| Kyle_TheBuilder |
Just wanted to get some general opinions about this idea for build, as there are pros and cons to it. This is pure optimization idea.
I don't like demoralize and frightened condition due to fall off. If I were to even invest in Intimidation on Fighter it has be to be on Hobgoblin Fighter because of Remorseless Lash and backup feats: Intimidating Strike and Shatter Defense.
So I thought about making it all little bit bette by taking Free Archetype dedication into Rogue (at level 8 or 9 depending if Adopted Human for Multitalented is there) for Dread Striker on level 12 + on level 10 Minor Magic: Arcane to be able to use scrolls/wands and later Gang Up becasue why not if I am already here, it's great feat.
General thought is that if there are already so many ways to make enemies frightened: Demoralize, Fear spell, Dirge of Doom, Intimidating Strike then Remorsless Lash is good to keep it with just Strikes (which means you can also use stuff like Knockdown and AoO will also count for prolonging frightened). But -1 for ancestry investment and loosing better ancestry feats for Fighters is in my opinion not enough. But Dread Striker makes that every frightened 1 is auto flat-footed, which means -3 AC from Demoralize success, from Intimidating Strike, from Fear spell, from Dirge of Doom. Which obviously combo with Remorseless Lash to prolong that -3 AC on enemy and best is when I trip frightened enemy and he Stands my AoO will still be with -3 AC becasue flat-footed is not caused by prone but frightened, so increases my hit/crit chance and prone if using hammers/flails. On heightened Fear or Dirge of Doom can make whole room -3 AC to Fighter and one Intimidating Strike has potential of -3 to -4 AC as opening on start which makes Press/Second Strike just -2/-1 on Fighter. Rogues know that Dread Striker is awesome. Then we could pick later Gang Up and pretty much have enemies flat-footed almost all the time. However the question is: is this worth the hassle, because there are pros and cons to this build:
Pros:
1. Every Demoralize, Fear spell, Dirge of Doom, Intimidating Strike, Dread Marshal Stance crit, Fearsome rune etc. can just straight up make enemy -3 AC at minimum, no flank or anything needed.
2. "Easy" condition to keep due to Remorseless Lash from Hobo and accuracy from Fighter.
3. "Easy" condition to reaply due to Intimidating Strike if needed.
4. Minor Magic from Basic Trickery is very good feat to pick. Cast a Spell Activity, we can pick any tradition, which unlocks scrolls/wands for us without having to take spellcasting dedication
5. Dread Striker just works. No strings attached. Once enemy is frightened, it works
6. Dread Striker + Gang Up + Flanking + Prone pretty much guarantees flat-footed on enemies in pretty much 95% of scenarios.
Cons:
1. Hobgoblin is a must. Remorseless Lash is just imo mandatory for fear martials. Darkvision from start is also nice. You can justify Adopted Ancestry (Human) or (Dwarf) for very good feats, but not both, so you lose good combo of Human with Adopted Ancestry (Dwarf) or counterwise.
2. 14 DEX to pick Rogue Dedication hurts as we want to be STR Fighter. You can start with 12 DEX and 10 WIS and get 14 DEX at level 5, but that means delaying your WIS increases to level 10 and Fighter Will saves are not good.
3. Traits like "Emotion", "Mental", "Fear" make whole combo useless vs mindless enemies like Golems for example. Something to keep in mind when thinking about cost of opportunity here.
4. Dread Striker is level 12 to pick at earliest due to "two times level" rule for dedication advanced feats. Which means levels 1-11 it's pretty much just Remorsless Lash -1 debuff for keeping with suboptimal 14 DEX being there. So we will play till minimum of level 8 with diffrent FA dedication anyway. Makes you wonder about justification of Hobgobling pick. -1 from frightened 1 is good but makes me wonder if it's worth on higher levels where casting Fear spell is very cheap option. This is "late game" build sadly so even in 1-20 campaign you only see the "power" of it on levels 12-20.
| Kyle_TheBuilder |
Small correction since I can't edit. Dread Striker can be gotten as fast as level 8, not 12, but that would require starting with 14 DEX and taking Rogue dedication at 2 level instead of taking it at 8th/9th, which sadly would also put WIS on 10 and CHA on 12 instead of 14, so at this point Demoralize part would not be that good, probably relying more on Intimidation Strike into Press/Strike for keep up once Dread Strike is on... hm, I would still probably go Champion/Marshal first and then Rogue at 8/9th so I can start with 14 CHA, as starting with 14 DEX seems like too big cost in long run.
| Gortle |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You have identified the key problem. Which is you can't boost everything.
If you want to intimidate you need Charisma, if you want to melee you need Strength. But you also need Con, Dex, Wis as defences, and Dex in particular to qualify as a Rogue.
I see two ways this works.
Pay the cost and start with 18 Str, 12 Con, 12 Dex, 12 Wis, 10 Int and 14 Cha using the new rules for ancestry ability boosts. Stay in heavy armour and alternate your boost on your defensive scores. Probably you will need to skip Wis at level 5.
