Quick Spring possible balance problems


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Creating a landing space for discussion on Quick Spring and possible balance problems and ruling considerations for that feat.


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I have a feel their intent was to give the character the possibility not to consider difficult terrain when moving through enemies.

I'd say that, as it is written, the feat is broken, but truth is it's way beyond that.


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To be honest, I hadn't even considered using the action:
a) Multiple times in one round.
b) Without moving through the space of an enemy and therefore not needing to make any skill check or risking failure which stops your movement and provokes reactions.

With those exploits removed, I don't think the feat is too bad. It is about on par with Sudden Charge.

Sudden Charge lets you do three actions worth of stuff in two actions. Basically you get a Stride action for free when you do a Stride and an Attack.

Quick Spring feels very similar in its base use case. You get two actions worth of stuff in one action. You get a Stride action for free when you do a Tumble Through.


Are you serious?
You are getting permanent quicknened condition used to stride

Quote:
You Stride up to your Speed. During this movement, you can try to move through the space of one enemy.

without the need to pass through enemies.

It has nothing in common with sudden charge.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

That's literally the point they just made. When used 'as intended' the feat is relatively fine. It's only the weird jank of being able to spam tumble even with no enemies around.

Change it to "when you succeed at an acrobatics check to tumble through" and it's just whatever.


HumbleGamer wrote:
Are you serious?

Yes, I am serious. After removing those exploits with errata or houserule to:

Quick Spring (with errata) wrote:

Frequency: once per round

When you Tumble Through and move through an enemy space, you Stride up to twice your Speed.

Then there are no problems.


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Squiggit wrote:

That's literally the point they just made. When used 'as intended' the feat is relatively fine. It's only the weird jank of being able to spam tumble even with no enemies around.

Change it to "when you succeed at an acrobatics check to tumble through" and it's just whatever.

It's still way too much considering it's a skill feat.

I'd rather modify it with "for each square you move through an enemy, you gain +5 extra movement speed".

This way the feat could be used to push towards more enemies, and its effectiveness would be not tied to exploits ( 1 squadre tumbled through for free haste! ) but on how many squares you actually tumbled through.

breithauptclan wrote:


Quick Spring (with errata) wrote:

Frequency: once per round

When you Tumble Through and move through an enemy space, you Stride up to twice your Speed.
Then there are no problems.

Limiting the extra free movement to once per round ( in a game where every round you cast a spell or attack twice ) ?

Not the best modify ever ( like trading 10 yd to get 40 yd meters ).


HumbleGamer wrote:

Are you serious?

You are getting permanent quicknened condition used to stride

It's not nearly that bad.

You still need to spend the action to make it happen. At worst it doubles your stride move

That's still pretty strong, but it's really not as bad as "have a free stride every round".


Sanityfaerie wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:

Are you serious?

You are getting permanent quicknened condition used to stride

It's not nearly that bad.

You still need to spend the action to make it happen.

I have to expend 1 action meant to stride to double my stride... seems legit.

and this stacks with the quickened condition.
and it's a skill feat ( not even an ancestry/class feat. a mere skill feat ).


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It is a skill feat that is part of an archetype - so make sure to factor in the cost of the Dedication class feat as well as the lockout of other Dedication feats until you take enough archetype feats.

Also, what are you meaning by stacking with Quickened? If you have Haste that allows a Stride action, you couldn't use Tumble Through or Quick Spring in place of Stride.


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breithauptclan wrote:

It is a skill feat that is part of an archetype - so make sure to factor in the cost of the Dedication class feat as well as the lockout of other Dedication feats until you take enough archetype feats.

Also, what are you meaning by stacking with Quickened? If you have Haste that allows a Stride action, you couldn't use Tumble Through or Quick Spring in place of Stride.

You also have to factor in it also requires you be a Member of the Firebrands at the rank of second mark or higher for access in addition to the dedication.


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graystone wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:

It is a skill feat that is part of an archetype - so make sure to factor in the cost of the Dedication class feat as well as the lockout of other Dedication feats until you take enough archetype feats.

Also, what are you meaning by stacking with Quickened? If you have Haste that allows a Stride action, you couldn't use Tumble Through or Quick Spring in place of Stride.

You also have to factor in it also requires you be a Member of the Firebrands at the rank of second mark or higher for access in addition to the dedication.

You also have to factor in that access is not a requirement, and GMs can just allow it without being a member of the firebrands at all. And to Breithauptchans original point, you need to keep in mind that acrobat is one of the best dedications in the game, so its much less of a cost than other architype feats.

