Unleash Psyche and Daze


Rules Discussion

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Scarab Sages

One of the requirements of Unleash Psyche is that it "applies only to spells that don't have a duration". The Daze cantrip has a listed duration of "1 round". The only lasting effect is on a critical failure, in which case the target is "stunned 1". I assume that this means the stunned condition only lasts one round. However, the Chill Touch cantrip does not list a duration, but in its description, it says that the target is "enfeebled 1 for 1 round" on a critical failure. So Daze and Chill Touch are very similar in this regard, but Daze has a listed duration and Chill Touch does not.

I ask because with a listed duration, Daze would not be eligible for the benefits of Unleash Psyche (RAW). Is this the intended effect?


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RAW: You can't for both.
RAI: You can for both. My understand is that the main idea of "spells that don't have a duration" is to prevent to give the damage bonus to persistence damage or any other spell that does some extra damage more than once. This isn't the case of these both spells.
Balance: Same as RAI. You won't break the game just because your Daze done some extra dmg via Unleash.


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YuriP wrote:
RAW: You can't for both.

Not sure about Chill Touch. The spell itself doesn't list a duration, so it should qualify. The additional effect has a duration, but it doesn't do damage anyway.

YuriP wrote:
Balance: Same as RAI. You won't break the game just because your Daze done some extra dmg via Unleash.

In addition to not breaking anything by allowing it, I would note that not allowing it makes the Psychic less powerful than it seems like it was intended to be.

The limitation on the damage increase from Unleash is probably meant to prevent boosting damage on things like Spiritual Weapon that can do damage repeatedly. Any spell that only does damage once should be fine.


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Yeah, I'm going to call Daze having a duration a typo, because there is no lasting effect that the spell creates for it to warrant a duration. And no, Stunned 1 isn't an effect with a duration, it's a condition applied that lasts until you lose 1 action at the time you gain actions, no different than persistent damage from spells like Acid Arrow.

As for Chill Touch, saying that the Enfeebled 1 for 1 Round counts as a duration makes no sense when Daze has a Duration entry at the top (with no actual specified duration), whereas Chill Touch does not, and only specifies the condition itself having a duration (which applies regardless of however long the initial spell lasts). It also creates this weird draw where Unleash Psyche works if the enemy only fails (and not critically fails) the save, which makes the ability more complicated than necessary to run.


Prosybris wrote:

One of the requirements of Unleash Psyche is that it "applies only to spells that don't have a duration". The Daze cantrip has a listed duration of "1 round". The only lasting effect is on a critical failure, in which case the target is "stunned 1". I assume that this means the stunned condition only lasts one round. However, the Chill Touch cantrip does not list a duration, but in its description, it says that the target is "enfeebled 1 for 1 round" on a critical failure. So Daze and Chill Touch are very similar in this regard, but Daze has a listed duration and Chill Touch does not.

I ask because with a listed duration, Daze would not be eligible for the benefits of Unleash Psyche (RAW). Is this the intended effect?

I can't say if it's intended, but it's the case.

To understand the difference between both spells from a mechanical point of view, one need to read the rules about duration. The rules state that an effect can have a longer duration than the spell and it then becomes an ongoing effect, a non-magical consequence to the spell, like the Fireball putting a library on fire.

In the case of Chill Touch, the Enfeebled condition is an ongoing effect as its duration is higher than Chill Touch's. So it's an instant spell that benefit from Unleash Psyche.
In the case of Daze, the Stunned condition is a direct effect of the spell. As such, if you use Dispel Magic, you can free the target from the Stunned condition. Unfortunately, it also means that Daze doesn't benefit from Unleash Psyche. It's a bit unfortunate, as the normal effect of the spell doesn't do anything with a duration.

Scarab Sages

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SuperBidi wrote:


In the case of Chill Touch, the Enfeebled condition is an ongoing effect as its duration is higher than Chill Touch's. So it's an instant spell that benefit from Unleash Psyche.
In the case of Daze, the Stunned condition is a direct effect of the spell.

Not sure I understand this differentiation. To get stunned with Daze, you have to critically fail a saving throw. To get enfeebled with Chill Touch, you have to critically fail a saving throw. Both conditions appear to be a side effect of the spell after taking damage.

Thanks for the responses, everyone.


The distinction is mostly just silly.

Basically the spell itself only lasts for its stated duration. Effects that it causes can last longer than the spell does, but those effects are not magical.

So Chill Touch can cause a non-magical Enfeebled condition and the spell itself has no duration.

Daze does have a duration even if it has no effects that last that long. If it does happen to cause the Stunned 1 condition, that condition will be magical in nature.


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SuperBidi wrote:
Prosybris wrote:

One of the requirements of Unleash Psyche is that it "applies only to spells that don't have a duration". The Daze cantrip has a listed duration of "1 round". The only lasting effect is on a critical failure, in which case the target is "stunned 1". I assume that this means the stunned condition only lasts one round. However, the Chill Touch cantrip does not list a duration, but in its description, it says that the target is "enfeebled 1 for 1 round" on a critical failure. So Daze and Chill Touch are very similar in this regard, but Daze has a listed duration and Chill Touch does not.