Just do it as a Rogue Thief. Then you don't need the Strength, and can probably start with 10 Str, 12 Con, 18 Dex, 12 Wis, 10 Int and 16 Cha. You are much squisher and are down +2 to hit, but you do hit harder.
BTW Mindless enemies is a much smaller set that it used to be. It is really only them and Oozes to be worried about and they overlap. This is not PF1 where huge swathes of the bestiary were just immune.
Red Griffyn
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So the benefit of being a fighter is you don't need CHA at all. You can get frightened with some level of reliability from Intimidating Strike, a fearsome rune, or typically another party member. The truth is that bon mot and demoralize are the most common third action for a face/CHA character and you're likely to have one or a caster with L3 fear spells. So you can likely get by with no CHA. Some other things to consider:
- It is basically 3 of 4 feats to get dread striker by L8 since you need the L2 dedication, L4 or L6 basic feat, and L8 advanced feat for dread striker. That means without free archetype you're basically giving up any of the fun L4/L6 fighter feat options since the other L4/L6 feat should be intimidating strike. The two alternatives are using the free archetype variant rule or starting Ancient Elf (grabbing rogue at L1) with adopted ancestry (hobgoblin) at L3 so you can grab remorseless lash by L5 *That opens up a L4 or L6 feat for you. Technically adopted can't be used with hobgoblin but most GMs would allow it and even PFS2e allows it if you spend some ACP (i.e., pick one of 3 or 4 uncommon ancestries to allow adopted to work with).
- the L4 fear gem will actually improve the effects of intimidating strike and is worth considering at higher levels once 20gp isn't too big a deal.
- The L3/L9 crushing rune is a really great alternative to the fearsome rune. It scales to a -2 penalty faster and it lasts until the end of your next turn. Strap it to a maul for nice 1D12 damage dice. Consider intimidating strike with a greater crushing rune will cause a -1 or -2 status penalty to AC, enable flatfooted from dread striker, drop them prone (which gives them flatfooted anyways) and give these same buffs to the entire party. A +1 to hit is roughly a 15% increase in DPR so while you lose a 1D6 on a weapon rune property slot, you'll easily make that back from all your party member's increased damage.
| Kyle_TheBuilder |
So the benefit of being a fighter is you don't need CHA at all. You can get frightened with some level of reliability from Intimidating Strike, a fearsome rune, or typically another party member. The truth is that bon mot and demoralize are the most common third action for a face/CHA character and you're likely to have one or a caster with L3 fear spells. So you can likely get by with no CHA. Some other things to consider:
- It is basically 3 of 4 feats to get dread striker by L8 since you need the L2 dedication, L4 or L6 basic feat, and L8 advanced feat for dread striker. That means without free archetype you're basically giving up any of the fun L4/L6 fighter feat options since the other L4/L6 feat should be intimidating strike. The two alternatives are using the free archetype variant rule or starting Ancient Elf (grabbing rogue at L1) with adopted ancestry (hobgoblin) at L3 so you can grab remorseless lash by L5 *That opens up a L4 or L6 feat for you. Technically adopted can't be used with hobgoblin but most GMs would allow it and even PFS2e allows it if you spend some ACP (i.e., pick one of 3 or 4 uncommon ancestries to allow adopted to work with).
- the L4 fear gem will actually improve the effects of intimidating strike and is worth considering at higher levels once 20gp isn't too big a deal.
- The L3/L9 crushing rune is a really great alternative to the fearsome rune. It scales to a -2 penalty faster and it lasts until the end of your next turn. Strap it to a maul for nice 1D12 damage dice. Consider intimidating strike with a greater crushing rune will cause a -1 or -2 status penalty to AC, enable flatfooted from dread striker, drop them prone (which gives them flatfooted anyways) and give these same buffs to the entire party. A +1 to hit is roughly a 15% increase in DPR so while you lose a 1D6 on a weapon rune property slot, you'll easily make that back from all your party member's increased damage.
I was thinking about dropping CHA, but with Dread Striker the Demoralize is suddenly a very effective 1 action debuff on opening (Battle Cry) granting -3 AC which can immidietly be followed by Remorseless Lash Knockdown/Strikes etc. So I agree that Fighter can go without Demoralize, I think on this build in particular it's much more valuable to have.
I know anything can be houseruled by I prefer my theorycraft builds to be RAW as houserules may or may not be, you never know. So no adopted ancestry (Hobgoblin).
| Kyle_TheBuilder |
You have identified the key problem. Which is you can't boost everything.
If you want to intimidate you need Charisma, if you want to melee you need Strength. But you also need Con, Dex, Wis as defences, and Dex in particular to qualify as a Rogue.I see two ways this works.
Pay the cost and start with 18 Str, 12 Con, 12 Dex, 12 Wis, 10 Int and 14 Cha using the new rules for ancestry ability boosts. Stay in heavy armour and alternate your boost on your defensive scores. Probably you will need to skip Wis at level 5.