Horizon Hunters

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Pronate11 wrote:
graystone wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:

It is a skill feat that is part of an archetype - so make sure to factor in the cost of the Dedication class feat as well as the lockout of other Dedication feats until you take enough archetype feats.

Also, what are you meaning by stacking with Quickened? If you have Haste that allows a Stride action, you couldn't use Tumble Through or Quick Spring in place of Stride.

You also have to factor in it also requires you be a Member of the Firebrands at the rank of second mark or higher for access in addition to the dedication.
You also have to factor in that access is not a requirement, and GMs can just allow it without being a member of the firebrands at all. And to Breithauptchans original point, you need to keep in mind that acrobat is one of the best dedications in the game, so its much less of a cost than other architype feats.

GMs can also ban it freely too.

By default it's uncommon, meaning you should be asking your GM about it anyway. If the GM is cool with it, there's no problems.


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Pronate11 wrote:
You also have to factor in that access is not a requirement, and GMs can just allow it without being a member of the firebrands at all.

Actually I do not have to factor that in: the Dm does and as such is in control over if and when I would get access so it's up to them to figure out if it's acceptable or not. As such, even if it was wildly overpowered, it's not an issue as it's all up to the Dm to allow it or any other uncommon element.


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So with multiple feats (dedication included) one can tumble through a single enemy, which requires a check, to stride at double movement speed. I am not sure where or how this is broken.


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Lucerious wrote:
So with multiple feats (dedication included) one can tumble through a single enemy, which requires a check to stride, at double movement speed. I am not sure where or how this is broken.

the problem isn't that you can move though a character and make a check, the problem is that you technically don't need to actually move though anyone's space when you tumble though, and if you never move though anyone's space, you never make a check. If you don't move though anyone's space, this is just "stride twice for 2 action" which is the busted part. If it actually required you to move though someone's space it wouldn't be busted.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Lucerious wrote:
So with multiple feats (dedication included) one can tumble through a single enemy, which requires a check, to stride at double movement speed. I am not sure where or how this is broken.

The jank comes because as written Tumble Through doesn't actually require you to tumble or make a check. The tumble part is optional and the bonus from the feat is not conditional on tumbling.

So you can "Tumble" three times in a row simply instead of a normal stride and never interact with the actual tumble mechanics.

... It's one of those things that's worth noting but probably not going to actually be relevant at most tables.


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The idea one can Tumble Through without actually tumbling through is by pure RAW true and obviously not RAI. I agree the rules written are wonky, but I do believe it isn’t a stretch to assume a present enemy and an acrobatics check would be necessary to perform the action.

However, RAW as it is without further consideration, I do agree it can be an issue.


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I'm also uncomfortable with the "if only an enemy were here I'd move much faster". If it is indeed the 'spring' which is supposed to be 'quick' then why not simply remove the difficult terrain aspect?
Or make it a Flourish since pretty much every ability that allows for an extra action is a Flourish? The feat should at least follow that default.

Seems a negligent oversight, with somebody's assumed RAI interfering with their ability to write a rigorous, balanced RAW.

ETA: I have a PC concept based around movement and it'd pretty much have to take Acrobat Dedication if only for this. That's a bad indicator. Most warriors Stride often, and if you don't have a competing Dedication you could double the distance for a mere 2nd level class & 13th level skill feat? That's a lot of range added & it works with Climb, Fly, & Swim too (if you already do those things).


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Lucerious wrote:

The idea one can Tumble Through without actually tumbling through is by pure RAW true and obviously not RAI. I agree the rules written are wonky, but I do believe it isn’t a stretch to assume a present enemy and an acrobatics check would be necessary to perform the action.

However, RAW as it is without further consideration, I do agree it can be an issue.

Yeah, the core activity needs errata honestly. It is obviously not intended that there is an action you can perform without actually intending to perform the action. This common sense interpretation is unfortunately not actually RAW so we just get people concerned about the RAW. I had never even considered the possibility that you could use Tumble Through without trying to Tumble Through until people started complaining about this feat.


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I also think the RAI is obvious and as such the GM can enforce it. If you have to Tumble Through it still is an excellent feat, maybe slightly too strong, but at least it's no more an unbalancing one.

It should be errataed, but there's no need to scream about it.


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Grankless wrote:
Yeah, the core activity needs errata honestly. It is obviously not intended that there is an action you can perform without actually intending to perform the action.

