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One problem I am finding with interpreting Cheliax in Pathfinder 2nd Edition is the way that summoning was broken up.
One of the core conflicts in Cheliax is that the Wizards (who summoned Devils and other fiendish creatures) did not give due respect and deference to the Asmodeus and his faith.
With the way that the summoning lists have been broken up - with no "in lore" explanation - this is now a non-issue.
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Oh, this is interesting. I had not heard before now anything about diabolists in Cheliax not being properly deferential to Asmodeus. It hasn't really been on my radar re: Imperial Cheliax, though I have certainly not deep deeply embroiled in that nation's lore.
Even so, I feel like considering that the spells which clerics use to conjure devils last a minute, no serious blow has been dealt to a wizard's ability to summon a devil with sufficient knowledge of ritual magic. Planar Binding remains an option for wizards who have no interest in paying homage to a deity in order to summon fiends.
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Theres a villain in Age of Ashes who is a wizard that is specifically noted to have the ability to summon devils using arcane spellcasting.
The ability is called “Fiend Summoner”
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Oh, this is interesting. I had not heard before now anything about diabolists in Cheliax not being properly deferential to Asmodeus. It hasn't really been on my radar re: Imperial Cheliax, though I have certainly not deep deeply embroiled in that nation's lore.
It's mostly a feature of Council of Thieves. (It does pop-up in Hell's Rebels though it is not as central.)
Theres a villain in Age of Ashes who is a wizard that is specifically noted to have the ability to summon devils using arcane spellcasting.
The ability is called “Fiend Summoner”
Yes, but how does a player character get that ability?
Even so, I feel like considering that the spells which clerics use to conjure devils last a minute, no serious blow has been dealt to a wizard's ability to summon a devil with sufficient knowledge of ritual magic. Planar Binding remains an option for wizards who have no interest in paying homage to a deity in order to summon fiends.
Even so, it is the only "hard" change to Golarion's lore that is forced by the change in rule system.
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I am reasonably confident that the diabolical “summoning” devils to use on the material plane would best be represented as using planar ally and not paying homage to Asmosdeus while doing so. I don’t really see this as a lore problem,
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Yes, but how does a player character get that ability?How does a player character get the Piton Pin or swig? PCs and NPCs have different abilities due to their different experiences. We should not assume that miners are canonically unable to pin people with a piton just because PCs can't do it.
I'm not a fan of this kind of thinking.
If the miners are able to pin people with a piton, then a PC should be able to learn how to do it. (It may not be worth it, but it should be possible.)
Likewise, the "Fiends Summoner" should be learnable by a PC. However, as Unicore correctly points out, here it is used as a shorthand for prior Planar Binding rituals preformed for the required diabolic allies. (Again, not cost effective for the PC, but still technically possible.)
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There's no requirement for the 2e Hellknight Signifer to be a Divine caster, so there's presumably all sorts donning the armor and mask. I'd expect an Arcane "summon a Devil" option to appear as a Ritual in the eventual Hellknights book if/when it comes along.
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Yes, but how does a player character get that ability?How does a player character get the Piton Pin or swig? PCs and NPCs have different abilities due to their different experiences. We should not assume that miners are canonically unable to pin people with a piton just because PCs can't do it.I'm not a fan of this kind of thinking.
If the miners are able to pin people with a piton, then a PC should be able to learn how to do it. (It may not be worth it, but it should be possible.)
Likewise, the "Fiends Summoner" should be learnable by a PC. However, as Unicore correctly points out, here it is used as a shorthand for prior Planar Binding rituals preformed for the required diabolic allies. (Again, not cost effective for the PC, but still technically possible.)
I'm happy to have PCs and npcs not have the same creation rules. More design space to have interesting, combat balanced rules when you don't have to be shackled to PC rules
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I'm happy to have PCs and npcs not have the same creation rules. More design space to have interesting, combat balanced rules when you don't have to be shackled to PC rulesYes, but how does a player character get that ability?How does a player character get the Piton Pin or swig? PCs and NPCs have different abilities due to their different experiences. We should not assume that miners are canonically unable to pin people with a piton just because PCs can't do it.I'm not a fan of this kind of thinking.