Just do it as a Rogue Thief. Then you don't need the Strength, and can probably start with 10 Str, 12 Con, 18 Dex, 12 Wis, 10 Int and 16 Cha. You are much squisher and are down +2 to hit, but you do hit harder.
BTW Mindless enemies is a much smaller set that it used to be. It is really only them and Oozes to be worried about and they overlap. This is not PF1 where huge swathes of the bestiary were just immune.
Thanks for reply but this build is for Fighter in mind. I don't like or play Rogues, never been my playstyle in RPGS :)
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Red Griffyn
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Red Griffyn wrote:I was thinking about dropping CHA, but with...So the benefit of being a fighter is you don't need CHA at all. You can get frightened with some level of reliability from Intimidating Strike, a fearsome rune, or typically another party member. The truth is that bon mot and demoralize are the most common third action for a face/CHA character and you're likely to have one or a caster with L3 fear spells. So you can likely get by with no CHA. Some other things to consider:
- It is basically 3 of 4 feats to get dread striker by L8 since you need the L2 dedication, L4 or L6 basic feat, and L8 advanced feat for dread striker. That means without free archetype you're basically giving up any of the fun L4/L6 fighter feat options since the other L4/L6 feat should be intimidating strike. The two alternatives are using the free archetype variant rule or starting Ancient Elf (grabbing rogue at L1) with adopted ancestry (hobgoblin) at L3 so you can grab remorseless lash by L5 *That opens up a L4 or L6 feat for you. Technically adopted can't be used with hobgoblin but most GMs would allow it and even PFS2e allows it if you spend some ACP (i.e., pick one of 3 or 4 uncommon ancestries to allow adopted to work with).
- the L4 fear gem will actually improve the effects of intimidating strike and is worth considering at higher levels once 20gp isn't too big a deal.
- The L3/L9 crushing rune is a really great alternative to the fearsome rune. It scales to a -2 penalty faster and it lasts until the end of your next turn. Strap it to a maul for nice 1D12 damage dice. Consider intimidating strike with a greater crushing rune will cause a -1 or -2 status penalty to AC, enable flatfooted from dread striker, drop them prone (which gives them flatfooted anyways) and give these same buffs to the entire party. A +1 to hit is roughly a 15% increase in DPR so while you lose a 1D6 on a weapon rune property slot, you'll easily make that back from all your party member's increased damage.
Sure, that is fair. My usual litmus test for RAW variance is whether they did it in PFS. That is as good as its going to get for officially approved RAW balanced options.
If you want to build into CHA, not use Free Archetype, and Still have rogue you're going to have a hard time. IMO if you're a melee character getting flatfooted isn't all that hard and where dread striker really shines is in CHA heavy classes that want to use ranged options (e.g., a boomerang throwing thaumaturge) or in party of 4 compositions where there is only one front liner.
One thing you might consider, though you won't likely do as much damage is to lean into being DEX heavy and just use a finesse weapon. You'll be capped at 1D8, but you could just use the L4/L6 spare feat there to pick up sneak attacker and add 1d6 precision damage to your strikes when you get them flatfooted. The benefits here are you get a better reflex save, can switch hit (blazons of shared power can likely get you a ranged option without buying a second set of runes) and you temporarily go down to medium armor, but can scale your STR to 16+ and sit in heavy armour eventually. That could lead you down a double strike kind of path or L10 agile grace kind of path.
Otherwise I'm going to say that the juice isn't worth the squeeze or simply just have to suffer with a bad wis or con save. After you're done with rogue if you can justify a dip into monk or thaumaturge you can pick up the L12 boost will save to master feat to patch your bad save progression. Personally if I was going all in on STR/CHA as a hobby I would go into Marshal and pick-up the intimation stance that nets you a free fearsome rune. It becomes eventually trivial with +2 circumstance bonus from intimidating prowess, 18 CHA, and +X item bonuses to get the stance to succeed. It is typically the least successful right around L5-L6, but after you hit master at L7 it steadily goes down to near auto succeed territories in your early L10s. This is not true for monster Will DCs which tend to improve as levels progress making it somewhat harder to succeed.
Either way I think you should consider having intimidating strike as the main feature not the back-up feature because the biggest downside to demoralize is that the enemy becomes immune so one bad attempt sort of nullifies your main 'stick' and its better to have a bon mot set-up to demoralize to improve your chances of landing it.
| Kyle_TheBuilder |
Kyle_TheBuilder wrote:...Red Griffyn wrote:I wasSo the benefit of being a fighter is you don't need CHA at all. You can get frightened with some level of reliability from Intimidating Strike, a fearsome rune, or typically another party member. The truth is that bon mot and demoralize are the most common third action for a face/CHA character and you're likely to have one or a caster with L3 fear spells. So you can likely get by with no CHA. Some other things to consider:
- It is basically 3 of 4 feats to get dread striker by L8 since you need the L2 dedication, L4 or L6 basic feat, and L8 advanced feat for dread striker. That means without free archetype you're basically giving up any of the fun L4/L6 fighter feat options since the other L4/L6 feat should be intimidating strike. The two alternatives are using the free archetype variant rule or starting Ancient Elf (grabbing rogue at L1) with adopted ancestry (hobgoblin) at L3 so you can grab remorseless lash by L5 *That opens up a L4 or L6 feat for you. Technically adopted can't be used with hobgoblin but most GMs would allow it and even PFS2e allows it if you spend some ACP (i.e., pick one of 3 or 4 uncommon ancestries to allow adopted to work with).