Tumble Through, itself, doesn't actually need errata. Though it wouldn't hurt.

Because if you spend one action on Tumble Through but don't move through an enemy's space and therefore don't need to make a skill check, then all you have done is a single action Stride - which you paid one action for.

It would prevent strange edge cases like this with Quick Spring if Tumble Through did actually require attempting to move through an enemy's space. If you don't want to attempt to move through an enemy's space, just use Stride.


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It's hard to actually errata Tumble Through. Stating that you have to move through an enemy's space when you Tumble Through means that if you get stopped (by Stand Still for example) then your move is no more valid. Or if, by moving to the enemy, you suddenly discover a new information that makes you change your mind you have to go on with your activity...
That's why it's written in this strange way.

But overall, Quick Spring is a weird feat. You get more movement by Tumbling Through an enemy than by not doing so. If you can do something when things are complicated, you should be able to do it when there's nothing complicated at all. You can even make up an invisible enemy in your way to use Quick Spring always (after all, this is not forbidden by the rules).

Sovereign Court

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I'd rewrite the feat entirely to:

Prerequisites: Acrobat Dedication, master in Acrobatics (which you get for free from the dedication at level 7)
Level: 7 (normal for a master skill feat)

Benefit: tumbling through enemies is not difficult terrain for you. When you successfully Tumble Through, you do not trigger reactions for moving out of threatened squares if that movement is into, through, or out of an enemy's space.

(Notice that the original feat's flavor text talks about being faster than enemies can react, but without supporting mechanics.)


Ascalaphus wrote:

I'd rewrite the feat entirely to:

Prerequisites: Acrobat Dedication, master in Acrobatics (which you get for free from the dedication at level 7)
Level: 7 (normal for a master skill feat)

Benefit: tumbling through enemies is not difficult terrain for you. When you successfully Tumble Through, you do not trigger reactions for moving out of threatened squares if that movement is into, through, or out of an enemy's space.

(Notice that the original feat's flavor text talks about being faster than enemies can react, but without supporting mechanics.)

Still too much, as it invalidates vexing tumble, which is a 1) class feat 2) from a specific class ( and makes you stride half your speed, not to trigger reactions, but you still consider the enemy difficult terrain).

It would be easier to give e the firebrand archetype vexing tumble as a class feat by lvl 8 or lvl 10.

And a lvl 7 skill feat available for everyone, that only allows you not to consider enemy space difficult terrain ( this way you won't force what might be essential into a specific archetype ).

There shouldn't be a skill feat way,way more better than a class feat.


HumbleGamer wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:

I'd rewrite the feat entirely to:

Prerequisites: Acrobat Dedication, master in Acrobatics (which you get for free from the dedication at level 7)
Level: 7 (normal for a master skill feat)

Benefit: tumbling through enemies is not difficult terrain for you. When you successfully Tumble Through, you do not trigger reactions for moving out of threatened squares if that movement is into, through, or out of an enemy's space.

(Notice that the original feat's flavor text talks about being faster than enemies can react, but without supporting mechanics.)

Still too much, as it invalidates vexing tumble, which is a 1) class feat 2) from a specific class ( and makes you stride half your speed, not to trigger reactions, but you still consider the enemy difficult terrain).

It would be easier to give e the firebrand archetype vexing tumble as a class feat by lvl 8 or lvl 10.

And a lvl 7 skill feat available for everyone, that only allows you not to consider enemy space difficult terrain ( this way you won't force what might be essential into a specific archetype ).

There shouldn't be a skill feat way,way more better than a class feat.

You need to reread that feat once and reexamine it and what it can do. You don't take it to get around reactions...

"Stride up to half your Speed and roll an Acrobatics check. Compare the result to the Reflex DC of each foe whose reach you began in or enter during the movement, in sequence.

Critical Success This movement doesn't trigger reactions from the foe, the foe is flat-footed to you until the end of your turn, and you gain panache.
Success This movement doesn't trigger reactions from the foe, and you gain panache."

It's a new way to get panache and IS NOT a Tumble Through: with it you can get panache when you cannot tumble through because of space restrictions, positioning, ect. as all you need if to be within reach. As such, it's not a very good comparison point for something that modifies tumble through.


graystone wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:

I'd rewrite the feat entirely to:

Prerequisites: Acrobat Dedication, master in Acrobatics (which you get for free from the dedication at level 7)
Level: 7 (normal for a master skill feat)

Benefit: tumbling through enemies is not difficult terrain for you. When you successfully Tumble Through, you do not trigger reactions for moving out of threatened squares if that movement is into, through, or out of an enemy's space.