I ask because with a listed duration, Daze would not be eligible for the benefits of Unleash Psyche (RAW). Is this the intended effect?

I can't say if it's intended, but it's the case.

To understand the difference between both spells from a mechanical point of view, one need to read the rules about duration. The rules state that an effect can have a longer duration than the spell and it then becomes an ongoing effect, a non-magical consequence to the spell, like the Fireball putting a library on fire.

In the case of Chill Touch, the Enfeebled condition is an ongoing effect as its duration is higher than Chill Touch's. So it's an instant spell that benefit from Unleash Psyche.
In the case of Daze, the Stunned condition is a direct effect of the spell. As such, if you use Dispel Magic, you can free the target from the Stunned condition. Unfortunately, it also means that Daze doesn't benefit from Unleash Psyche. It's a bit unfortunate, as the normal effect of the spell doesn't do anything with a duration.

I'm not sure that's what the rules say. Here's for reference on Spell Durations:

Durations p. 304 wrote:

The duration of a spell is how long the spell effect lasts. Spells that last for more than an instant have a Duration entry. A spell might last until the start or end of a turn, for some number of rounds, for minutes, or even longer. If a spell’s duration is given in rounds, the number of rounds remaining decreases by 1 at the start of each of the spellcaster’s turns, ending when the duration reaches 0.

Some spells have effects that remain even after the spell’s magic is gone. Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical. For instance, a spell that creates a loud sound and has no duration might deafen someone for a time, even permanently. This deafness couldn’t be counteracted because it is not itself magical (though it might be cured by other magic, such as restore senses).

If a spell’s caster dies or is incapacitated during the spell’s duration, the spell remains in effect till its duration ends. You might need to keep track of the caster’s initiative after they stopped being able to act to monitor spell durations.

So the rules here confirm that a spell that isn't instantaneous will have a Duration entry. Otherwise, it's considered an instantaneous effect.

It then says that spells with effects after they have been cast (if they don't have a duration, anyway,) don't count as magical, meaning even your example of utilizing Dispel Magic to counteract the Stunned condition from Daze doesn't work, simply because being Stunned 1 isn't tied to the spell's duration (i.e. saying "Stunned 1 for 1 round"), rather from critically failing the saving throw. This means that the spell effect ceases to be magical, and therefore Dispel Magic would not apply. For reference with the Stunned condition:

Stunned wrote:

You've become senseless. You can't act while stunned. Stunned usually includes a value, which indicates how many total actions you lose, possibly over multiple turns, from being stunned. Each time you regain actions (such as at the start of your turn), reduce the number you regain by your stunned value, then reduce your stunned value by the number of actions you lost. For example, if you were stunned 4, you would lose all 3 of your actions on your turn, reducing you to stunned 1; on your next turn, you would lose 1 more action, and then be able to use your remaining 2 actions normally. Stunned might also have a duration instead of a value, such as “stunned for 1 minute.” In this case, you lose all your actions for the listed duration.

So, Stunned has two methods of existing. If Stunned has a duration, it lasts for that duration, and if it has a value, it lasts until you lose the actions (or the condition). Being Stunned 1 isn't the same as being Stunned for 1 round, as one is a value, the other is a duration, which means the idea that Stunned 1 counts as a duration is debunked with this rule presented.

Like I said, it's quite clear that Daze has a typo, because it doesn't have any form of ongoing effect, and as demonstrated above, Stunned 1 isn't a duration-based effect; it lasts until you lose the relevant number of actions. It could be 1 round, it could be more than one round, but the fact that it's not measured in rounds is proof enough that Stunned 1 from Daze isn't a duration-based effect, and the damage is likewise instantaneous (it's not delayed to take place one round later, for example).


YuriP wrote:

RAW: You can't for both.

RAI: You can for both. My understand is that the main idea of "spells that don't have a duration" is to prevent to give the damage bonus to persistence damage or any other spell that does some extra damage more than once. This isn't the case of these both spells.
Balance: Same as RAI. You won't break the game just because your Daze done some extra dmg via Unleash.

what's funny, is that spells like Blistering Invective, which actually deal damage over time, actually benefit from the Unleash since the effect of the spell is instantaneous (it just inflicts persistent damage which by default can last longer than 1 round)

Scarab Sages

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


So, Stunned has two methods of existing. If Stunned has a duration, it lasts for that duration, and if it has a value, it lasts until you lose the actions (or the condition). Being Stunned 1 isn't the same as being Stunned for 1 round, as one is a value, the other is a duration, which means the idea that Stunned 1 counts as a duration is debunked with this rule presented.

Thank you, Darksol, this seems definitive to me that there is a mistake here. Either Daze should not have a duration, or they meant that it should have been "stunned for 1 round". This seems overly powerful for a cantrip, so I think it makes more sense that the duration is incorrect in this case.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Yeah, strictly speaking the duration means Daze doesn't work, but it's also somewhat nonsensical because the duration on Daze is largely meaningless. Outside this specific question it will almost never come up.


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shroudb wrote:
YuriP wrote:

RAW: You can't for both.