If the miners are able to pin people with a piton, then a PC should be able to learn how to do it. (It may not be worth it, but it should be possible.)
Likewise, the "Fiends Summoner" should be learnable by a PC. However, as Unicore correctly points out, here it is used as a shorthand for prior Planar Binding rituals preformed for the required diabolic allies. (Again, not cost effective for the PC, but still technically possible.)
Yeah, there are plenty of things that NPCs can do that can just be given to them without concerns about balance, but when it comes to allowing PCs to gain options careful consideration should be given to how a new ability could interact with others, which is very very hard to do well.
I for one, am against the concept of "anything an NPC can do, a PC should be able to do" because it makes designing the game very hard.
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I for one, am against the concept of "anything an NPC can do, a PC should be able to do" because it makes designing the game very hard.
Agreed!
Though I also think that "things that NPCs can do" is a good place to go looking when you're thinking about new things to hand out to PCs. It shouldn't be a straightjacket, but it can be an inspiration.
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I mean “adding summon fiend to your spell list” sounds very much like a feat that can be added to the game without breaking it. It feels like one likely to happen specifically around an adventure where characters are based in Cheliax and expected to be evil, since you can only summon fiends close to your own alignment.
I for one, am against the concept of "anything an NPC can do, a PC should be able to do" because it makes designing the game very hard.Agreed!
Though I also think that "things that NPCs can do" is a good place to go looking when you're thinking about new things to hand out to PCs. It shouldn't be a straightjacket, but it can be an inspiration.
Agreed with you here as well. Things NPCs can do, can make for great inspiration for new abilities or perhaps even entire dedications.
The aforementioned dock worker could become inspiration for an archetype dedications like "pirate" could have an ability based on drinking alcohol that could provide some sort of buff (but probably not the damage bonus that the dock worker gets).
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Couple of things:
1) NPCs don’t have to follow PC rules. The PCs have access to PC stuff for balance issues. Enemies have access to whatever they want to make the story work. Think of it as PCs going to one school of magic and NPCs going to another. If you think that is broken, remember it cuts both ways, I have yet to see an enemy with juggernaut or resolve.
2) Anyone (even someone without any spell casting class) can summon fiends with the religion skill through a ritual. Since most of your good aligned clerics probably won’t summon fiends for you, might as well move on to some morally corrupt magic user who can. Wizard has master religion? Let’s do this!
3) Her infernal Majistrix Aprogail’s deal with Azmodeous is perhaps one of the most complex mortal legal documents ever forged. Chances are there is some clause in there that lets government officials summon devils with some sort of stipulation.
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It's worth noting that the two books that will focus on this are still to be released. We'll likely see something in either a Hellknight book (like Firebrands, Knights of Lastwall, and PFS got) or the Old Cheliax book (like Mwangi, Absalom and Impossible Lands got). Yeah, it's weird there are no specific rules yet, but that's just because it's a part of the world that hasn't gotten a lot of 2E love yet (because it got more 1E love than any region that's not named Varisia)
Yeah, there are plenty of things that NPCs can do that can just be given to them without concerns about balance, but when it comes to allowing PCs to gain options careful consideration should be given to how a new ability could interact with others, which is very very hard to do well.
I for one, am against the concept of "anything an NPC can do, a PC should be able to do" because it makes designing the game very hard.
I concur. Wasn't the concept of "everything an npc does, PCs should get to do" part of why PF1e had that horrendous spellbloat of like 70% way-too-niche spells and then 10% "oh god why this is clearly intended for a big bad villain this is way too strong for PCs" spells? (and 20% regular whatever spells)
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The issue there is that books like Villanous Codex are more for evil characters than for good characters, and players are usually not evil.
