benefit those of you who have been working diligently to save up for something shiny as well!

—June 2022 Organized Play Monthly Update

In addition to this other typically-uncommon ancestries like Kobolds and Orc are free.


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Doug Hahn wrote:

It's 80. Enough for new players to purchase a tiefling, aasimar, or lizardfolk (which is only 40 AcP) just like OP wants.

Achievement Points Update wrote:


I have good news and bad news!

The good news: last week, tech rolled a code update that, among other things, should start every new player with 80 Achievement Points for both Pathfinder and Starfinder Society and retroactively grant those points to current players as well. One of the most consistent complaints about the program at large is that new players can’t play weird characters from the jump. This 80 AcP grant is enough to purchase an uncommon ancestry, some new character options, or just resurrect your character a couple of times after making… interesting choices. We hope that this will ease a new player’s introduction to the system and benefit those of you who have been working diligently to save up for something shiny as well!

—June 2022 Organized Play Monthly Update

In addition to this other typically-uncommon ancestries like Kobolds and Orc are free.

But that means I can’t make one tiefling but then make another tiefling character or a lizardfolk

A lot of people in dnd who are moving over form dnd to PF2e were tiefling mains, and PFS as it is right now is very unfriendly to tiefling mains

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
CaptainRelyk wrote:
PFS as it is right now is very unfriendly to tiefling mains

Can you elaborate further on this? I'm not sure I understand why getting to start with any of these Uncommon ancestries means PFS is unfriendly to them.

Yes, you need to earn AcP to get more ancestries, but it comes fast and the common use-case for new players is to play extensively on their first PC before they branch out (that is not true in all cases of course, but it seems like a common pattern).


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Doug Hahn wrote:
CaptainRelyk wrote:
PFS as it is right now is very unfriendly to tiefling mains

Can you elaborate further on this? I'm not sure I understand why getting to start with any of these Uncommon ancestries means PFS is unfriendly to them.

Yes, you need to earn AcP to get more ancestries, but it comes fast and the common use-case for new players is to play extensively on their first PC before they branch out (that is not true in all cases of course, but it seems like a common pattern).

It’s unfriendly in that you aren’t able to play many tiefling characters like you could PFS human or other common ancestry characters, or how you can constantly make tiefling characters in D&D’s AL

And also I’ve been told it takes quite a bit and awhile to rack up ACP, especially for Play-by-post/play-by-discord style of play where an adventure isn’t in a few hours but rather spread out over a couple weeks or even a month or two.

Wayfinders 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Contributor

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As a player, it takes approximately 20 scenarios to earn the ACP for another Tiefling. (As a GM, the process is twice as fast.) However, there are also some fun races that are free. Have you looked at kobolds, leshies and orcs? They definitely have some fun monstrous abilities.

2/5 5/5 **

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

It does take longer to /complete a scenario/ in PbP than live, yes, but it doesn't take more scenarios. You accrue the AcP at the same per scenario rate.

I can sympathize how having fewer immediately available ancestry options can feel restrictive when you're coming from AL where you have open access to 40 ancestries from the get go of any character you create.

AL isn't the same kind if living campaign as PFS, there are different rules. If the OP team chooses to change some rules/access to make campaign more appealing to other groups, I won't be bothered in the least. However, that the character creation rules are different does not make them unfriendly. Unpopular, maybe.

However, at the end of the day, any new player can create any 80 AcP ancestry/heritage character as their first character.


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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

As a player, it takes approximately 20 scenarios to earn the ACP for another Tiefling. (As a GM, the process is twice as fast.) However, there are also some fun races that are free. Have you looked at kobolds, leshies and orcs? They definitely have some fun monstrous abilities.

20 scenarios is a long time

Especially for people who don’t have too much free time in their lives

Wayfinders 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Contributor

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Oh, agreed. That was why we added the 80 ACP to every player, to allow players to start with a beloved ancestry. It was something that many of the people on this forum advocated for. In the beginning of the campaign you started out with 0 ACP. The current situation is a big improvement over what we had before.

Now, that doesn't help you get a second tiefling character before your first tiefling character turns Level 8. But orcs have tusks and other monstrous characteristics that might still scratch that itch, and orcs are free.

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Don't forget in PFS you can freely rebuild through level 1. This allows can try out a few things with your first PC, which is nice especially if you are new and they are using valuable AcP! This can at least mitigate any bad feelings you might have that lead to creating a new PC and feeling your first foray was wasted.

Wayfinders 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Contributor

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So one thing that I love about tieflings in PF2 is that they don't have to be human-based. You can have tiefling leshies and kobolds. You can go really weird with tieflings in PF2.