RAI: You can for both. My understand is that the main idea of "spells that don't have a duration" is to prevent to give the damage bonus to persistence damage or any other spell that does some extra damage more than once. This isn't the case of these both spells.
Balance: Same as RAI. You won't break the game just because your Daze done some extra dmg via Unleash.
what's funny, is that spells like Blistering Invective, which actually deal damage over time, actually benefit from the Unleash since the effect of the spell is instantaneous (it just inflicts persistent damage which by default can last longer than 1 round)

Blistering Invective is a perfect point of discussion. It's an Occult Spell (so it's easily accessible to psychic), it's a "damage spell" (deal 2d6 persistent fire damage) and don't have duration. But as GM I won't accept as an eligible to receive the Unleash Psyche because it's damage is persistence (and add the status bonus to a persistence spell would end very broken) and at same time "gain a status bonus to its damage equal to double the spell's level" to a spell that don't do any damage immediately when casting (and there's even if some one try to just give this bonus damage when the spell is casted by RAW we don't have what damage type is).

Anyway I read some time in the past someone saying that persistent damage aren't really a "damage" from the spell but a condition that does damage. This may be used as base to deny the Unleash dmg bonus to it. (yet this "condition" doubles in a crit by default)


YuriP wrote:
shroudb wrote:
YuriP wrote:

RAW: You can't for both.

RAI: You can for both. My understand is that the main idea of "spells that don't have a duration" is to prevent to give the damage bonus to persistence damage or any other spell that does some extra damage more than once. This isn't the case of these both spells.
Balance: Same as RAI. You won't break the game just because your Daze done some extra dmg via Unleash.
what's funny, is that spells like Blistering Invective, which actually deal damage over time, actually benefit from the Unleash since the effect of the spell is instantaneous (it just inflicts persistent damage which by default can last longer than 1 round)

Blistering Invective is a perfect point of discussion. It's an Occult Spell (so it's easily accessible to psychic), it's a "damage spell" (deal 2d6 persistent fire damage) and don't have duration. But as GM I won't accept as an eligible to receive the Unleash Psyche because it's damage is persistence (and add the status bonus to a persistence spell would end very broken) and at same time "gain a status bonus to its damage equal to double the spell's level" to a spell that don't do any damage immediately when casting (and there's even if some one try to just give this bonus damage when the spell is casted by RAW we don't have what damage type is).

Anyway I read some time in the past someone saying that persistent damage aren't really a "damage" from the spell but a condition that does damage. This may be used as base to deny the Unleash dmg bonus to it. (yet this "condition" doubles in a crit by default)

That may have even been me. I don't have a major problem with it either way as it is such a terrible spell I'd personally never choose it for general adventuring even with the most generous reading. Compare it to Burn It which treats spell damage and persistent damage separately.


YuriP wrote:
shroudb wrote:
YuriP wrote:

RAW: You can't for both.

RAI: You can for both. My understand is that the main idea of "spells that don't have a duration" is to prevent to give the damage bonus to persistence damage or any other spell that does some extra damage more than once. This isn't the case of these both spells.
Balance: Same as RAI. You won't break the game just because your Daze done some extra dmg via Unleash.
what's funny, is that spells like Blistering Invective, which actually deal damage over time, actually benefit from the Unleash since the effect of the spell is instantaneous (it just inflicts persistent damage which by default can last longer than 1 round)

Blistering Invective is a perfect point of discussion. It's an Occult Spell (so it's easily accessible to psychic), it's a "damage spell" (deal 2d6 persistent fire damage) and don't have duration. But as GM I won't accept as an eligible to receive the Unleash Psyche because it's damage is persistence (and add the status bonus to a persistence spell would end very broken) and at same time "gain a status bonus to its damage equal to double the spell's level" to a spell that don't do any damage immediately when casting (and there's even if some one try to just give this bonus damage when the spell is casted by RAW we don't have what damage type is).

Anyway I read some time in the past someone saying that persistent damage aren't really a "damage" from the spell but a condition that does damage. This may be used as base to deny the Unleash dmg bonus to it. (yet this "condition" doubles in a crit by default)

Blistering Invective doesn't deal damage, it applies a condition that deals damage, so Unleash Psyche wouldn't work on it.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
It then says that spells with effects after they have been cast (if they don't have a duration, anyway,) don't count as magical, meaning even your example of utilizing Dispel Magic to counteract the Stunned condition from Daze doesn't work, simply because being Stunned 1 isn't tied to the spell's duration (i.e. saying "Stunned 1 for 1 round"), rather from critically failing the saving throw. This means that the spell effect ceases to be magical, and therefore Dispel Magic would not apply.

You make a mistake on that. Daze doesn't say "Stunned 1 for whatever round". As such, the Stunned duration is tied to the spell duration. So you can dispel it with Dispel Magic.


That's why I also think that Daze duration is more a case o typo than a mechanic.

Anyway it's unlikely that someone use any resource to try to counteract a Daze.


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SuperBidi wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
It then says that spells with effects after they have been cast (if they don't have a duration, anyway,) don't count as magical, meaning even your example of utilizing Dispel Magic to counteract the Stunned condition from Daze doesn't work, simply because being Stunned 1 isn't tied to the spell's duration (i.e. saying "Stunned 1 for 1 round"), rather from critically failing the saving throw. This means that the spell effect ceases to be magical, and therefore Dispel Magic would not apply.
You make a mistake on that. Daze doesn't say "Stunned 1 for whatever round". As such, the Stunned duration is tied to the spell duration. So you can dispel it with Dispel Magic.

