Innate spells vs traditional spells


Rules Discussion


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

At what points does an innate spell mechanically differ from a traditional spell?

- Method of obtainment
- Spell DC calculation
- Daily use calculation

Is there anything else though?

For example...
...do they have somatic, verbal, or material (or other) components?
...do they have spell manifestations (lights, sound, or other observable stimuli) during casting?
...can they be readily identified like other spells?
...can you use them to power the creation of magical items?
...are they treated as having slots for the purposes of preparing staves and other slot-dependent mechanics?

I'm sure there are a thousand other areas in the rules where they do and don't intersect. Please feel free to adress those as well. These are just those I was able to think of off the top of my head in the moment.


Ravingdork wrote:


For example...
...do they have somatic, verbal, or material (or other) components?
...do they have spell manifestations (lights, sound, or other observable stimuli) during casting?
...can they be readily identified like other spells?
...can you use them to power the creation of magical items?
...are they treated as having slots for the purposes of preparing staves and other slot-dependent mechanics?

Some of these are answered Per RAW, others are strongly implied.

Innate Spells pg 302 CRB wrote:

If you have an innate spell, you can cast it, even if it's not of a spell level you can normally cast. This is especially common for monsters, which might be able to cast innate spells far beyond what a character of the same level could use. Since this magic is innate, you can replace any material component with a somatic component).

You can't use your spell slots to cast your innate spells, but you might have an innate spell and also be able to prepare or cast the same spell through your class. You also can't heighten innate spells, but some abilities that grant innate spells might give you the spell at a higher level than its base level or change the level at which you cast the spell.

So the bold above, an innate spell is implied to have normal spell components. In the "Casting a Spell" section, it make no distinction between slots, innate, or focus as far as the casting mechanics work. So I would say they also have the same manifestations as well.

No rules speak directly to IDing an Innate Spell, but I would say there is no reason it can't work just like any other spell.

Innate spell are NOT spell slots. It is pretty clear from the above that Innate Spells do not interact with your spellcasting ability unless specifically stated otherwise. You can't use them for charging a staff b/c staffs require spell slots.

I don't see why an innate spell can't be used for crafting a magic item, but YMMV.


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Well, let's see: they are spells in the Spells chapter, so any general rules apply unless explicitly stated otherwise. Furthermore:

CRB wrote:
You gain the ability to Cast a Spell and use any spellcasting actions necessary to cast your innate spells; since this magic is innate, you can replace any material component with a somatic component. Innate spells don’t let you qualify for abilities that require you to be a spellcaster.
CRB wrote:
Craft Requirements Supply one casting of

So:

Ravingdork wrote:

For example...

...do they have somatic, verbal, or material (or other) components?
Yes, except material
...do they have spell manifestations (lights, sound, or other observable stimuli) during casting?
Yes
...can they be readily identified like other spells?
Yes
...can you use them to power the creation of magical items?
Yes
...are they treated as having slots for the purposes of preparing staves and other slot-dependent mechanics?
No


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thanks everyone! What other differences might there be?

If there are components and/or casting manifestations, then it would appear that many of the more discreet bestiary monsters really function as advertised.

Take the doppelganger or succubus, for example: It's pretty much impossible for them to discreetly read minds, which is basically their thing.

The idea that such a creature would go "Just a moment" before running around a corner, then stepping out again a moment later ready to rake brains, comes off as ludicrous and cartoony to me as Clark hopping into a phone booth to become Superman.


Since when do NPC monsters follow PC rules?

Being able to cast spells without manifestations is something that a Wizard can do. Writing that into each relevant creature's stat block sounds like an Invisible Ability.


Ravingdork wrote:

Thanks everyone! What other differences might there be?

If there are components and/or casting manifestations, then it would appear that many of the more discreet bestiary monsters really function as advertised.

Take the doppelganger or succubus, for example: It's pretty much impossible for them to discreetly read minds, which is basically their thing.

The idea that such a creature would go "Just a moment" before running around a corner, then stepping out again a moment later ready to rake brains, comes off as ludicrous and cartoony to me as Clark hopping into a phone booth to become Superman.

Switch those spells to Constant Spells instead if you find an issue with it.

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