BTW, if you think you would ever want to play a leshy, I am going to strongly suggest 1-15: Blooming Catastrophe as a scenario you specifically would want to play. And no, I'm not telling you why. :)

★ --- ★ --- ★ --- ★

But since you can only afford one tiefling for a bit, let's help you get that tiefling feel on other characters. You could create a diabolic sorcerer.

You could do a Sarcovian Animal Instinct barbarian, flavoring the claws or bite as tiefling anatomy.

You could do a oracle with the Ancestor Mystery to mimic possession, or a Flame Mystery to mimic being cursed with hellfire.

You could do a mutagen alchemist to flavor drinking demonic elixirs to gain infernal powers. So we could play with this a bit to help you achieve that tiefling feel.


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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

So one thing that I love about tieflings in PF2 is that they don't have to be human-based. You can have tiefling leshies and kobolds. You can go really weird with tieflings in PF2.

BTW, if you think you would ever want to play a leshy, I am going to strongly suggest 1-15: Blooming Catastrophe as a scenario you specifically would want to play. And no, I'm not telling you why. :)

★ --- ★ --- ★ --- ★

But since you can only afford one tiefling for a bit, let's help you get that tiefling feel on other characters. You could create a diabolic sorcerer.

You could do a Sarcovian Animal Instinct barbarian, flavoring the claws or bite as tiefling anatomy.

You could do a oracle with the Ancestor Mystery to mimic possession, or a Flame Mystery to mimic being cursed with hellfire.

You could do a mutagen alchemist to flavor drinking demonic elixirs to gain infernal powers. So we could play with this a bit to help you achieve that tiefling feel.

Actually already had a character in mind

Warpriest (wyrmkin or travel, probably wyrmkin) of Apsu
Tiefling (Human)

I have a backstory for her too. Long story short, when she was a little girl, a bunch of villagers were about to kill her since they thought she was evil due to being a tiefling, but then a silver dragon came along and saved her life. The silver dragon adopted her since she was an orphan and she took care of my character. The dragon made sure to be a wonderful adoptive mother and gave my character the best childhood a silver dragon can give. However, later on people tried to kill my character again and the silver dragon gave her life to protect my character. Seeing that a metallic dragon not only raised her but also gave their life for her, my character has a sense of “kinship” with metallic dragons and loves them, leading to her becoming a cleric of Apsu. She even picked up a couple draconic habits from her adoptive mother. Such as her have an affinity for jewelry and shiny things


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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

So one thing that I love about tieflings in PF2 is that they don't have to be human-based. You can have tiefling leshies and kobolds. You can go really weird with tieflings in PF2.

BTW, if you think you would ever want to play a leshy, I am going to strongly suggest 1-15: Blooming Catastrophe as a scenario you specifically would want to play. And no, I'm not telling you why. :)

★ --- ★ --- ★ --- ★

But since you can only afford one tiefling for a bit, let's help you get that tiefling feel on other characters. You could create a diabolic sorcerer.

You could do a Sarcovian Animal Instinct barbarian, flavoring the claws or bite as tiefling anatomy.

You could do a oracle with the Ancestor Mystery to mimic possession, or a Flame Mystery to mimic being cursed with hellfire.

You could do a mutagen alchemist to flavor drinking demonic elixirs to gain infernal powers. So we could play with this a bit to help you achieve that tiefling feel.

Oh wait you were talking about other characters after someone having a tiefling as their first

I think the thing tiefling mains like about tieflings boils down to two things: their looks. People like having characters who have horns and a tail with a barb thing at the end. And secondly, their struggle. Theirs something appealing about having the world assume your evil because of your infernal heritage but then proving them wrong

As for me, I wanted to make a tiefling (human) and then make a lizardfolk (wetlander) witch. Thing is, with my schedule and now I’m likely only gonna be able to play PBP, it’s gonna take far too long to be able to play that other character and I’d rather not play a race like regular human or elf that I’m not gonna find fun. I have character ideas with backstory and personality, and I want to play them. I don’t want to play a character I’m going to find boring or despise just so I can grind ACP like it’s a video game

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
CaptainRelyk wrote:
I don’t want to play a character I’m going to find boring or despise just so I can grind ACP like it’s a video game

The purpose isn't to make PFS like a video game; yes, it's a carrot on a stick to GM more (and GMing keeps OPF alive!), but these ancestries are also uncommon in the setting — simply put, aasimar are not common in the world of Golarionn. Perhaps they are in Forgotten Realms these days, but the two settings are intentionally distinct. The AcP system provides a way to achieve that setting goal (while serving other purposes like driving engagement, which is important too).

As an aside, because you mentioned "grinding" video games, I want to point out that these uncommon ancestries are not mechanically better in any way than other options you can access out of the gate. 2E is very balanced that way; in fact you can probably build a core-rulebook-only human or elf fighter who's more powerful than anything from the new books.