That sounds like cheesing, since being "Stunned 1 for 1 round" means I can delay, lose the condition, and then immediately act afterward without losing actions, thereby ignoring the apparent penalties of the condition.

The spell simply says "Stunned 1," there is no duration provided by the spell for this effect, so saying it can be dispelled because it's tied to the spell's duration is debunked.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
That sounds like cheesing, since being "Stunned 1 for 1 round" means I can delay, lose the condition, and then immediately act afterward without losing actions, thereby ignoring the apparent penalties of the condition.

No, you can't Delay when Stunned as you can't act while Stunned and Delay is a free action.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The spell simply says "Stunned 1," there is no duration provided by the spell for this effect, so saying it can be dispelled because it's tied to the spell's duration is debunked.

The spell simply says "Stunned 1", there is no duration provided so it is tied to the spell duration.

When Haste says you gain the Quickened condition without any duration provided you lose it when Haste ends? So please apply the same ruling to all spells.

Horizon Hunters

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A lot of spells have useless durations. Fear is another one of those, where the spell "varies" in duration, but the effect is Frightened which falls off on its own. I don't think spells that only apply conditions that can be removed on their own should have a duration applied to them.

If you're going to waste a spell slot on Dispelling Stunned 1, then sure go ahead and waste it.


SuperBidi wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
That sounds like cheesing, since being "Stunned 1 for 1 round" means I can delay, lose the condition, and then immediately act afterward without losing actions, thereby ignoring the apparent penalties of the condition.

No, you can't Delay when Stunned as you can't act while Stunned and Delay is a free action.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The spell simply says "Stunned 1," there is no duration provided by the spell for this effect, so saying it can be dispelled because it's tied to the spell's duration is debunked.

The spell simply says "Stunned 1", there is no duration provided so it is tied to the spell duration.

When Haste says you gain the Quickened condition without any duration provided you lose it when Haste ends? So please apply the same ruling to all spells.

Okay, my bad on that one then. Maybe if there was an effect that delayed the consequences long enough for it to not apply?

There are effects which apply the value of a condition over the course of multiple rounds, like the Slow spell. In those cases, the duration is specified in addition to a value. The factor that this exists means effects with only a value aren't also effects with a duration.

As for Haste, the Quickened condition doesn't have a value, so it has a duration, and instead of having it be an effect not tied to the spell by having its own duration. Incidentally, so does Slow.


Cordell Kintner wrote:
A lot of spells have useless durations. Fear is another one of those, where the spell "varies" in duration, but the effect is Frightened which falls off on its own. I don't think spells that only apply conditions that can be removed on their own should have a duration applied to them.

On the contrary, it's super important. That's how Remove Fear and Cleansing Flames work. They counteract an effect applying the Frightened condition, so they can counteract Fear because it has a duration. And by counteracting Fear they remove the Frightened condition because the condition duration is tied to the spell duration.

By houseruling that conditions with internal means of removal no more follow the rules about spell duration, you break a lot of things that need this rule to work.
I don't know why a lot of players can't conceive that Stunned, Frightened and other such conditions also have to follow the rules about spell duration. But they need to for the game to work properly.

Horizon Hunters

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You can still counteract a Fear effect if the spell has no duration. The condition itself counts as a Fear effect. Or are you saying that you can't use Remove Fear on someone who was Demoralized?


Cordell Kintner wrote:
You can still counteract a Fear effect if the spell has no duration. The condition itself counts as a Fear effect. Or are you saying that you can't use Remove Fear on someone who was Demoralized?

The Demoralize itself would be the effect you can attempt to counter with Remove Fear. Conditions are not effects, for whatever that's worth. I can't think of any time the frightened condition is inflicted w/o an effect causing it


Cordell Kintner wrote:
You can still counteract a Fear effect if the spell has no duration. The condition itself counts as a Fear effect. Or are you saying that you can't use Remove Fear on someone who was Demoralized?

Frightened is no Fear effect, so strictly RAW, you can't. And even if you could, you would have hard time finding a DC and a level to a condition so you'd be in complete houserule territory.

Baarogue wrote:
The Demoralize itself would be the effect you can attempt to counter with Remove Fear. Conditions are not effects, for whatever that's worth. I can't think of any time the frightened condition is inflicted w/o an effect causing it

Unfortunately, Demoralize doesn't have a duration. So counteracting it doesn't bear more results than trying to Dispel a Fireball to quench the fire it generated when it exploded.


What you're thinking of requiring a duration for counteracting is Dispel Magic, SB. Remove Fear can counteract any single fear effect, which Demoralize is


Cordell Kintner wrote:
You can still counteract a Fear effect if the spell has no duration. The condition itself counts as a Fear effect. Or are you saying that you can't use Remove Fear on someone who was Demoralized?

You can use Remove Fear on someone who has been Demoralized.

What you can't do is use Dispel Magic on someone who has been Demoralized. Because the Frightened condition isn't being caused by magic.

You can use Dispel Magic on someone under the effects of the Fear spell. And when the spell ends it would remove the Frightened condition that the spell is causing.