- the L4 fear gem will actually improve the effects of intimidating strike and is worth considering at higher levels once 20gp isn't too big a deal.
- The L3/L9 crushing rune is a really great alternative to the fearsome rune. It scales to a -2 penalty faster and it lasts until the end of your next turn. Strap it to a maul for nice 1D12 damage dice. Consider intimidating strike with a greater crushing rune will cause a -1 or -2 status penalty to AC, enable flatfooted from dread striker, drop them prone (which gives them flatfooted anyways) and give these same buffs to the entire party. A +1 to hit is roughly a 15% increase in DPR so while you lose a 1D6 on a weapon rune property slot, you'll easily make that back from all your party member's increased damage.
This build idea is under Free Archetype rule. Otherwise It wouldn't make sense at all to try to squeeze that.
| YuriP |
For FA builds (or even Ancient Elf/Multitalented builds) in order to prevent the MADness probably you best option is to do Rogue + Bard archetype. You don't even need the hobgobling. Just take Dread Striker from Rogue and Dirge of Doom from Bard and you will keep all your opponents Frightened and Flat-Footed to you.
OK it's a mid-level build yet it's simple, pretty efficient and don't require high investment in Cha (if you play as half-elf with Multitalented you not even need to put any point in Cha).
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Red Griffyn
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This build idea is under Free Archetype rule. Otherwise It wouldn't make sense at all to try to squeeze that.
Alright. If we have FA the we can cook with oil. The below build gets you everything you want exactly at the earliest moment it is available. You can start with a 12 DEX and boost it to 14 at L5 so you only start rogue at L6 and still get your L8 feat. I've snuck in Thaumaturge and Bard to boost will saves and get inspire courage/dirge of doom. To accelerate you to the earliest receipt of everything possible you won't be taking many fighter feats and to be fair they're all pretty miss-able from L4-L8 since we're getting big damage boost from dread marshal stance and a free fearsome rune, flatfooted from dread striker, surefire way to get frightened via dirge of doom, etc.
Ancestry: Hobgoblin
Heritage: Whatever but I'd recommend Duskwalker
Class: Fighter
Class Feats:
1 - Exacting Strike or Sudden Charge (take ES if you plan to stand and strike 3 times a lot)
2 - Intimidating Strike (Amazing feat, should be your go to)
4 - Marshal - Snap Out of it (great support feat, needed to exit archetype)
6 - Rogue - Dedication (for your dread striker)
8 - Thaumaturge - Dedication (for L12 patch to bad will save progression)
9 - Blind Fight (change to twin riposte at L15)
10 - Combat Reflexes or Fearsome Brute (Pick one - suggest combat reflexes)
12 - Bard - Dirge of Doom (surefire way to drop frightened 1)
14 - Combat Reflexes or Fearsome Brute (Pick the other one)
15 - Improved Twin Riposte (Exchange L9 flexibility feat to Twin Riposte, the improved riposte feats don't need to you meet the pre-reqs to use the reaction so this is just another reaction that you can trigger if the enemy crit fails a strike against you for a 0 MAP attack)
16 - ? (whatever you want)
18 - Savage Critical (Criting is best)
20 - Boundless Reprisals (more 0MAP attack opportunities to deal damage and crit)
FA Feats:
2 - Marshal - Dedication - Boost Intimidation Skill to Expert
4 - Marshal - Dread Marshal Stance (free fearsome rune and damage)
6 - Rogue - Basic Trickery (Mobility) -> You need to take something and this IMO is the best option, lets you stride around at half speed free of reaction effects.
8 - Rogue - Advanced Trickery (Dread Striker)
10 - Bard - Inspire Courage (for when they are already frightened)
12 - Thaumaturge - Resolute (to patch your will saves that never go to master)
14 - Rogue - Gang Up
15 - ? (Suggest skill progression feats from thaumaturge/rogue or bard spell feats)
16 - ? (Suggest skill progression feats from thaumaturge/rogue or bard spell feats or Rogue - Opportune Backstab for another reaction trigger)
18 - ? (Suggest skill progression feats from thaumaturge/rogue or bard spell feats)
20 - ? (Suggest skill progression feats from thaumaturge/rogue or bard spell feats)
Ancestry Feats:
1 - Hobgoblin - Agonizing Rebuke (keep them frightened)
5 - Duskwalker - Life Sense (like a shittly blind sense)
9 - Human - Multitalented (Bard - Dedication) (for dirge of doom)
11 - Duskwalker - Ghost Hunter (From Ancesteral Paragon General Feat) (free ghost strike)
13 - Duskwalker - Spirit Strikes (+1 damage)
17 - ?