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Doug Hahn wrote:
CaptainRelyk wrote:
I don’t want to play a character I’m going to find boring or despise just so I can grind ACP like it’s a video game

The purpose isn't to make PFS like a video game; yes, it's a carrot on a stick to GM more (and GMing keeps OPF alive!), but these ancestries are also uncommon in the setting — simply put, aasimar are not common in the world of Golarionn. Perhaps they are in Forgotten Realms these days, but the two settings are intentionally distinct. The AcP system provides a way to achieve that setting goal (while serving other purposes like driving engagement, which is important too).

As an aside, because you mentioned "grinding" video games, I want to point out that these uncommon ancestries are not mechanically better in any way than other options you can access out of the gate. 2E is very balanced that way; in fact you can probably build a core-rulebook-only human or elf fighter who's more powerful than anything from the new books.

Not only are aasimar “uncommon” in forgotten realms, but they are extremely rare, like very very rare. Same with other dnd ancestries. Like you don’t see lizardfolk everywhere in FR yet AL still let’s you play one as long as you own the sourcebook

And considering adventurers aren’t supposed to be normal and has things about them that are not ordinary, I don’t get all the fuss about maintaining “rarity” of an ancestry. For every player character there are thousands of ordinary human/elf/dwarf people. I understand limiting rare options like Automaton but I don’t see why there should be such limited on uncommon ancestries/heritages, especially when said ancestries/heritages fill a niche that the common ancestries don’t fill. Wanna play a tall lizard person? Lizardfolk. Wanna play someone with horns and a tail who has infernal heritage? Tiefling. Wanna play a cat person? Catfolk. Wanna play as snek person, like upper torso human bottom snake or maybe even have a snake head? Nagaji. Wanna play someone whose body is elemental? Stuff like ifrits exist

Allowing more free uncommon ancestries/heritages wouldn’t break the lore of Golarion. Even if every single player character was an uncommon ancestry/heritage (which is unlikely cause there’s plenty of people who just stick to human or elf), there’s still thousands and thousands of NPCs who are a normal/common ancestry.


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Doug Hahn wrote:
CaptainRelyk wrote:
I don’t want to play a character I’m going to find boring or despise just so I can grind ACP like it’s a video game

The purpose isn't to make PFS like a video game; yes, it's a carrot on a stick to GM more (and GMing keeps OPF alive!), but these ancestries are also uncommon in the setting — simply put, aasimar are not common in the world of Golarionn. Perhaps they are in Forgotten Realms these days, but the two settings are intentionally distinct. The AcP system provides a way to achieve that setting goal (while serving other purposes like driving engagement, which is important too).

As an aside, because you mentioned "grinding" video games, I want to point out that these uncommon ancestries are not mechanically better in any way than other options you can access out of the gate. 2E is very balanced that way; in fact you can probably build a core-rulebook-only human or elf fighter who's more powerful than anything from the new books.

And just to clarify. I know those ancestries aren’t any more powerful, and might even be weaker than common ancestries in a couple cases. But as someone who is character concept first optimization second, I wanna play a specific ancestry and class because I have a character idea, to hell with minmaxing. Even if that ability score errata wasn’t made, I would still wanna play a lizardfolk witch even if they have -2 to intelligence (which doesn’t make sense lore wise for PF2e lizardfolk but that’s besides the point)

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Adventure may be uncommon, but that doesn't mean ancestries should be common.

The 2e system leverages rarity as a way to codify some of these things, which any GM can customize for their game. It's subjective but that's the house rules of PFS.

And yes, honestly, they want the carrot on the stick too. Games don't happen without GMs, so GMs can earn AcP at an accelerated rate as well, which is an option for anyone who wants to fast-track what they can. There is certainly an element of gamification, in addition to subjective lore/setting house rules!

2/5 5/5 **

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Grinding is elemental to games with advancement not just video games. I was grinding in D&D for gold and XP long before any TSR Gold Box video game was released for the Commadore 64.

The AcP system doesn't exist to force a grind. Like Doug said, it's an incentive to GM. In 1e PFS, the only way to get the really diverse ancestries is to GM at public events. They changed it so that people who didn't GM could eventually gain these boons, too.

The restriction on what ancestries are available is a creative direction choice. Not everyone who comes to try PFS is happy with it, no, but that doesn't make it inherently bad that there's a creative director to the story and feel of the living campaign that limits what is and is not available.

Note that there are Adventure Mode games where you can build by whatever rules the GM allows. They're less common than Organized Play scenarios and sometimes take longer to play, but they exist as an option for one to play whatever kind of character one might desire.