You actually couldn't use Dispel Magic on someone being affected by the Witch Hex Evil Eye because the spell has the Curse trait. You would have to use Remove Curse in order to end the spell and the Frightened condition.


SuperBidi wrote:
Cordell Kintner wrote:
You can still counteract a Fear effect if the spell has no duration. The condition itself counts as a Fear effect. Or are you saying that you can't use Remove Fear on someone who was Demoralized?
Frightened is no Fear effect, so strictly RAW, you can't. And even if you could, you would have hard time finding a DC and a level to a condition so you'd be in complete houserule territory.

I don't see any conditions having traits. Frightened isn't unique in that.

Demoralize is the fear effect that is causing Frightened and is what Remove Fear would be counteracting.

Don't argue strict RAW to the point where the game doesn't make any sense.


breithauptclan wrote:
Don't argue strict RAW to the point where the game doesn't make any sense.

I don't know what's the intent behind Remove Fear. If it was just supposed to remove the Frightened condition, then there are easier ways of writing it (there are tons of effects reducing or removing conditions that just ignore the effects that may have caused them). As it is written now, it is closer to a Dispel Magic than to a condition remover.

So I'm not sure it is supposed to interact with Demoralize anyway.

Edit: Also, Demoralize doesn't state a duration, but it's no spell, so I'm not sure it has to state a duration... It's a complicated call, but I don't think you're out of RAW if you consider that Demoralize has a duration, the duration of its effect, despite not stating any, as it's no spell it doesn't have to.


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SuperBidi wrote:
I don't know what's the intent behind Remove Fear.

That is why we have this first line of guidance text in most of these spell and ability rules.

Remove Fear wrote:
With a touch, you ease a creature's fears.

The intent is to make that sentence true.

It is not just supposed to remove the Frightened condition. It is a special purpose spell meant for a very narrow range - it counteracts things that cause a creature's fears. It is more powerful than Dispel Magic within that range because it can work on mundane fear as well as magical. It is about equal in power to other morale boosting effects like Aura of Courage and Snap Out Of It - though since it is a spell it works differently from those abilities.


breithauptclan wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
I don't know what's the intent behind Remove Fear.

That is why we have this first line of guidance text in most of these spell and ability rules.

Remove Fear wrote:
With a touch, you ease a creature's fears.

The intent is to make that sentence true.

It is not just supposed to remove the Frightened condition. It is a special purpose spell meant for a very narrow range - it counteracts things that cause a creature's fears. It is more powerful than Dispel Magic within that range because it can work on mundane fear as well as magical. It is about equal in power to other morale boosting effects like Aura of Courage and Snap Out Of It - though since it is a spell it works differently from those abilities.

I've edited my previous post about Demoralize.

Anyway, Remove Fear doesn't work on Phantasmal Killer Frightened Condition. So the spell is rather limited, even if you allow it on Demoralize. And if you want Remove Fear to work on any Frightened Condition, as you consider it is the intent, you'll need to pretty heavily houserule the game.
The RAI case you're trying to make doesn't need just a different interpretation of RAW but a strong houserule.


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Why would it not? The spell has the fear trait. It is a fear effect. Remove Fear works on Phantasmal Killer and all other fear effects that are not curses or which specifically say Remove Fear doesn't work, if there are any. It's right there in the spell's description

You are quick to cry "houserule! houserule!" but I don't see any support for your claim. If you have something even more specific than the specific effects of the Remove Fear spell, let's see it

Trying to claim that Remove Fear doesn't work on any effects except those that list a duration doesn't pass the "that's fing ridiculous" test. I looked. Hardly ANY do


SuperBidi wrote:

By houseruling that conditions with internal means of removal no more follow the rules about spell duration, you break a lot of things that need this rule to work.

I don't know why a lot of players can't conceive that Stunned, Frightened and other such conditions also have to follow the rules about spell duration. But they need to for the game to work properly.

Except I already quoted a rule that says exactly what you think I "houseruled". Effects with a duration that doesn't match the spell's duration persist and aren't magical in nature.

To be clear, I would believe that an effect that both has a condition with a duration and a spell with a duration can be dispelled. Slow being the example, if you are Slowed 1 for 1 minute by failing the save, the spell's duration also says 1 minute, so in this case, you can dispel Slow.

The problem is that Stunned 1 from Daze doesn't have a duration (i.e. doesn't say "Stunned 1 for 1 round"), and neither does the spell's damage, so saying the duration applies to something when neither of these things have a duration makes no sense.


Baarogue wrote:
Why would it not?

Because it's the whole point of ongoing effects. The basic example (given in the rules about ongoing effects) is Sound Burst. It gives you the Deafened condition. You can't remove it by trying to counteract a Sonic effect or whatever, the only way to remove it is to heal it. Ongoing effects can't be removed by targeting the spell or the effect that applied them because these effects are over.


SuperBidi wrote:
Baarogue wrote:
Why would it not?
Because it's the whole point of ongoing effects. The basic example (given in the rules about ongoing effects) is Sound Burst. It gives you the Deafened condition. You can't remove it by trying to counteract a Sonic effect or whatever, the only way to remove it is to heal it. Ongoing effects can't be removed by targeting the spell or the effect that applied them because these effects are over.