(Notice that the original feat's flavor text talks about being faster than enemies can react, but without supporting mechanics.)

Still too much, as it invalidates vexing tumble, which is a 1) class feat 2) from a specific class ( and makes you stride half your speed, not to trigger reactions, but you still consider the enemy difficult terrain).

It would be easier to give e the firebrand archetype vexing tumble as a class feat by lvl 8 or lvl 10.

And a lvl 7 skill feat available for everyone, that only allows you not to consider enemy space difficult terrain ( this way you won't force what might be essential into a specific archetype ).

There shouldn't be a skill feat way,way more better than a class feat.

You need to reread that feat once and reexamine it and what it can do. You don't take it to get around reactions...

"Stride up to half your Speed and roll an Acrobatics check. Compare the result to the Reflex DC of each foe whose reach you began in or enter during the movement, in sequence.

Critical Success This movement doesn't trigger reactions from the foe, the foe is flat-footed to you until the end of your turn, and you gain panache.
Success This movement doesn't trigger reactions from the foe, and you gain panache."

It's a new way to get panache and IS NOT a Tumble Through: with it you can get panache when you cannot tumble through because of space restrictions, positioning, ect. as all you need if to be within reach. As such, it's not a very good comparison point for something...

It doesn't change a thing.

Mechanically speaking a swashbuckler, which is a specific class, expends a lvl 6 class feat to get an exclusive mechanic.

Class feats are tier 1 feats:

Tier 1) Class Feats
Tier 2) Ancestry Feats
Tier 3) General Feats
Tier 4) Skill feats

The feat itself allows to tumble through, trading speed in order to avoid reactions. On a critical success it makes the target flat footed, but it's not the main purpose here ( the feat point is not triggering reactions while performing tumble through, even if it's called in a different way ).

Making acrobatics not triggering reactions while not considering difficulty terrain any enemy space, does what vexing tumble does, but in WAY better way, at no almost cost ( a skill feat si worth "nothing" compared to a class feat ).

And that's it.

Want to emulate a lvl 6 specific class feat?
You'd need a lvl 8+ archetype "CLASS FEAT".
Want to make it even better?
You'd need a higher level Archetype "CLASS FEAT".

Or, alternatively, a skill feat that enhances an existing feat.

But in no situation, given how 2e works, a skill feat is allowed to be better than a CLASS FEAT, regardless the former's level.


it is level 13, which is only 2 before legendary skill feats which should be impressive.

i would be ok with it if it always required a check.

something like a normal/hard acrobatics check to basically cartweel faster than you can walk. If you fail you move half, if you succeed you move double, if you critically fail you drop prone.

something like that.


shroudb wrote:

it is level 13, which is only 2 before legendary skill feats which should be impressive.

there are no feats requiring MASTER ( you can hit 3 skill at master by lvl 13, with any character ) that are impressive. Not a single one ( maybe battlecry? not even sure, because you might end up being far from 30yd from the enemy when the combat starts ).

Being a lvl 15 feat ( requiring legendary ) might allow for a better trade off:

- higher level
- competes with other legendary skills
- competes with other skill increase ( unless "acrobat" specific. In that case it would be possible to hit legendary with 2 skills by lvl 15 ).

By that time, for example, a swashbuckler might consider retraining vexing tumble in order to get an upgrade ( removing the speed penalty, and getting back a free lvl 6 feat ).


HumbleGamer wrote:
shroudb wrote:

it is level 13, which is only 2 before legendary skill feats which should be impressive.

there are no feats requiring MASTER ( you can hit 3 skill at master by lvl 13, with any character ) that are impressive. Not a single one ( maybe battlecry? not even sure, because you might end up being far from 30yd from the enemy when the combat starts ).

Being a lvl 15 feat ( requiring legendary ) might allow for a better trade off:

- higher level
- competes with other legendary skills
- competes with other skill increase ( unless "acrobat" specific. In that case it would be possible to hit legendary with 2 skills by lvl 15 ).

By that time, for example, a swashbuckler might consider retraining vexing tumble in order to get an upgrade ( removing the speed penalty, and getting back a free lvl 6 feat ).

it doesnt really matter if it's master or legendary because the Acrobat already gives you autoscaling to legendary.