Scarab Sages 3/5 *** Venture-Agent, Wisconsin—Franklin

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Because PFS has to make accommodations to a wide range of folks and Pathfinder originates in part as a reaction to changes in D&D, the system in place serves as a compromise position. The folks who like your Tolkien ancestries aren't swarmed by all manner of androids, lizardfolk, and geniekin but those who want them do have access to them in a more measured capacity.

I know that restriction of the anthropomorphic options from 1E that were available in 1st ed society has put a damper on our local lodge from folks just played Kitsune (we had a LOT of furries). I also know that a number of our players were annoyed at sitting down with a table full of fox people.

If your local lodge is bringing in a lot of new people, a beginner box day isn't a bad idea to teach people both to play and GM. As a bonus, it gives 2x AcP. GMing is a good way to earn a fair bit of AcP and GMing 2e is remarkably easy compared to a lot of other RPGs.

Finally, last year at Paizocon is when they rolled out the AcP starting grant. If there's going to be changes to PFS options, it'll be there. It's about a month and change away. Idk that we'll see as sizable a change as we did last year but I personally hope some of the older, more iconic options get a points shave.

Grand Lodge **

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Beginner Box doesn't grant x2 XP anymore.

Wayfinders 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Contributor

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Actually, PaizoCon is the start of the Starfinder year. GenCon tends to be the start of the Pathfinder year. A few years ago, they decided to stagger the starts of the two Organized Play campaigns to lower the pressure on the Organized Play team.

And to be honest, I do think that Organized Play should make a few more ancestries legal to start with. I would really love to see Kitsune, Tengus and Iruxi become legal, because they were legal races in PF1. I want a few more furry races legal upfront to help attract the furry crowd, which has been an enthusiastic part of our base.

I would not mind seeing us open up other races for the D&D crowd, or lowering the ACP cost on them. But Golarian is distinctive from Forgotten Realms, and we do need incentives for GMs. It's been one of the best carrots that we've used to recruit casual GMs at Dreamers - knowing that they can get extra ACP towards a cherished boon race.

Captain Relyk wrote:

Actually already had a character in mind

Warpriest (wyrmkin or travel, probably wyrmkin) of Apsu
Tiefling (Human)

I have a backstory for her too. Long story short, when she was a little girl, a bunch of villagers were about to kill her since they thought she was evil due to being a tiefling, but then a silver dragon came along and saved her life. The silver dragon adopted her since she was an orphan and she took care of my character. The dragon made sure to be a wonderful adoptive mother and gave my character the best childhood a silver dragon can give. However, later on people tried to kill my character again and the silver dragon gave her life to protect my character. Seeing that a metallic dragon not only raised her but also gave their life for her, my character has a sense of “kinship” with metallic dragons and loves them, leading to her becoming a cleric of Apsu. She even picked up a couple draconic habits from her adoptive mother. Such as her have an affinity for jewelry and shiny things

We have an amazing draconic race in the PFS Legal Kobold. They get dragon breath, and access to all kinds of other dragon options. You could build an older sibling for this character that is a kobold older sister, paving the way in Society for her until she is ready to adventure. Build up this adopted family with kobolds until you have enough ACP for this tiefling warpriest.

Wayfinders 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Contributor

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CaptainRelyk wrote:
Oh wait you were talking about other characters after someone having a tiefling as their first.

Yes, I was. Being a major PBP person myself, I understand needing two or three characters to play in PBP at the same time. Sometimes it can be a while between posts, and being in two or three adventures usually does not get too overwhelming. (More than that though, and I lose the ability to concentrate on my games. Everyone's bandwidth is different.)

CaptainRelyk wrote:
I think the thing tiefling mains like about tieflings boils down to two things: their looks. People like having characters who have horns and a tail with a barb thing at the end. And secondly, their struggle. Theirs something appealing about having the world assume your evil because of your infernal heritage but then proving them wrong.

So orcs do not have barbed tails. But they do have tusks, and a history of other folk believing that they are the bad guys, when they are in fact now heroes in the struggle. Orcs initially backed the Whispering Tyrant, but when that necromancer came back, he was surprised when the hordes of Belkzen refused to answer his call. They are monsters finding their way back into civilization, trying to make alliances when they are distrusted everywhere they go.

★ --- ★ --- ★ --- ★

TL/DR: Make a kobold sibling for your warpriest, and come up with an Orc character that is smart and struggling for acceptance. Play them through a bunch of games -- and maybe even GM a few -- and you will start earning the ACP for your iruxi and your second tiefling.

It's my fond hope that by GenCon we will see more legal races, including iruxi. The price was dropped on iruxi a while back, we have an iruxi faction leader, and there are other signs that iruxi might be legalized.

Then again, I could also be proven wrong. But here are some options that you can build until your witch and your war priest are ready to come out.

Happy Gaming,
Hmm

3/5 **

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Why not a wrym kin sorcerer tiefling?