Someone hasn't read how Restore Senses works and it shows


I tend to agree with the majority here.
Saying that Remove Fear only removes the effect of Spell Fear because of the word Fear is an overly narrow interpretation.

There is a Fear trait anyway, which is included in everything we talk about that causes Fear including Demoralize and Phatasmal Killer.

Probably the idea is the same as Remove Curse and Remove Disease, which try to remove the effects of everything that has the Curse and Disease tags respectively. Also Remove Fear write about "fear effect" not fear spell it's not trying to counteract the spell itself but the generated effect.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Except I already quoted a rule that says exactly what you think I "houseruled". Effects with a duration that doesn't match the spell's duration persist and aren't magical in nature.

I agree that the sentence is a bit unclear. It is "Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical."

There's the word "entry" that shouldn't be here, ongoing effects are effects longer than the spell duration. Considering that any effect with a duration different from the spell is an ongoing effect would make weird things (like counteracting Fear will remove the Frightened condition but not the Fleeing condition, counteracting Color Spray will only remove one of the 3 effects, etc...).

And because Stunned has a duration that is smaller than Daze, it is no ongoing effect and as such gets removed when you counteract Daze.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I tend to agree with the majority here.

I'm speaking about the rules, but it looks like people have their own ruling they prefer. Which is not necessarily bad, sometimes the wrong rule is actually the correct one (like for attacking objects). The only issue is that the rules make quite some sense. There are a few issues like Remove Fear that can't remove the Frightened condition in some cases, but I think it comes from Remove Fear being badly written (it should just have removed the Frightened condition and nothing else).

But when you start houseruling on that, you have to houserule a lot of things here and there for the rules to keep their consistency. I prefer to base myself on RAW, even if it doesn't always make sense, instead of starting to come up with new rules every time someone tries to counteract a spell.


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SuperBidi wrote:
Cordell Kintner wrote:
A lot of spells have useless durations. Fear is another one of those, where the spell "varies" in duration, but the effect is Frightened which falls off on its own. I don't think spells that only apply conditions that can be removed on their own should have a duration applied to them.

On the contrary, it's super important. That's how Remove Fear and Cleansing Flames work. They counteract an effect applying the Frightened condition, so they can counteract Fear because it has a duration. And by counteracting Fear they remove the Frightened condition because the condition duration is tied to the spell duration.

By houseruling that conditions with internal means of removal no more follow the rules about spell duration, you break a lot of things that need this rule to work.
I don't know why a lot of players can't conceive that Stunned, Frightened and other such conditions also have to follow the rules about spell duration. But they need to for the game to work properly.

I think you are getting off the rails here.

Conditions are Effects
Remember Anything you do in the game has an effect

Remove Fear counteracts a fear effect on one target. That might be an ongoing effect from a spell with a duration, or just a one off effect from something without a duration like an intimdation check.

The fear effect can be just the Frightened condition.

The level of the Frightened condition is just the level of what caused it. Why? Because that is all we have to go on. But there is probably a rule on it somewhere.


Gortle wrote:
Conditions are Effects

No.

Gortle wrote:
Remember Anything you do in the game has an effect

Yes.

Effects are everything you do, not the consequences of what you do. If I draw my weapon, it's an effect. My drawn weapon is no effect.
If I cast Sound Burst on someone, it has an effect. The Deafened condition is no effect once it is imparted.
That's why Cleansing Flames states that you can counteract an "effect imparting the [...] condition".

And the rules about ongoing effects is quite clear: I can't remove the Deafened condition imparted by Sound Burst by counteracting a Sonic effect or whatever. It's a condition, you have to deal with it by healing it. It's the same about Frightened, it's no fear effect, it's a condition.

If Phantasmal Killer was giving the Deafened condition, I'm pretty sure you'd not be using Remove Fear to remove it. Still, you'd be in the exact same situation.

What happens is that people want Remove Fear to remove the Frightened condition. And they ignore the rules to make it happen. Unfortunately, Remove Fear is badly written and doesn't remove the Frightened condition (not directly).


(I can't edit, too late)

Also, rules are extremely clear that you're wrong: "Some spells have effects that remain even after the spell’s magic is gone. Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical. For instance, a spell that creates a loud sound and has no duration might deafen someone for a time, even permanently. This deafness couldn’t be counteracted because it is not itself magical (though it might be cured by other magic, such as restore senses)."

So the Frightened condition imparted by Phantasmal Killer can't be counteracted. Your interpretation of the rules is wrong. As a side note, it hints at counteracting being only possible for magical effects, which solves the Demoralize case.


SuperBidi wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Except I already quoted a rule that says exactly what you think I "houseruled". Effects with a duration that doesn't match the spell's duration persist and aren't magical in nature.

I agree that the sentence is a bit unclear. It is "Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical."

There's the word "entry" that shouldn't be here, ongoing effects are effects longer than the spell duration. Considering that any effect with a duration different from the spell is an ongoing effect would make weird things (like counteracting Fear will remove the Frightened condition but not the Fleeing condition, counteracting Color Spray will only remove one of the 3 effects, etc...).

And because Stunned has a duration that is smaller than Daze, it is no ongoing effect and as such gets removed when you counteract Daze.