General Feats:
3 - Toughness
7 - Adopted (Human) (for multitalented)
11 - Ancestral Paragon (Duskwalker - Ghost Hunter)
15 - Fleet or Incredible Investiture (5ft movement or more invested items as it typically becomes and issue at higher levels)
19 - Fleet or Incredible Investiture (5ft movement or more invested items as it typically becomes and issue at higher levels)
| Kyle_TheBuilder |
For FA builds (or even Ancient Elf/Multitalented builds) in order to prevent the MADness probably you best option is to do Rogue + Bard archetype. You don't even need the hobgobling. Just take Dread Striker from Rogue and Dirge of Doom from Bard and you will keep all your opponents Frightened and Flat-Footed to you.
OK it's a mid-level build yet it's simple, pretty efficient and don't require high investment in Cha (if you play as half-elf with Multitalented you not even need to put any point in Cha).
We will already have Bard.
But I managed to to recalculate this build in my head and I can squeeze everything by level 8. I totally forgot I can still use my class feats to take archetype feats even with Free Archetype, lol and Trip Fighter has some "dead levels" where feats for my particular build are not very good like level 6th and 8th, which allows me to squeeze everything. So I can actually squeeze Rogue Dread Striker at level 8 + Champion and start with 12 Dex. My WIS will suffer a little but I can mange to get something to compensate that on levels 8+ with right dedications.
| Kyle_TheBuilder |
Kyle_TheBuilder wrote:This build idea is under Free Archetype rule. Otherwise It wouldn't make sense at all to try to squeeze that.Alright. If we have FA the we can cook with oil. The below build gets you everything you want exactly at the earliest moment it is available. You can start with a 12 DEX and boost it to 14 at L5 so you only start rogue at L6 and still get your L8 feat. I've snuck in Thaumaturge and Bard to boost will saves and get inspire courage/dirge of doom. To accelerate you to the earliest receipt of everything possible you won't be taking many fighter feats and to be fair they're all pretty miss-able from L4-L8 since we're getting big damage boost from dread marshal stance and a free fearsome rune, flatfooted from dread striker, surefire way to get frightened via dirge of doom, etc.
Ancestry: Hobgoblin
Heritage: Whatever but I'd recommend Duskwalker
Class: Fighter
Class Feats:
1 - Exacting Strike or Sudden Charge (take ES if you plan to stand and strike 3 times a lot)
2 - Intimidating Strike (Amazing feat, should be your go to)
4 - Marshal - Snap Out of it (great support feat, needed to exit archetype)
6 - Rogue - Dedication (for your dread striker)
8 - Thaumaturge - Dedication (for L12 patch to bad will save progression)
9 - Blind Fight (change to twin riposte at L15)
10 - Combat Reflexes or Fearsome Brute (Pick one - suggest combat reflexes)
12 - Bard - Dirge of Doom (surefire way to drop frightened 1)
14 - Combat Reflexes or Fearsome Brute (Pick the other one)
15 - Improved Twin Riposte (Exchange L9 flexibility feat to Twin Riposte, the improved riposte feats don't need to you meet the pre-reqs to use the reaction so this is just another reaction that you can trigger if the enemy crit fails a strike against you for a 0 MAP attack)
16 - ? (whatever you want)
18 - Savage Critical (Criting is best)
20 - Boundless Reprisals (more 0MAP attack opportunities to deal damage and crit)FA Feats:
2 - Marshal -...
I want to focus on trip and knockdown on top so I can maximize enemy action economy loss and AoOs (Knockdow -> Stand -> AoO -> if crit -> prone from hammer/flail etc.).
Also I think I would rather take Champion instead of Marshal for Paladin reaction so I can proc reaction attack even if enemy attacks my allies. But Marshal is also great option so I am not totally scrapping that. Using reach weapon, probably Long Hammer for Trip + P/B versatile damage or Met Hammer. Can switch also to Maul.
So I was thinking more like
Hobgoblin + Adopted Ancestry (Human), Remorseless Lash on lvl 1
Class:
1: Sudden Charge (I will rarely attack more to justify Ex. Strike here)
2: Intimidating Strike
4: Knockdown
6: Rogue Dedication
8: Basic Trickery (Minor Magic: Arcana) to have access to scrolls/wands etc. (Enlarge etc.)
9: Multitalented (Thaumaturge Dedication)
10: Improved Knockdown
12: Combat Reflex
14: Distrupting Stance or Lunge Stance (Lunge from Combat Flexibility)
16: As 14 but other one.
FA:
2: Champion Dedication
4: Lay on hands (retrain for Ranged Reprisal on level 6)
6: Champion Reaction
8: Advanced Trickery (Dread Striker)
10: ? Thaumaturge/Champion/Rogue feat
12: Resolute (Master in Will Saves)
Point being of trying to keep enemy flat-footed and frightened and keep trying to Knock it down (later auto on strike from Imp. Knockdown), make it stand -> AoO (still flatfooted cause frightened), fish for crit -> prone again etc.