Wayfinders 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Contributor

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I was assuming that Captain Relyk had already spent the 80 ACP on a different tiefling character, but there are no Organized Play characters yet listed under their profile for Starfinder or Pathfinder. So I was clearly trying to solve the wrong problem. The real question is... how do we get you started playing?

My suggestion is to just build whatever you want with the points you have, and get started. I hope you do try us out. Did you know that Organized Play changed the rules on the Dragonkin bond, just as you advocated for? Perhaps you can give Starfinder a shot while waiting to build your second tiefling.

Happy Gaming!
Hmm


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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
CaptainRelyk wrote:
Oh wait you were talking about other characters after someone having a tiefling as their first.

Yes, I was. Being a major PBP person myself, I understand needing two or three characters to play in PBP at the same time. Sometimes it can be a while between posts, and being in two or three adventures usually does not get too overwhelming. (More than that though, and I lose the ability to concentrate on my games. Everyone's bandwidth is different.)

CaptainRelyk wrote:
I think the thing tiefling mains like about tieflings boils down to two things: their looks. People like having characters who have horns and a tail with a barb thing at the end. And secondly, their struggle. Theirs something appealing about having the world assume your evil because of your infernal heritage but then proving them wrong.

So orcs do not have barbed tails. But they do have tusks, and a history of other folk believing that they are the bad guys, when they are in fact now heroes in the struggle. Orcs initially backed the Whispering Tyrant, but when that necromancer came back, he was surprised when the hordes of Belkzen refused to answer his call. They are monsters finding their way back into civilization, trying to make alliances when they are distrusted everywhere they go.

★ --- ★ --- ★ --- ★

TL/DR: Make a kobold sibling for your warpriest, and come up with an Orc character that is smart and struggling for acceptance. Play them through a bunch of games -- and maybe even GM a few -- and you will start earning the ACP for your iruxi and your second tiefling.

It's my fond hope that by GenCon we will see more legal races, including iruxi. The price was dropped on iruxi a while back, we have an iruxi faction leader, and there are other signs that iruxi might be legalized.

Then again, I could also be proven wrong. But here are some options that you can build until your witch and your war priest are ready to come out.

Happy Gaming,
Hmm

Orc paladin of Apsu

-Adopted little brother of the tiefling warpriest. He’s a bit of an a#@%+%+ and grumpy but If you get to know him he’s a nice guy

Kobold Fervor Witch
-adopted older sister of the tiefling. She is a witch who made a pact with Apsu. She’s kind and always looks out for her Allies.


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But yeah, I really think we need more free options for ancestries. At the bare minimum Iruxi, tieflings, aasimar, kitsune and maybe even Catfolk. I think leaving the other ancestries behind ACP is fine because then we would already have free ancestries that cover their niche but still leave incentive for people to GM.

Dark Archive 4/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku

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Ye, but problem is that the "what ancestries should be free" depends on who you ask. For me, I think they should lock goblins behind 200acp, and make Kobolds Common (instead of uncommon but everybody-has-access) so that you can get adopted by them. Given that catfolks were originally more expensive but just got a discount, similar to how iruxi gained a discount not too long ago, it seems unlikely that those two get further discounted unless we have some IG reasons for it.

Similarly, Aasimar and Tiefling were free in 1st edition due to some adventure/thematic stuff, and I'd expect that we'd get them discounted (but probably not free) for 2e if we happen to get similar story reasons for it.

I like how Kayals got discounted after we had a whole season of adventures closely related to the shadow plane and fetchlings - I purchased my own fetchling AcP boon at the start of the season before the discount, but I'm super happy to see how "my characters efforts during this crisis" has resulted in more Kayals getting recruited to the society.

I'd like to see more adventures involving Ysokis so that we could get a discount on them as well, and since Changelings have been featured in several scenarios, I hope we get them discounted too after this season.


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Tomppa wrote:

Ye, but problem is that the "what ancestries should be free" depends on who you ask. For me, I think they should lock goblins behind 200acp, and make Kobolds Common (instead of uncommon but everybody-has-access) so that you can get adopted by them. Given that catfolks were originally more expensive but just got a discount, similar to how iruxi gained a discount not too long ago, it seems unlikely that those two get further discounted unless we have some IG reasons for it.

Similarly, Aasimar and Tiefling were free in 1st edition due to some adventure/thematic stuff, and I'd expect that we'd get them discounted (but probably not free) for 2e if we happen to get similar story reasons for it.

I like how Kayals got discounted after we had a whole season of adventures closely related to the shadow plane and fetchlings - I purchased my own fetchling AcP boon at the start of the season before the discount, but I'm super happy to see how "my characters efforts during this crisis" has resulted in more Kayals getting recruited to the society.