I think you mean that player characters are usually not evil. :-)
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As for the non-mechanics question in the OP: the newest Lost Omens release has a meaty section on Cheliax, including how Thrune has replaced classic slavery with more subtle means of oppression.
People love to kick up a fuss about that one article that says “Paizo is getting rid of slavery, will refuse to ever speak of it again,” and the sensational latter half of that has repeatedly proven to be false. Golarion has been a living setting from the jump! It continues to change as it steadily approaches 20 years old.
I concur. Wasn't the concept of "everything an npc does, PCs should get to do" part of why PF1e had that horrendous spellbloat of like 70% way-too-niche spells and then 10% "oh god why this is clearly intended for a big bad villain this is way too strong for PCs" spells? (and 20% regular whatever spells)Yeah, there are plenty of things that NPCs can do that can just be given to them without concerns about balance, but when it comes to allowing PCs to gain options careful consideration should be given to how a new ability could interact with others, which is very very hard to do well.
I for one, am against the concept of "anything an NPC can do, a PC should be able to do" because it makes designing the game very hard.
I don't know that I agree with the numbers you used specifically, and I don't think the intention in PF1 was "that anything a NPC could do, your PC could" but some things, especially spells, fell into that category because of how spells work narratively. And then you had things like blood money, which isn't a problem in the hands of NPCs. But is a huge problem in the hands of PCs.
So while it wasn't the intention, and while I don't think 70% of spells are "too-niche", the end result is that there have been lots of options that existed for NPCs that result in being too powerful for PCs. Mostly coming from APs.
As for the non-mechanics question in the OP: the newest Lost Omens release has a meaty section on Cheliax, including how Thrune has replaced classic slavery with more subtle means of oppression.
People love to kick up a fuss about that one article that says “Paizo is getting rid of slavery, will refuse to ever speak of it again,” and the sensational latter half of that has repeatedly proven to be false. Golarion has been a living setting from the jump! It continues to change as it steadily approaches 20 years old.
Do you have a link? I think I missed that article and am curious how they're changing it.
I honestly have a hard time envisioning Cheliax wholly dropping classic slavery, as so much to do with Halflings was deeply ingrained. Even if the Queen and court said it was out, I imagine outside of Egorian plenty of nobles will be keeping their slaves, even if they have to be secretive about it.
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As for the non-mechanics question in the OP: the newest Lost Omens release has a meaty section on Cheliax, including how Thrune has replaced classic slavery with more subtle means of oppression.
People love to kick up a fuss about that one article that says “Paizo is getting rid of slavery, will refuse to ever speak of it again,” and the sensational latter half of that has repeatedly proven to be false. Golarion has been a living setting from the jump! It continues to change as it steadily approaches 20 years old.
Do you have a link? I think I missed that article and am curious how they're changing it.
I honestly have a hard time envisioning Cheliax wholly dropping classic slavery, as so much to do with Halflings was deeply ingrained. Even if the Queen and court said it was out, I imagine outside of Egorian plenty of nobles will be keeping their slaves, even if they have to be secretive about it.
It's a week until it comes out, but the article being discussed is in Lost Omens: Firebrands, I'm pretty sure.
So is that like a replacement to or an expansion of the Bellflower network that operated in Cheliax. Or perhaps the Bellflowers are an example of the firebrands being referred to and we will get more details of them and other similar groups.
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I really hope the bellflower network haven't been shafted. I usually find most "good guy org" rather bland and unappealing no matter the settings, but those I like very much, even if I'm not sure myself why. I haven't read the firebrand book, but so far they've been in that "bland" box for me, so I'll be disapointed if they end up replacing the network.