As for Champion vs Marshal: both options are talking to me, so I consider both, as both have really good "passive" effect to proc.
Once I am Hasted by party I can Stride, Knockdown/Imp. Knockdown, Stride/Step (depending on enemy reach) back to keep wasting more enemy action, especially if I am Enlarged. Or Imp. Knockdown -> Strike as I don't do trip anymore for MAP, so -5 only here.
Of course opening with Battle Cry to try to demoralize without wasting action. Demoralize different target or Int. Strike on target that my Battle Cry/Demo failed. With Dread Strike that is on success auto -3/-4 AC, which is cool opening.
| Gortle |
This is overinvestment in the one theme. If you have the Charisma and Marshal, then why are you bothering with Bard. You'll never have the actions to put it all together. Do the Bard or the Marshal. Then get other features to round out the build.
| Kyle_TheBuilder |
Red Griffyn wrote:This is overinvestment in the one theme. If you have the Charisma and Marshal, then why are you bothering with Bard. You'll never have the actions to put it all together. Do the Bard or the Marshal. Then get other features to round out the build.
Sorry, but to whom you wrote that? I didn't plan to take Bard Archetype at all. I wrote that party will have Bard as other player will play one, so no need for me to take one or bother with it in any way. Marshal (Dread) was one of options I considered, but I prefer Champion + Rogue as shown above in how I see it.
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Red Griffyn
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Red Griffyn wrote:This is overinvestment in the one theme. If you have the Charisma and Marshal, then why are you bothering with Bard. You'll never have the actions to put it all together. Do the Bard or the Marshal. Then get other features to round out the build.
The parameters set were make me a super demoralize build. I'd say that build is exactly that. You spend an action to enter your martial stance for an effective fearsome rune +1-4 status damage and you have 3 options for inflicting the frightened condition:
- You demoralize (worst option)- You Intimidating Strike (2nd Best Option)
- You Dirge of Doom (Best option, but online at L12 since its guaranteed)
- You crit on any of your strikes while in Marshal dread stance.
- You hit a frightened creature with agonizing rebuke
If it can be frightened you are likely going to frighten it. All it takes is 1 action for a stance an 1 action in a round to it off with dirge of doom. You're trying to drop as many debuffs as possible off crit riders so frightened 1 by dirge can lead to more debuffs like going prone from flails/hammers, being blinded with a Phantasmal Doorknob (Greater) spell heart, clumsy 2 and enfeebled 2 from a greater crushing rune, etc. Once you get it going with one dirge of doom, you can probably keep it going quite easily.
It may appear action constrained but you have 3 reactions and can trigger a reaction 0MAP attacks via:
- AOO Conditions
- Enemy Crit Fails an Attack (with prone/crushing rune/frightened/potentially blinded its likely to happen more than you think)
- Ally hits a creature in melee that you're in melee range of.
Having 3-4 options for triggering your main thing just gives you a higher likeilihood to do it and various ways to do it. I mean if someone casts a L3 fear you literally have to do nothing else but wreck stuff.
The other benefit for bard is that you can inspire (if they're already frightened) for another +1 to hit or dirge of doom frightens all enemies so if you do get a AOO on your non-focused target, it will still be flatfooted due to dread striker.
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Red Griffyn
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I want to focus on trip and knockdown on top so I can maximize enemy action economy loss and AoOs (Knockdow -> Stand -> AoO -> if crit -> prone from hammer/flail etc.).
Also I think I would rather take Champion instead of Marshal for Paladin reaction so I can proc reaction attack even if enemy attacks my allies. But Marshal is also great option so I am not totally scrapping that. Using reach weapon, probably Long Hammer for Trip + P/B versatile damage or Met Hammer. Can switch also to Maul.
So I was thinking more like
Hobgoblin + Adopted Ancestry (Human), Remorseless Lash on lvl 1
Class:
1: Sudden Charge (I will rarely attack more to justify Ex. Strike here)
2: Intimidating Strike
4: Knockdown
6: Rogue Dedication
8: Basic Trickery (Minor Magic: Arcana) to have access to scrolls/wands etc. (Enlarge etc.)
9: Multitalented (Thaumaturge Dedication)
10: Improved Knockdown
12: Combat Reflex
14: Distrupting Stance or Lunge Stance (Lunge from Combat Flexibility)
16: As 14 but other one.FA:
2: Champion Dedication
4: Lay on hands (retrain for Ranged Reprisal on level 6)
6: Champion Reaction
8: Advanced Trickery (Dread Striker)
10: ? Thaumaturge/Champion/Rogue feat
12: Resolute (Master in Will Saves)Point being of trying to keep enemy flat-footed and frightened and keep trying to Knock it down (later auto on strike from Imp. Knockdown), make it stand -> AoO (still flatfooted cause frightened), fish for crit -> prone again etc.