I'd like to see more adventures involving Ysokis so that we could get a discount on them as well, and since Changelings have been featured in several scenarios, I hope we get them discounted too after this season.

It’s better to make them free than to discount

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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CaptainRelyk wrote:
It’s better to make them free than to discount

Citation needed.

Scarab Sages 3/5 *** Venture-Agent, Wisconsin—Franklin

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CaptainRelyk wrote:


It’s better to make them free than to discount

Is it?

This isn't another game where species does a couple of minor things and then just fades into flavor. Ancestry and heritage involve ongoing choices throughout the game. Adding another always available ancestry adds a dozen or more feats plus heritages that have to be accounted for in the base assumptions of scenarios.

I want more options to be available at base or with lower AcP costs, but some options are more complex mechanically or have story complications that make putting some kind of investment requirement in place. Versatile heritages have definitely confused some of our senior players locally. Odd ancestries like automata have lead to some odd corner questions that ended up on my lap as VA. Having some level of flow control helps make that stuff easier to deal with.


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zeonsghost wrote:
CaptainRelyk wrote:


It’s better to make them free than to discount

Is it?

This isn't another game where species does a couple of minor things and then just fades into flavor. Ancestry and heritage involve ongoing choices throughout the game. Adding another always available ancestry adds a dozen or more feats plus heritages that have to be accounted for in the base assumptions of scenarios.

I want more options to be available at base or with lower AcP costs, but some options are more complex mechanically or have story complications that make putting some kind of investment requirement in place. Versatile heritages have definitely confused some of our senior players locally. Odd ancestries like automata have lead to some odd corner questions that ended up on my lap as VA. Having some level of flow control helps make that stuff easier to deal with.

I agree for some ancestries, especially automaton that should remain rare and locked behind ACP

But for ancestries like Iruxi or Kitsune, or heritages like Tiefling or aasimar, it should be made free not reduced.

If a player base works hard towards making an ancestry free and more available, only for them to get slapped in the face by a reduction in ACP and not it being made free, that sucks. If an ancestry is reduced in ACP for “lore reasons”, then they should just be made free. There’s an iruxi captain in the society and that is attracting other Iruxi? Okay then make iruxi free. Not to mention, what if my Iruxi isn’t a usual iruxi and was raised by a human for example? So the whole thing about certain ancestries not being attracted to or wanting to join PFS is making assumptions about a specific character because of their race

Not everyone has the time to constantly play or GM PFS games, and pbp only players only gonna have an even rougher time

And also, making more ancestries free would be beneficial to Paizo from a business perspective. It means I as a customer would be willing to buy a book knowing I can play the ancestry in said book right away in PFS. I’m gonna be discouraged from paying for the character guide book if I’m gonna have to wait to earn ACP to even play the ancestry I paid money for. Cause I’m gonna be honest, while i might still end up paying for a book or two to support Paizo, there isn’t a point in buying a book for outside of PFS cause of Archives of Nethys. PFS requiring the sourcebook is great and incentivized people to buy books and support Paizo, but ACP locked ancestries takes away that incentivization especially for people who don’t have a lot of free time. I have to buy this book… and then also wait months and months to rack up enough ACP to have the right to use the product I bought with real money?

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I am a little unclear actual the use-case here. There seem to be two main premises:

1. Not having much time to play means you can't acquire acp as quickly as others
2. 80 free acp is not enough because you want multiple uncommon PCs right away

If you're playing slowly and infrequently on PbP, how many aasimars and tieflings can you realistically use?

— Remember: you can rebuild the PC with the Ancestry for free up to level 2. You can rebuild for a measly 20ACP (5 scenarios) up to level 5. So, as a newer player if you don't like the build you don't have to give up the character!

I certainly understand that the PFS house rules can be a little wonky and annoying at times, but they seem a far cry from "slaps in the face" or "unfriendliness."


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Doug Hahn wrote:

I am a little unclear actual the use-case here. There seem to be two main premises:

1. Not having much time to play means you can't acquire acp as quickly as others
2. 80 free acp is not enough because you want multiple uncommon PCs right away

If you're playing slowly and infrequently on PbP, how many aasimars and tieflings can you realistically use?

— Remember: you also rebuild the PC with the Ancestry for free up to level 2. You can rebuild for a measly 20ACP (5 scenarios) up to level 5.

I certainly understand that the PFS house rules can be a little frustrating, but it also doesn't seem to me like any of this makes PFS a "slap in the face" or "unfriendly."

Alright, so for PBP only. Let’s assume an average PBP scenario takes a couple months to complete, especially with how me and probably others playing with me are heavy into RP. And let’s assume I’d be in two PBPs at once even though it’s likely I’m probably only going to be in one.