Even removing the word 'entry' doesn't change much, because a lot of those effects are considered instantaneously applied by the magic. It's quite clear that it's referring to entries like Slowed from the Slow spell, and not entries like Stunned 1 from Daze. If the durations were meant to be intertwined, it would be "Stunned 1 for 1 round."

Stunned 1, by itself, doesn't have a duration, it can only be removed once you lose the relevant number of actions. If you are unable to act (such as by being unconscious), you are still Stunned 1 until such time as you can gain actions.

So, let's say I am a PC and am near death. I am affected by an enemy's Daze cantrip. I roll a 1, critically fail, and take enough damage to go Unconscious, and I am also Stunned 1.

Now, when it's my turn again, and I am not given any healing to regain consciousness, I don't regain actions. Therefore, my Stunned 1 condition doesn't go away either. And nothing in the Unconscious/Dying conditions say you lose any previous conditions that prevent you from acting. So, if I am brought back to consciousness from healing two rounds later, I still retain that Stunned 1 condition, which goes away once my turn commences and I lose an action.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Stunned 1, by itself, doesn't have a duration

Daze says otherwise: Daze has a duration and the only effect that has a duration is Stunned 1. As such, it's a strong hint at Stunned 1 having a duration of at most 1 round.

So your interpretation seems wrong. What do you have to back it up? Nothing as of now as you haven't quoted the book yet.


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get a load of SB claiming he's the one true follower of RAW and all of us are houserulers like he's never even met me

Let's take a look at the general rule he's clutching at his chest like a talisman against us heathens

Durations, CR 304 wrote:
Some spells have effects that remain even after the spell’s magic is gone. Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical. For instance, a spell that creates a loud sound and has no duration might deafen someone for a time, even permanently. This deafness couldn’t be counteracted because it is not itself magical (though it might be cured by other magic, such as restore senses).

SB is fixated specifically on that last sentence, "This deafness couldn’t be counteracted because it is not itself magical (though it might be cured by other magic, such as restore senses)"

So let's take a look at the cure that sentence mentions, the spell Restore Senses

Restore Senses, CR 364, emphasis mine wrote:
You attempt to counteract a single effect imposing the blinded or deafened conditions on the target, restoring its vision or hearing. This can counteract both temporary magic and permanent consequences of magic, but it doesn't cure someone who does not have the sense due to some natural state or effect, such as from birth or from a non-magical wound or toxin.

Right away we see that his stance is flawed, probably because he hasn't read the spell, just taken the quote he thought supported his stance and ran with it. So you CAN counteract an effect that's one and done already, because this spell says you can. Its specific rule overrides the general rule that you can't counteract effects that exceed a spell's duration

There are many feats and spells which work similar to Restore Senses, allowing a counteract check against an effect you would not normally be able to counteract if that general rule were the only source. Like, SO MANY you guys. Because PF2 is written in a way that the general rules are only the starting line, and loads of feats, skills, spells, magic items, and other effects are written to break the general rules. The general rules should not be enshrined in your heart as the one and only RAW like SB is doing here because then you're setting yourself up for either a huge paradigm shift when you realize you're so very wrong, or you stubbornly continue to entrench yourself in exceedingly implausible, unreasonable, and unsupported claims like Remove Fear doesn't actually remove the frightened condition from Fear

Because it does

Remove Fear, CR 363, emphasis mine wrote:
With a touch, you ease a creature's fears. You can attempt to counteract a single fear effect that the target suffers from. This frees only the target, not any other creatures under the fear effect.

Note the lack of any mention of this only working on "temporary magic and permanent consequences of magic," and not those imposed "naturally" or via non-magical wounds or toxin? It works on spells, skills, class features, feats, and toxins alike, as long as they are a fear effect. Just because an effect ceases being magical doesn't mean it ceases being a fear effect. And with the ironclad precedent of Restore Senses telling us we CAN counteract an effect which exceeds its spell's duration, we can conclude that Remove Fear can remove the frightened condition from the Fear spell, or Phantasmal Killer, etc.


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Baarogue wrote:
Let's take a look at the general rule he's clutching at his chest like a talisman against us heathens

I haven't met you more than you have met me. So please avoid this kind of sentences. We are discussing rules, and you are the first one to actually bring an interesting rule counterpoint to my argument.

Baarogue wrote:
Right away we see that his stance is flawed

No. We see there's a paradox in the rules. The rules state that it can't be counteracted but can be cured by an effect that counteracts. Quite an obvious paradox.

So I hadn't seen this paradox and now I see how we can have both interpretation. Because it makes both interpretations possible, as Restore Senses especially says that it can counteract permanent consequences of magic, so it can be seen as a case of "specific beats general".

As I also prefer the interpretation that Remove Fear can remove the Frightened condition even when we are dealing with an ongoing effect, I side with you. You convinced me.


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Dang, well now I feel bad for my snark. Sorry man


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SuperBidi wrote:

(I can't edit, too late)

Also, rules are extremely clear that you're wrong: "Some spells have effects that remain even after the spell’s magic is gone. Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical. For instance, a spell that creates a loud sound and has no duration might deafen someone for a time, even permanently. This deafness couldn’t be counteracted because it is not itself magical (though it might be cured by other magic, such as restore senses)."