As for Champion vs Marshal: both options are talking to me, so I consider both, as both have really good "passive" effect to proc.
Once I am Hasted by party I can Stride, Knockdown/Imp. Knockdown, Stride/Step (depending on enemy reach) back to keep wasting more enemy action, especially if I am Enlarged. Or Imp. Knockdown -> Strike as I don't do trip anymore for MAP, so -5 only here.
Of course opening with Battle Cry to try to demoralize without wasting action. Demoralize different target or Int. Strike on target that my Battle Cry/Demo failed. With Dread Strike that is on success auto -3/-4 AC, which is cool opening.
So, I could be wrong, but I don't think a AOO on a tripped opponent standing (if a crit) would drop them prone again.
But some comments:
- I think you're attempting to diversify too much. If you're going to try and being using knockdown and not going bard, or marshal then why bother leaning into CHA at all. Just leave it at a starting 12, boost it to 18 by L15, take assurance Intimidation so you can demoralize CR-1 or CR-2 type creatures with some reliability and otherwise for CR equivalent or CR+1/+2 monsters use intimidating strike. You'll want athletics maxed out for knockdown which will put intimidation behind the curve for all the uses you want from it anyways.
- So Champion is sort of okay. You can get a blade ally for a free disrupting rune, lay on hands is okay (its better on a 2 or 3 FP refocus class), and champion reaction can be decent. But there are many ways to get decent reactions. It forces a 14 starting CHA on a relatively MAD build but doesn't really return the benefits from CHA like Marshal does. If you do go Champion, you should consider trying to grab the travel domain advanced focus spell which gives you a fly speed at L9 or L11.
- Another thing to consider is if you are fine with a 1D8 flail/hammer weapon then maybe consider the monk weapon Sansetsukon. That lets you grab L10 flurry of blows (after monastic weaponry) and L12 Perfection's Path for the same will save boosting feat. It won't have reach, but the action economy booster might be worth it.
- Remember that at L9 and L15 you get a free fighter feat from the fighter class features so you can use that to pick up the twin riposte/improved twin riposte or knockdown feats or w/e.
- If we're looking for blood to squeeze from the stone, the cleric archetype for emblazon armament (only a +1 status bonus damage) and emblazon energy (1d4 or 1d6 extra damage) can be good.
Anyways. Lots of ideas have been written down. It is your character and you get to decide what type of fun/options/kit you want! Hope you have fun.
| YuriP |
We will already have Bard.
Excellent yet you cannot completely trust this build in an allied Bard, specially because maybe not interesting to it to use Dirge of Doom for you all time. Composition Spells are restricted to 1 per round for same char and many time maybe more interesting to it or to the rest of the party to play another song like Inspire Courage/Defense instead.
Having your own Dirge of Doom make your build independent from your bard being 30ft to the opponent you are attacking and also free the Bard to cast another composition Spell.
| Kyle_TheBuilder |
Kyle_TheBuilder wrote:We will already have Bard.Excellent yet you cannot completely trust this build in an allied Bard, specially because maybe not interesting to it to use Dirge of Doom for you all time. Composition Spells are restricted to 1 per round for same char and many time maybe more interesting to it or to the rest of the party to play another song like Inspire Courage/Defense instead.
Having your own Dirge of Doom make your build independent from your bard being 30ft to the opponent you are attacking and also free the Bard to cast another composition Spell.
While I understand you point I think between Demoralize, Intimidating Strike, Fear spells from party casters, Dirge of Doom from party Bard I really have plenty ways to impose frightened and Remorseless Lash + Fighter accuracy is then there to try to prolong it. Now, I could take Marshal instead of Champion to have additional frightened on critical strike + minor damage bonus but that would already be plenty of ways of imposing frightened. I really don't see the need for Dirge Of Doom, especially since I would get Dirge of Doom at levels where Fear spell is so cheap to cast from party casters and where Demoralize has really good chance to land.
Besides I don't like to double on other party member main "schticks" so I prefer party Bard to feel more impactful with his Dirge.
| Kyle_TheBuilder |
So, I could be wrong, but I don't think a AOO on a tripped opponent standing (if a crit) would drop them prone again.
But some comments:
- I think you're attempting to diversify too much. If you're going to try and being using knockdown and not going bard, or marshal then why bother leaning into CHA at all. Just leave it at a starting 12, boost it to 18 by L15, take assurance Intimidation so you can demoralize CR-1 or CR-2 type creatures with some reliability and otherwise for CR equivalent or CR+1/+2 monsters use intimidating strike. You'll want athletics maxed out for knockdown which will put intimidation behind the curve for all the uses you want from it anyways.
- So Champion is sort of okay. You can get a blade ally for a free disrupting rune, lay on hands is okay (its better on a 2 or 3 FP refocus class), and champion reaction can be decent. But there are many ways to get decent reactions. It forces a 14 starting CHA on a relatively MAD build but doesn't really return the benefits from CHA like Marshal does. If you do go Champion, you should consider trying to grab the travel domain advanced focus spell which gives you a fly speed at L9 or L11.