That’s about 20 months to get enough points to buy another uncommon ancestry/heritage for one singular character, and it will take even longer if I’m only able to do one PBP at a time.

That’s close to 2 years, close to 3 and a half if I can only do one PBP at a time.

That’s unfriendly, or at least it feels unfriendly.

Definitely would feel unwelcoming to tiefling mains moving over from D&D who want to play only tieflings

Besides, with D&D having tieflings, World of Warcraft having Draenei and other fantasy things have similar ancestries, I would argue Tieflings are a “staple” fantasy race alongside Elves dwarves and gnomes. They may not be Tolkien fantasy but I think it’s fair to say that both Pathfinder and D&D have deviated from Tolkien enough to be a different kind of fantasy.

But anyways, instead of just reducing the price on an ancestry it should just be made free, especially if players work hard to make an ancestry more available.

If we need a “lore” reason to justify making tieflings free, it could be that the society group is less discriminatory against tieflings and as such tieflings go to them knowing they are more likely to get hired.


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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

I was assuming that Captain Relyk had already spent the 80 ACP on a different tiefling character, but there are no Organized Play characters yet listed under their profile for Starfinder or Pathfinder. So I was clearly trying to solve the wrong problem. The real question is... how do we get you started playing?

My suggestion is to just build whatever you want with the points you have, and get started. I hope you do try us out. Did you know that Organized Play changed the rules on the Dragonkin bond, just as you advocated for? Perhaps you can give Starfinder a shot while waiting to build your second tiefling.

Happy Gaming!
Hmm

I could create that apsu cleric tiefling character and work with others to make pathfinder more accepting of tieflings, but I’d be really really upset if after all that hard work, working with other people to create tiefling characters and make the society a place that’s welcoming to tieflings, all tieflings got were a reduction in price and not be made free


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But there’s also the issue of me wanting to make my next character a lizardfolk witch, not a human fighter

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
CaptainRelyk wrote:
It could be that the society group is less discriminatory against tieflings and as such tieflings go to them knowing they are more likely to get hired.

To be clear: no one is discriminatory against any ancestries in society. Uncommon ≠ discrimination.

If you absolutely will not compromise for your 2nd PC, might I suggest GMing on PbP when you have time for that second game? That will get you AcP at twice the rate if not more. And you would be contributing the the larger community!


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Doug Hahn wrote:
CaptainRelyk wrote:
It could be that the society group is less discriminatory against tieflings and as such tieflings go to them knowing they are more likely to get hired.

To be clear: no one is discriminatory against ancestries in society. That's not in the lore.

Oh, then in that case there’s the reason for why tieflings are made free. Pathfinder Society (the in-universe group) are welcoming if tieflings, which attracts tieflings to them since a tiefling might have trouble finding work elsewhere

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
CaptainRelyk wrote:
Oh, then in that case there’s the reason for why tieflings are made free. Pathfinder Society (the in-universe group) are welcoming if tieflings, which attracts tieflings to them since a tiefling might have trouble finding work elsewhere

By this logic, everything should be free because the Society is welcoming to all ancestries.

If you have time to pick up a second game, feel free to GM and earn twice as fast. If you're concurrently GMing and playing you can get a lizardfolk relatively fast for your given speed (and it's all contextual right? It's not a race).

2/5 5/5 **

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I wish I had enough free time to search for an link all the pages and pages of forum discussion and Paizo blogs on this topic.

Humoring the premise that it is better for Organized Play to make all ancestries and heritages free, what is your solution for incentivizing people to GM, since gaining access to uncommon/rare ancestries is the data demonstrated best way to get more people volunteering to GM?


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Blake's Tiger wrote:

I wish I had enough free time to search for an link all the pages and pages of forum discussion and Paizo blogs on this topic.

Humoring the premise that it is better for Organized Play to make all ancestries and heritages free, what is your solution for incentivizing people to GM, since gaining access to uncommon/rare ancestries is the data demonstrated best way to get more people volunteering to GM?

I didn’t say make all ancestries and heritages free, I said make more uncommon ancestries and heritages free

Keep rare ancestries/heritages behind ACP, and also have certain items be behind ACP. Maybe even keep rare backgrounds like blessed behind ACP. This would still incentivize people to GM while also giving players more options to play with. While making tieflings, Kitsune, Catfolk, iruxi and Tengu free will be better for pathfinder society overall, keeping things like automaton or skeleton locked to ACP will still incentivize people to GM.