(i mean, it is a feat in the Acrobat dedication already, you spend nothing on the skill increases already)

it is disengeneous to pile on the master requirement which for the vast majority of skill feats means level 7 to get it, when it's hard capped to level 13 mnimum.

especially since the skill increase is a nonfactor since you are already getting that for free.


shroudb wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
shroudb wrote:

it is level 13, which is only 2 before legendary skill feats which should be impressive.

there are no feats requiring MASTER ( you can hit 3 skill at master by lvl 13, with any character ) that are impressive. Not a single one ( maybe battlecry? not even sure, because you might end up being far from 30yd from the enemy when the combat starts ).

Being a lvl 15 feat ( requiring legendary ) might allow for a better trade off:

- higher level
- competes with other legendary skills
- competes with other skill increase ( unless "acrobat" specific. In that case it would be possible to hit legendary with 2 skills by lvl 15 ).

By that time, for example, a swashbuckler might consider retraining vexing tumble in order to get an upgrade ( removing the speed penalty, and getting back a free lvl 6 feat ).

it doesnt really matter if it's master or legendary because the Acrobat already gives you autoscaling to legendary.

it is disengeneous to pile on the master requirement which for the vast majority of skill feats means level 7 to get it, when it's hard capped to level 13 mnimum.

especially since the skill increase is a nonfactor since you are already getting that for free.

Check the post you answered, and you'll see I mentioned the Skill requirement in case the feat would have been given to all characters, and not only acrobats.

Quote:
- competes with other skill increase ( unless "acrobat" specific. In that case it would be possible to hit legendary with 2 skills by lvl 15 ).

Making it a lvl 13 one would impact positively on humans ( nothing really new here ) given the fact they can trade for general ones and get it 1 level earlier than other non skillmonkey classes.

But again, the point is that if it's something too good and not in line with other skill feats, it should at least be legendary.

Currently, there are 2 alternatives:

-Tumble through
-Vexing tumble

The former is accessible to anybody, the latter is a class feat given to a unique class ( halves the character speed in order not to trigger reactions ).

This one ( quick spring ), even removing the double stride ( I think any of us agrees on this, at least ), would give way better benefit than a specific class feat ( requirements are not worth mentioning, because who wants to use tumblethroguh will, obviously, improve acrobatics ).

And, again, it takes up a mere useless skill feat rather than a class feat.

Leaving apart that the alternatives in terms of Master skill feats are not even comparable to the benefits this one gives.


HumbleGamer wrote:
Want to emulate a lvl 6 specific class feat?

This is where you missed my point: Quick Spring and vexing tumble aren't emulating or invalidating each other. Vexing tumble does a very specific thing for swashbucklers, which is another way to gain panache and as such, it makes total sense for it to be a class feat. Quick Spring does absolutely nothing special for any class and is an uncommon, organization locked skill feat that requires an archetype to take and is 2 levels lower than the level a LEVEL ONE feat, cat fall, allows you to fall from outer space, do a superhero landing on your feat and take no damage...

HumbleGamer wrote:
The former is accessible to anybody, the latter is a class feat given to a unique class ( halves the character speed in order not to trigger reactions ).

Again, the speed and not triggering are totally beside the point. It's a new way to gain panache that as a bonus allows movement that avoids triggers.

HumbleGamer wrote:
This one ( quick spring ), even removing the double stride ( I think any of us agrees on this, at least ), would give way better benefit than a specific class feat ( requirements are not worth mentioning, because who wants to use tumblethroguh will, obviously, improve acrobatics ).

NO, it doesn't as you keep ignoring that it's main use is to gain panache: as such, Quick Spring DOES NOT give you better benefits but DIFFERENT benefits. Even at x4 movement, it still doesn't give you panache and that's what powers the swashbuckler.


Tumble through gives panache to any swashbuckler that succeed... regardless their style...


HumbleGamer wrote:
The feat itself allows to tumble through, trading speed in order to avoid reactions.

No, it definitely does not. Please re-read the feat. It gives you (half-) Stride. Only Stride. No moving through enemies at all. And everything else written in the feat is only consistent with that: just moving in reach of enemies, not through them.

Unless there's some feature of Swashbuckler that makes every Stride Tumble Through, but I haven't heard of it :)


Errenor wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
The feat itself allows to tumble through, trading speed in order to avoid reactions.

No, it definitely does not. Please re-read the feat. It gives you (half-) Stride. Only Stride. No moving through enemies at all. And everything else written in the feat is only consistent with that: just moving in reach of enemies, not through them.

