BloodandDust |
BloodandDust wrote:Someone Fleeing very well might try to "cool-aid man" a door before realizing it's a pull instead of a push though (which is why public venues have 'panic bar' style exit doors).While I find most of your argument pertinent to drawing the distinction between different levels of panicked fleeing, I feel this point is inaccurate. While it may be true that there are times when a person is so scared that they forget how to interact with basic objects around them, the panic bar isn't designed so much for what happens when one person flees but when a crowd flees, adding mass to the equation that would make it difficult for the people at the front to open the door with the added pressure of all the bodies behind them crushing them against the door.
That's a very good point.
graystone |
"Retreating", without qualifiers, is a controlled move away from the enemy.
This is factually incorrect, so I disagree you got the point as you continue to say it is. So on a very basic, literal level I find your argument baseless and without merit: it's basic English and word definitions you're arguing against. I've shown my works [multiple entries that say rout is a retreat and is a synonym (Oxford Languages, thesaurus.com)] while you haven't shown your work [showing anything that specifically says a synonym isn't one] and just keep asserting your own judgment is correct.
So you have to PROVE that rout isn't a retreat or that fleeing isn't a retreat. For instance, I can show SYNONYMS FOR flee on thesaurus.com that lists retreat as a synonym for flee... What do you have that says something similar for your side???
PS: Or that retreat is by default orderly [and the only possible definition] would work too.
The Fleeing condition is not a happy fun time: "You're forced to run away due to fear or some other compulsion"
At no time does it say it's mindless fleeing: quite the opposite, it even allows you to do manipulate actions is that would allow you to move further. So it's NOT a flee at full speed away without taking anything else into consideration. 'You have to use Movement to get further away from the source' and 'Move at full speed as far as you possible can' are 2 different things and the condition only asks for the first.
Sibelius Eos Owm |
It's been said a few times already but synonyms are not universally applicable absent of context and thesauruses are notoriously poor places to look for definitions. Debating about semantics is pretty clearly not going to get this debate anywhere, especially not insulting one another's grasp of 'basic English'.
Regardless of word choice, to me it seems clear that whatever action will get you furthest from the source of the fear/compulsion is the one you must take, whether this means running or flying in a straight line away, running around an obstacle, or clearing some hurdle that can't be navigated around, such as opening a door or jumping over a low wall. To others it seems clear that the creature in question makes a guarded, tactical retreat to some place of safety until the effect runs out.
Exactly how and where a target must escape is by necessity subject to a GM judgment call sooner or later, so there is simply no 100% definitive answer that can be rigorously applied in every circumstance. I struggle to picture a fear effect which can make a hardened warrior (or demon, or ghost, or other) choose to run away from combat which also leaves them in possession of enough faculties to make a full tactical retreat. Others may not find this strange to accept. No matter.
graystone |
I would feel rather cheated if I caused an enemy to have to flee and all it did was take a step away. That same consideration should go both ways.
Well, 3 move actions: for myself, as long as it works both ways, I'm fine with it.
It's been said a few times already but synonyms are not universally applicable absent of context and thesauruses are notoriously poor places to look for definitions. Debating about semantics is pretty clearly not going to get this debate anywhere, especially not insulting one another's grasp of 'basic English'.
I was commenting on others saying that one and only 1 definition was the correct way to read it [AND not actually providing any basis for it]. And it's not an insult, as there has been nothing backing the stance past their own opinion vs definition and other synonyms on the other. IMO, it IS about basic English as that was used as the basis of the argument to start with.
Now, I'll agree synonyms aren't the best place for definition, but I ALSO provided definition from multiple dictionary sites in addition to them while the other side provided personal anecdotes of military terms...
Regardless of word choice, to me it seems clear that whatever action will get you furthest from the source of the fear/compulsion is the one you must take, whether this means running or flying in a straight line away, running around an obstacle, or clearing some hurdle that can't be navigated around, such as opening a door or jumping over a low wall. To others it seems clear that the creature in question makes a guarded, tactical retreat to some place of safety until the effect runs out.
I'd disagree with furthest most strenuously: a leap off of a 300' cliff might get you the furthest away but I don't think flee would require that. There is the related safety matter as the furthest away might not be the safest direction away: the furthest away might be closer to other dangers while closer might lead to better security. You clearly have the wherewithal to make immediate actions like opening door and aren't in such a rush that you can't think. This is where the question about the 5' comes about: if you are forced to move when you might trigger a monsters reaction to it, are you then required to do other things that can be dangerous like leap off that cliff, run though fire, ect.? Personally, I'd wouldn't be happy is a monster had something that caused flee and I was forced to hop off a cliff to my death nor would I expect a foe to have to.