As for me specifically, I just don’t think I’m gonna enjoy GMing in PFS no matter how many incentives is, for the same reason I don’t want to GM in D&D AL: I want creative freedom. When I GM for my D&D group, I am almost always gonna be doing a homebrew campaign or one shot

Obviously homebrew campaigns can’t work in PFS, but I feel if there was more leeway for GMs to be creative that might get me to GM. Cause I want to use my creativity, something I can do easily with playable characters since I can create their personality and backstory. Maybe I want to add nuance to a villain or add things to make them less black and white, or maybe if it’s an adventure path, I want to tie the characters into the overarching story and have them be connected to things, which might include making my own NPCs that weren’t originally in the adventure to better link a PC into the overall narrative beyond “oh they just showed up lol”. But that’s just me

But regardless, rare ancestries remaining locked behind ACP is incentive enough to get people to GM, while still allowing iruxi and tieflings and other ancestries people like free and overall better for players


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Doug Hahn wrote:
CaptainRelyk wrote:
Oh, then in that case there’s the reason for why tieflings are made free. Pathfinder Society (the in-universe group) are welcoming if tieflings, which attracts tieflings to them since a tiefling might have trouble finding work elsewhere

By this logic, everything should be free because the Society is welcoming to all ancestries.

If you have time to pick up a second game, feel free to GM and earn twice as fast. If you're concurrently GMing and playing you can get a lizardfolk relatively fast for your given speed (and it's all contextual right? It's not a race).

As I stated above, the issue with GMing is that I don’t feel like I’d have creative freedom when I have to follow a scenario word for word for word

Not to mention I have to prepare things and have notes and set things up whereas I don’t have to do much of that as a player. I don’t have time or energy in my life currently to GM

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Quote:
As I stated above, the issue with GMing is that I don’t feel like I’d have creative freedom when I have to follow a scenario word for word for word

You don't have to follow a scenario word for word. That is a common misconception about pfs but it wasn't ever really like that, not even in the 1e days.

Scenarios literally say "read or paraphrase on box text; c.f. creative solutions & table variation in the official guide.

That said if this is how you feel about GMing Society, I wonder why you even want to be on other side of the screen as a player — especially as you said you're heavy into roleplaying. Why not join a home game campaign instead? Heck… join two or three and play any ancestry you want; non-PFS PbP is vibrant and active on these forums as well as Discord and maybe that will serve your needs better.

In either environment… GMing is a lot of work, and games don't happen if we don't have GMs.

Grand Archive 4/5 5/55/5 *

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Yeah, I'm not sure society is ideal for what you want out of the game. "Role play heavy" is very much not what you are likely to experience in society play. It has happened with me on rare occasions, but far from regularly. I think you may be looking for something that society is very unlikely to give you.

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Or occasionally play PFS with the 80 acp PC, and focus mainly on a home game campaign.

I think I've had better luck with roleplay in PFS but it definitely scratches a different itch.

Wayfinders 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Contributor

I've also had better luck with roleplay in PFS, especially in Play-by-Post.

I am thinking that Relyk has expressed interest in both Starfinder and Pathfinder 2e. Why not make the 80 ACP Tiefling, and start a dragonkin for the SFS campaign? There are so many legal ancestries in SFS! Make your first two organized play characters and just start playing.

If you like Play-by-Post, make a couple Organized Play characters and try us out.

Hmm


Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

I've also had better luck with roleplay in PFS, especially in Play-by-Post.

I am thinking that Relyk has expressed interest in both Starfinder and Pathfinder 2e. Why not make the 80 ACP Tiefling, and start a dragonkin for the SFS campaign? There are so many legal ancestries in SFS! Make your first two organized play characters and just start playing.

If you like Play-by-Post, make a couple Organized Play characters and try us out.

Hmm

Yeah, I do want to experience PFS and the places I’m on value RP heavily, especially with them being PBP

I do really want to be a part of PFS, but I find the ancestries as they are now too restrictive. I want to see more uncommon ancestries/heritages become free (and NOT reduced in price)

I think stuff like automaton or skeleton should remain locked behind ACP, as they are outlandish enough to justify restricting them but also being something people are interested in and thus get people to GM

But ancestries like Iruxi or Kitsune, or lineages like Tiefling, should be made free. Not reduced in price, free.

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Your subjective concept of what should be free is just that. Org play is a worldwide program with a huge diversity of opinions.

Anyway, people here are politely trying to offer you explanations, solutions, and compromises; they can't change the PFS policy (and honestly: it probably won't change — at least not soon).

Lantern Lodge

Blake's Tiger wrote:
... since gaining access to uncommon/rare ancestries is the data demonstrated best way to get more people volunteering to GM?

Can link to that data? I don't remember it ever being demonstrated as true.

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Donald wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
... since gaining access to uncommon/rare ancestries is the data demonstrated best way to get more people volunteering to GM?
Can link to that data? I don't remember it ever being demonstrated as true.
Myself in the same post wrote:
I wish I had enough free time to search for an link all the pages and pages of forum discussion and Paizo blogs on this topic.

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