Unless there's some feature of Swashbuckler that makes every Stride Tumble Through, but I haven't heard of it :)

Good point but, unfortunately, it makes it even worse.

with vexing tumble you are not allowed to pass through, but just next(within the enemy reach ).

So it's an additional malus for vexing tumble which, indirectly, would make the quick spring even better.

Another extremely solid reason not to make it a master acrobatics skill feat.


HumbleGamer wrote:
Good point but, unfortunately, it makes it even worse.

No, it only makes it worse if you are looking for a movement/tumble through enhancer feat. It's MUCH, MUCH better if you are looking for a feat that gets you another way to get panache.

HumbleGamer wrote:
with vexing tumble you are not allowed to pass through, but just next(within the enemy reach ).

That's a GOOD thing as you already can gain panache for tumbling though.

HumbleGamer wrote:
So it's an additional malus for vexing tumble which, indirectly, would make the quick spring even better.

Just... No. AGAIN, quick spring doesn't get you another way to get panache: as such, it's a MUCH worse feat if you can't tumble though and need panache.

HumbleGamer wrote:
Another extremely solid reason not to make it a master acrobatics skill feat.

You're comparing apples and oranges here: they are 2 different feats that give you 2 different things that are only tangentially similar so it's not a solid reason but a flimsy one IMO. You're treating a 'get new panache gaining ability' as a 'tumble through improving' feat' and ignoring the 'get new panache gaining ability'.


HumbleGamer wrote:
shroudb wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
shroudb wrote:

it is level 13, which is only 2 before legendary skill feats which should be impressive.

there are no feats requiring MASTER ( you can hit 3 skill at master by lvl 13, with any character ) that are impressive. Not a single one ( maybe battlecry? not even sure, because you might end up being far from 30yd from the enemy when the combat starts ).

Being a lvl 15 feat ( requiring legendary ) might allow for a better trade off:

- higher level
- competes with other legendary skills
- competes with other skill increase ( unless "acrobat" specific. In that case it would be possible to hit legendary with 2 skills by lvl 15 ).

By that time, for example, a swashbuckler might consider retraining vexing tumble in order to get an upgrade ( removing the speed penalty, and getting back a free lvl 6 feat ).

it doesnt really matter if it's master or legendary because the Acrobat already gives you autoscaling to legendary.

it is disengeneous to pile on the master requirement which for the vast majority of skill feats means level 7 to get it, when it's hard capped to level 13 mnimum.

especially since the skill increase is a nonfactor since you are already getting that for free.

Check the post you answered, and you'll see I mentioned the Skill requirement in case the feat would have been given to all characters, and not only acrobats.

Quote:
- competes with other skill increase ( unless "acrobat" specific. In that case it would be possible to hit legendary with 2 skills by lvl 15 ).

Making it a lvl 13 one would impact positively on humans ( nothing really new here ) given the fact they can trade for general ones and get it 1 level earlier than other non skillmonkey classes.

But again, the point is that if it's something too good and not in line with other skill feats, it should at least be legendary.

Currently, there are 2 alternatives:

-Tumble through
-Vexing tumble

The former is...

what are you even talking about?

read again what you quoted me on.
i nver made it anything close to vexing tumble, like they are two extremely different things.

i said that it would need a check to tumble, but never mentioned anything else than the base functionality of the feat as written. no other modifications like no reactions and etc.

as it is, as a level 13 skill feat, IF it always required a check, it would be ok imo for an archetype to have:
gamble on either double or half movement on a check.


shroudb wrote:
it doesnt really matter if it's master or legendary because the Acrobat already gives you autoscaling to legendary.
Quote:
- competes with other skill increase ( unless "acrobat" specific. In that case it would be possible to hit legendary with 2 skills by lvl 15 ).


graystone wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
Good point but, unfortunately, it makes it even worse.

No, it only makes it worse if you are looking for a movement/tumble through enhancer feat. It's MUCH, MUCH better if you are looking for a feat that gets you another way to get panache.

HumbleGamer wrote:
with vexing tumble you are not allowed to pass through, but just next(within the enemy reach ).

That's a GOOD thing as you already can gain panache for tumbling though.

HumbleGamer wrote:
So it's an additional malus for vexing tumble which, indirectly, would make the quick spring even better.

Just... No. AGAIN, quick spring doesn't get you another way to get panache: as such, it's a MUCH worse feat if you can't tumble though and need panache.