So the Frightened condition imparted by Phantasmal Killer can't be counteracted. Your interpretation of the rules is wrong. As a side note, it hints at counteracting being only possible for magical effects, which solves the Demoralize case.

Remove Fear is not counteracting the spell it is counteracting the effect. Read it.

Remove Fear is not a counterspell. Counteracts are not restricted to spells.

Counteracting wrote:
Some effects try to counteract spells, afflictions, conditions, or other effects.


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SuperBidi wrote:
Gortle wrote:
Conditions are Effects

No.

Gortle wrote:
Remember Anything you do in the game has an effect

Yes.

Effects are everything you do, not the consequences of what you do. If I draw my weapon, it's an effect. My drawn weapon is no effect.

I disagree already

Effects are not everything you do, they are the result of everything you do. The effect of drawing your sword is that your sword is now drawn. That is the effect.

SuperBidi wrote:


If I cast Sound Burst on someone, it has an effect. The Deafened condition is no effect once it is imparted.

Still disagreeing

Sound bursts has effects. The deafend condition is one of those effects.

SuperBidi wrote:


That's why Cleansing Flames states that you can counteract an "effect imparting the [...] condition".

Nope that is just in case you have multiple effects causing similar conditions. You only get to counteract one of them.

SuperBidi wrote:

And the rules about ongoing effects is quite clear: I can't remove the Deafened condition imparted by Sound Burst by counteracting a Sonic effect or whatever. It's a condition, you have to deal with it by healing it. It's the same about Frightened, it's no fear effect, it's a condition.

Nope it still has its history and all its flavours it knows where it comes from and what is causing it.

SuperBidi wrote:


If Phantasmal Killer was giving the Deafened condition, I'm pretty sure you'd not be using Remove Fear to remove it. Still, you'd be in the exact same situation.

What happens is that people want Remove Fear to remove the Frightened condition. And they ignore the rules to make it happen. Unfortunately, Remove Fear is badly written and doesn't remove the Frightened condition (not directly).

Not the way I see it


For me it's just simple.

Remove Fear try to counteract the effects cause by things that have the Fear trait.
Remove Disease try to counteract ongoing disease caused by things that have the Disease trait.
Remove Curse try to counteract ongoing curse caused by things that have the Curse trait or to remove cursed things that also have such trait that are linked to target.
Remove Paralysis is the only remove spell that's works only with magical effect. Also paralyze don't have a specific trait just the condition and the remove spell explicit write about the condition.


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SuperBidi wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Stunned 1, by itself, doesn't have a duration

Daze says otherwise: Daze has a duration and the only effect that has a duration is Stunned 1. As such, it's a strong hint at Stunned 1 having a duration of at most 1 round.

So your interpretation seems wrong. What do you have to back it up? Nothing as of now as you haven't quoted the book yet.

Hints aren't RAW. And your interpretation makes multiple counteracting spells and effects impossible, so saying mine is wrong while yours is even worse than mine isn't really anything to be proud of

I already referenced Stunned 1 not having a duration via the condition, which outright differentiates values and conditions as being separate, distinct entities, while also referencing Slow as an example of effects which tie spell and effect durations together, and all you did was close your eyes, look away, and typed the same steaming pile of garbage you did before, all while not referencing any rules to support your own claim. As far as I'm concerned, I put in way too much effort for such an ignorant, dismissive, and boneheaded response, and all this tells me is that you are too set in your ways to have any means of reasonable debate.


Baarogue wrote:
Dang, well now I feel bad for my snark. Sorry man

No problem, I can be painful, too.

Gortle wrote:

Remove Fear is not counteracting the spell it is counteracting the effect. Read it.

Remove Fear is not a counterspell. Counteracts are not restricted to spells.

Baarogue convinced me.

In fact, the sentence saying that you can't counteract an ongoing effect because it's not magical seems just wrong (and I made the mistake of taking it at face value which affected my understanding of this whole part of the rules). What they certainly wanted to say is that you can't dispel an ongoing effect because it's not magical, which is definitely true.
In my opinion, it should be an errata candidate (alongside the sentence about the "duration entry" which is not really English).

Gortle wrote:
all this tells me is that you are too set in your ways to have any means of reasonable debate

I... don't think it's true. I'm just hard to convince.

When you say that Stunned 1 doesn't have a duration, you are not referencing anything either. If you have something that states that, then I'll be happy to change my mind.


I already did, and you either didn't read the post entirely, or dismissed it because [reasons].

I'll show you the relevant bits to save time:

Stunned wrote:
You've become senseless. You can't act while stunned. Stunned usually includes a value, which indicates how many total actions you lose, possibly over multiple turns, from being stunned. Each time you regain actions (such as at the start of your turn), reduce the number you regain by your stunned value, then reduce your stunned value by the number of actions you lost. For example, if you were stunned 4, you would lose all 3 of your actions on your turn, reducing you to stunned 1; on your next turn, you would lose 1 more action, and then be able to use your remaining 2 actions normally. Stunned might also have a duration instead of a value, such as “stunned for 1 minute.” In this case, you lose all your actions for the listed duration.

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