- Another thing to consider is if you are fine with a 1D8 flail/hammer weapon then maybe consider the monk weapon Sansetsukon. That lets you grab L10 flurry of blows (after monastic weaponry) and L12 Perfection's Path for the same will save boosting feat. It won't have reach, but the action economy booster might be worth it.
- Remember that at L9 and L15 you get a free fighter feat from the fighter class features so you can use that to pick up the twin riposte/improved twin riposte or knockdown feats or w/e.
- If we're looking for blood to squeeze from the stone, the cleric archetype for emblazon armament (only a +1 status bonus damage) and emblazon energy (1d4 or 1d6 extra damage) can be good.
Anyways. Lots of ideas have been written down. It is your character and you get to decide what type of fun/options/kit you want! Hope you have fun.
I will try to address it in order:
1. If you crit on AoO with hammer or flail then yes they go prone on AoO. It's crit specialization of those two weapon gruops.
2. Fair points about CHA and Intimidating Strike, but on the other hand apart from Athletics there is no other skill that I can see myself rising, as other stuff is already covered in party. Might as well rise Intimidation as secondary skill after Athletics. Also CHA is ability that I would rise anyway, as after level 5 where I need to increase DEX once, then it's only CHA and WIS anyway (STR/CON obviously) as I don't need more DEX, I don't need INT.
3. "Many way of get decent reaction" sorry, but apart from AoO and Champion reaction I don't think there is another good attack reaction that lets me fully Strike. Champion reaction is good casue with reach weapon and ranged reprisal it has 15ft range, which can cover a lot of party members and if enemies will ignore me I can still score reaction. Plus I can still increase my reach with Enlarge spells. Marshal as I said it's ok, I am thinking about that instead of Champion, though it's bonus damage it's little dissapointing but he has couple other good feats
4. Sansetsukon has no reach so I don't really think it's worth. If I didn't care about reach I would just use D12 Maul. This build is more aimed towards being control + debuff (trip + frightened) so I don't realyl think Flurry will give me anything. Most of the time I will use two action for Knockdown/Improved Knockdown anyway. But I will keep it in mind, I can always retrain stuff to fit something else. It's option I didn't think about so I will think about it.
5. twin riposte is kind of useless here. To even make it work I have to first "Requirements: You are benefiting from Twin Parry." and this is not build for dual wielding.
Thanks for your replies! I appreciate all feedback.
|
Red Griffyn
|
1. If you crit on AoO with hammer or flail then yes they go prone on AoO. It's crit specialization of those two weapon gruops.
2. Fair points about CHA and Intimidating Strike, but on the other hand apart from Athletics there is no other skill that I can see myself rising, as other stuff is already covered in party. Might as well rise Intimidation as secondary skill after Athletics. Also CHA is ability that I would rise anyway, as after level 5 where I need to increase DEX once, then it's only CHA and WIS anyway (STR/CON obviously) as I don't need more DEX, I don't need INT.
3. "Many way of get decent reaction" sorry, but apart from AoO and Champion reaction I don't think there is another good attack reaction that lets me fully Strike. Champion reaction is good casue with reach weapon and ranged reprisal it has 15ft range, which can cover a lot of party members and if enemies will ignore me I can still score reaction. Plus I can still increase my reach with Enlarge spells. Marshal as I said it's ok, I am thinking about that instead of Champion, though it's bonus damage it's little dissapointing but he has couple other good feats
4. Sansetsukon has no reach so I don't really think it's worth. If I didn't care about reach I would just use D12 Maul. This build is more aimed towards being control + debuff (trip + frightened) so I don't realyl think Flurry will give me anything. Most of the time I will use two action for Knockdown/Improved Knockdown anyway. But I will keep it in mind, I can always retrain stuff to fit something else. It's option I didn't think about so I will think about it.
5. twin riposte is kind of useless here. To even make it work I have to first "Requirements: You are benefiting from Twin Parry." and this is not build for dual wielding.
1.) This is what I was referring to. Vaugely remember people claiming the crit of the AOO wouldn't re-trip, but appears they get to stand up (so no flatfooted from prone) but with the option to retrip if you crit with a hammer/flail. It wasn't anything to do with the crit spec, just when the effect applies (i.e., can't trip someone who is already tripped and AOO doesn't interrupt movement reactions).
3/5.) Opportune Backstab is a rogue reaction available at L16 (you get to attack if one of your allies sucesfully hits an enemy your in melee range of with a melee attack), Improved riposte/twin riposte are ways to get more reactions and more triggers. You get no benefit from the base feat, but the 'IMPROVED' version removes the need to be benefiting form parry or twin parry and so you just always have 1 extra reaction and 1 additional trigger. Now you can only get the improved versions at L12 and L14 respectively and both of the improved riposte feats require the enemy to critically miss you. Thats why I suggested picking up one of those two feat chains off the L9 and L15 flexible fighter feats. There is no opportunity cost and as soon as you hit L15 you just have a new reaction trigger and an additional reaction.