HumbleGamer wrote:
Another extremely solid reason not to make it a master acrobatics skill feat.
You're comparing apples and oranges here: they are 2 different feats that give you 2 different things that are only tangentially similar so it's not a solid reason but a flimsy one IMO. You're treating a 'get new panache gaining ability' as a 'tumble through improving' feat' and ignoring the 'get new panache gaining ability'.

A swashbuckler gets panache on success Tumble through or Vexing tumble.

They roll the same skill against the same DC.

The former would give, with what you propose:

- full speed ( vs half speed )
- no reaction ( equals to vexing tumble )
- chances to move through enemies ( vexing tumble doesn't allow it )
- gain panache on success ( equals to vexing tumble )
- skill feat ( vs exclusive class feat )
- not having panache the moment you try to gain it, you don't benefit from panache extra speed ( making the halven speed even worse ).

Now explain me how it would be different in any way apart from the fact that with vexing you have to pass next and with tumble through you have to enter the enemy space ( 1 square is enough ).

There is no difference at all if you roll a success with one or the other, apart from the fact one is way much better and given for free.


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HumbleGamer wrote:
shroudb wrote:
it doesnt really matter if it's master or legendary because the Acrobat already gives you autoscaling to legendary.
Quote:
- competes with other skill increase ( unless "acrobat" specific. In that case it would be possible to hit legendary with 2 skills by lvl 15 ).

and all that has absolutelyt nothing to do with vexing tumble.

it is a level 13 feat that gives a chance for double speed or chance to half speed/fall.

that's good enough for level 13 without being broken.

p.s. you dont need to keep posting about "copetes with skill increases if.." thing since that doesnt apply at all.

IT IS Acrobat specific.


HumbleGamer wrote:

A swashbuckler gets panache on success Tumble through or Vexing tumble.

They roll the same skill against the same DC.

Yes but what they have to do is different: in one they have to move THROUGH the enemy space while the other requires just moving through it's reach. As such, it's giving a more accessible way to gain panache.

HumbleGamer wrote:
Now explain me how it would be different in any way apart from the fact that with vexing you have to pass next and with tumble through you have to enter the enemy space ( 1 square is enough ).

No, that's how it's different.

HumbleGamer wrote:
There is no difference at all if you roll a success with one or the other, apart from the fact one is way much better and given for free.

It's only better if what you want to do is move through an enemy space: it's worse if you don't. For instance, when given the choice between tumbling through enemy space into a position that makes you flanked my multiple creatures or moving though an enemies reach to a space where only one creature can attack you, you aren't thinking it "way better' to get yourself flanked.


shroudb wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
shroudb wrote:
it doesnt really matter if it's master or legendary because the Acrobat already gives you autoscaling to legendary.
Quote:
- competes with other skill increase ( unless "acrobat" specific. In that case it would be possible to hit legendary with 2 skills by lvl 15 ).

and all that has absolutelyt nothing to do with vexing tumble.

it is a level 13 feat that gives a chance for double speed or chance to half speed/fall.

that's good enough for level 13 without being broken.

I agree to disagree about the feat bein good enough, but apart from that you weren't referring to vexing tumble, but to the acrobat dedication.

I wrote "Unless you leave it exclusive to the acrobat class, making it legendary would force the character to choose whether to increase, by lvl 15, acrobatics or another skill".

And you answered "it doesn't matter the rank! Acrobat dedication autoscale to legendary!"

I mean, yeah?


graystone wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:

A swashbuckler gets panache on success Tumble through or Vexing tumble.

They roll the same skill against the same DC.

Yes but what they have to do is different: in one they have to move THROUGH the enemy space while the other requires just moving through it's reach. As such, it's giving a more accessible way to gain panache.

HumbleGamer wrote:
Now explain me how it would be different in any way apart from the fact that with vexing you have to pass next and with tumble through you have to enter the enemy space ( 1 square is enough ).

No, that's how it's different.

HumbleGamer wrote:
There is no difference at all if you roll a success with one or the other, apart from the fact one is way much better and given for free.
It's only better if what you want to do is move through an enemy space: it's better if you don't. For instance, when given the choice between tumbling through enemy space into a position that makes you flanked my multiple creatures or moving though an enemies reach to a space where only one creature can attack you, you aren't thinking it "way better' to get yourself flanked.

I want to make this clear.

I understood the "difference" the moment Errenor pointed that out.

What I am trying to say is that "difference" is not a real one.