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I think it is hard to introduce new organizations in setting books or rules books and not in an AP where players get to learn the introductory lore of the new organization very organically. Hell knights are somehow interesting to me, even if I pretty much dislike everything about them conceptually, because of how well and how interestingly they have been worked into APs, from council of thieves, to hell’s rebels, even into PF2 with age of ashes. I feel like the bell flower network got this treatment well. Firebrands haven’t gotten it yet. I built a homebrew campaign starting off in Vidrian and tied to the politics of that nation as the party proceeded to explore the Korir river and try to make alliances with the peoples on it and get to know them as they tried to charter a trade Route between Vidrian and Kibwe. I think a campaign like that, where the firebrands exist as an organization in a politically unstable Umyango, with other influences including walkers prophets preaching isolationism, and remnants of the Aspis consortium working to maintain colonial networks to the north would really help sell the organization.
Bringing back the OP, I really enjoy reading the dissolution of Cherish imperialism in PF2 setting lore. I don’t think any of it has really been erased as much as grown past.
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So is that like a replacement to or an expansion of the Bellflower network that operated in Cheliax. Or perhaps the Bellflowers are an example of the firebrands being referred to and we will get more details of them and other similar groups.
Even those of us without the new book have some info on who the Firebrands are from the Lost Omens Character Guide! They're a group originally formed from an alliance of revolutionaries from Ravounel and Vidrian, but who have spread out over the last ~6 years or so. Their primary goal is abolition of slavery, but they're generally anti-authoritarian and oppose oppressive hierarchies. Though they do have a group that tries directly to help the people they've helped liberate, the most well known Firebrands are flashy, over-the-top combatants who intentionally draw the enemies' attention to them to divert attention from groups like the Bellflower Network, which operates best in secrecy. There's even an interesting archetype for them - though without a fortune effect (assurance, most likely) it's difficult to use.
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As for the non-mechanics question in the OP: the newest Lost Omens release has a meaty section on Cheliax, including how Thrune has replaced classic slavery with more subtle means of oppression.
People love to kick up a fuss about that one article that says “Paizo is getting rid of slavery, will refuse to ever speak of it again,” and the sensational latter half of that has repeatedly proven to be false. Golarion has been a living setting from the jump! It continues to change as it steadily approaches 20 years old.
Do you have a link? I think I missed that article and am curious how they're changing it.
I honestly have a hard time envisioning Cheliax wholly dropping classic slavery, as so much to do with Halflings was deeply ingrained. Even if the Queen and court said it was out, I imagine outside of Egorian plenty of nobles will be keeping their slaves, even if they have to be secretive about it.
Way I read the comments in the book's product thread, it is properly Asmodean : you're not slaves anymore, but you owe your former masters everything and it will take generations to buy back that debt, if ever. Enjoy the status change, Slips.
And since it is the Queen's will, it is Hell-backed law. Pretty sure dissenting nobles will be few and far between and quickly squashed.
Also it helps with international relations : see, we too are a reasonable modern nation that abolished slavery. One less weapon in the hands of Cheliax' enemies.
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Yeah, it look like how modern world handle slavery. It doesn't exist, almost every country bans it... but most actually have laws that make "slavery in everything but name" legal. Basically, it's not slavery if it doesn't say "slave" on the paper, and if there's technically some convoluted way to get out of it (don't expect your master to explain them to you tho, no obligation to do so, after all everyone should already know the law)
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I see, slavery with extra steps.
Call it indentured servitude. Technically pay them a wage. Charge more for feeding them, clothing them, and sheltering them that costs more than you pay. Also have the whole of society refuse to employee them without papers showing their indentured service has ended, and even refuse to shelter them. In fact, make it a crime to help them by providing food or shelter.
I think I understand now.
You are technically free, but you have no where else to live, nothing to eat, and can't make it to anywhere else to get any of those things.
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The Bellflower Network still exist and still work to secretly move people out of bad circumstances, it’s just that many of those Halflings in Cheliax are now conscripted or in debt slavery, rather than regular slavery. They work closely with the Firebrands, as both hate tyrants, but one is an underground railroad and the other is a movement big enough to include fashionista pirates.