Swashbuckler with 40 speed using tumble through: i stride up to my speed then enter an enemy square ( 5yd, because "no difficult terrain" would be given to the quick spring ) and 5 to exit it, resulting in 30 yd left.

Swashbuckler with 40 speed ends up with 20 movement speed trying to gain panache.

The result would always be the swashbuckler not within the enemy square, but probably within some enemy square ( not necessarily the one they tumbled through or vexed tumble ).

Having a higher speed would be always better in terms of positioning and action management.

And I am not even considering that one would be a skill feat and the other won't.

So I can't really see the fact one passes next and the other has to move inside an enemy a disadvantage ( though it's an advantage being able to pass through if needed ).

To sum up, anybody will always go for tumble through because it would be more convenient for several reason.

Ps: I might understand an "upgrade" for a lvl 6 class feat, but this being an exclusive skill feat given to one of the best archetypes ( that already has a skill feat ) is way too much ( i see only advantages ).


HumbleGamer wrote:
To sum up, anybody will always go for tumble through because it would be more convenient for several reason.

Well, I agree with you that Vexing Tumble is not a new and more convenient way to get panache: it's still old Acrobatics vs Reflex DC check. But I don't agree with your conclusion. Vexing Tumble has two advantages: it doesn't stop you on failed check and it's a way to get panache with a chance to avoid reactions, which is valuable.


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Ignoring the whole Vexing Tumble discussion and trying to get this back on track, the only problems I see with Quick Spring are doing it multiple times in a round and doing it without an enemy.

Someone already proposed the appropriate solution (IMO) which is add the flourish trait and change the rules to say something of the effect of you don't treat enemies as difficult terrain when tumbling and get rid of the "stride up to twice your speed".

Actually by getting rid of the stride twice part, you don't even need to worry about flourish. So yeah, just get rid of the stride twice part and say you don't treat enemies as difficult terrain. Fixed.


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Claxon wrote:
just get rid of the stride twice part and say you don't treat enemies as difficult terrain. Fixed.

That'd be excellent.


For a slightly higher powered version, you could have Quick Spring give you a free action to tumble through with the flourish trait (again lacking the verbiage of striding twice) and say they don't treat enemies as difficult terrain while tumbling through (in general, not just when using the free action). It's like a more limited quickened condition.

Although it probably requires some sort of clarification to Tumbling Through that it requires an enemy to go through, which seems to have some issue according to a poster above.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'd rather see a frequency notation than a flourish since that interacts badly with other actions.

"Just get rid of stride twice" is a weird sentiment too when that's the whole point of the feat as written.

Literally the only problem with the feat is the RAW jank around spamming tumble through in open space. All these attempts to 'fix' it by replacing it with an entirely different feat seems unnecessary.


Squiggit wrote:

I'd rather see a frequency notation than a flourish since that interacts badly with other actions.

"Just get rid of stride twice" is a weird sentiment too when that's literally the whole point of the feat as written.

Literally the only problem with the feat is the RAW jank around spamming tumble through in open space. All these attempts to 'fix' it by replacing it with an entirely different feat seems unnecessary.

Agreed! Fix Tumble Through and the rest falls into place.


Squiggit wrote:

I'd rather see a frequency notation than a flourish since that interacts badly with other actions.

"Just get rid of stride twice" is a weird sentiment too when that's the whole point of the feat as written.

Literally the only problem with the feat is the RAW jank around spamming tumble through in open space. All these attempts to 'fix' it by replacing it with an entirely different feat seems unnecessary.

I hadn't thought about the flourish trait blocking you from doing other actions with the flourish trait, just about blocking you from using the same action again. That's valid.

I do think however that striding twice isn't the point of the feat. I think it was an attempt to negate the penalty of difficult terrain by increasing the users speed, except that for the most part it just turns into a speed buff.

To me it's more janky to say "you can move twice, but only when you tumble through an enemy who will slow you down when you move through their squares. but you can't do this at all when there's no enemy around". By the game rules sure that works fine, but it makes no sense that whatever you're doing to move through an enemy that allows you to move faster than normal can't be done when there isn't an enemy to move through. And that's the problem I have. That's why the stride twice part has to go in my opinion. It should have never been there in the first place.

It's also why I suggested replacing it with a different version of the feat that let you tumble through once as a free action (but required an enemy to actually do it) and also generally let's you tumble through enemies without treating them as difficult terrain.

It's still a little awkward on "why do i get this extra action when an enemy is nearby vs not" but it's less egregious than the previous issue.

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