Exactly how and where a target must escape is by necessity subject to a GM judgment call sooner or later, so there is simply no 100% definitive answer that can be rigorously applied in every circumstance. I struggle to picture a fear effect which can make a hardened warrior (or demon, or ghost, or other) choose to run away from combat which also leaves them in possession of enough faculties to make a full tactical retreat. Others may not find this strange to accept. No matter.
No disagreement it's DM fiat: my disagreement is that it's wording requires anything other than what's stated: "spend each of your actions trying to escape the source of the fleeing condition as expediently as possible (such as by using move actions to flee, or opening doors barring your escape)."
For me, that means things like Step, Sneak, Tumble Through, ect would qualify, especially if they were the 'safest' method for the character. I'd even say things like a Scout's Fleeting Shadow would count as even though the activity isn't a move action, it contains move action subordinate actions and counts as using every action to move further away.
Sibelius Eos Owm |
Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:Regardless of word choice, to me it seems clear that whatever action will get you furthest from the source of the fear/compulsion is the one you must take, whether this means running or flying in a straight line away, running around an obstacle, or clearing some hurdle that can't be navigated around, such as opening a door or jumping over a low wall. To others it seems clear that the creature in question makes a guarded, tactical retreat to some place of safety until the effect runs out.There is the related safety matter as the furthest away might not be the safest direction away: the furthest away might be closer to other dangers while closer might lead to better security. You clearly have the wherewithal to make immediate actions like opening door and aren't in such a rush that you can't think. This is where the question about the 5' comes about: if you are forced to move when you might trigger a monsters reaction to it, are you then required to do other things that can be dangerous like leap off that cliff, run though fire, ect.? Personally, I'd wouldn't be happy is a monster had something that caused flee and I was forced to hop off a cliff to my death nor would I expect a foe to have to.
Fair--I would read a cliff as an obstacle around which you would be allowed to navigate (effectively treating the cliff as a wall unless you can fly or have a climb speed). To me a monster's AoO is not an obstacle in the same way--that a creature might be able hurt you if you fled from it doesn't strike me as the same kind of risk as trying to run through a flame or off a cliff.
On the other hand, I'm not sure that it is clear that you aren't in such a rush that you can't think. You're not mindless, but I don't consider actions like opening a door as those that require thought, merely a snap decision based on your experience which is the fastest way out. If for some reason the door you came in was closed, you'd still be able to know that running to the door, opening it, and running through it is the best way to get the most distance, even if strictly speaking the corner of the room is the furthest point in that room from the monster.
In the moment when the only directive on their mind is to run away, I'm happy to allow characters choose to run around obvious dangers that will harm them, such as open flames or cliffs. On the other hand, if they had some ability that rendered those dangers at best an ambiguous threat, I might require them to treat those dangers as a viable route--example, legendary catfall means the cliff might just be the safest option to escape, or if they could trivially move through the flames without harm. On the other hand, taking a guarded step away from an enemy that may or may not react, and if it does, may or may not actually hit... is not to me a significant enough factor to justify reducing your speed to 5' for that action.
(although in the moment I might also excuse a person from jumping a 500' cliff even if they have catfall, depending whether their character has any way to get back and how climactic the fight is supposed to be.)
Jared Walter 356 |
I struggle to picture a fear effect which can make a hardened warrior (or demon, or ghost, or other) choose to run away from combat which also leaves them in possession of enough faculties to make a full tactical retreat. Others may not find this strange to accept. No matter.
This isn't even hard. A level two fighter is fighting a level 1 pickpocket and suddenly realizes it's a level 14 Gylou. Yeah, they would run, in a way that avoids their AoO.
BloodandDust |
BloodandDust wrote:"Retreating", without qualifiers, is a controlled move away from the enemy.This is factually incorrect,
No, it is not. You seem not to fully understand what a synonym is or how a thesaurus is used.
so I disagree you got the point as you continue to say it is.
Clearly =)
So on a very basic, literal level I find your argument baseless and without merit: it's basic English and word definitions you're arguing against. I've shown my works [multiple entries that say rout is a retreat and is a synonym (Oxford Languages, thesaurus.com)]
Synonyms are *possible* replacements for an original word. They are not exact replacements and almost always (not always!) have different context, frequently very different. That is one reason why we have different words for things... to provide specific context.
while you haven't shown your work [showing anything that specifically says a synonym isn't one] and just keep asserting your own judgment is correct.
So you have to PROVE that rout isn't a retreat or that fleeing isn't a retreat.
Well, no. Not obligated to prove the sky is blue. I already know that Fleeing and Retreating are not exact substitutes and did need to reference a dictionary to learn how the words are used, I have a career in it.
More to the point: the PF2E condition is "Fleeing", not "Retreating" or "Flee". Your own chosen reference Thesaurus.com does not support your position:
1) shows the word as "fleeing (adj. out of control)"
2) lists delinquent, escaped, uncontrolled, fugitive, running, wild, disorderly, loose, and out of hand as the synonyms
3) lists controlled, stable, staying, and steady as antonyms
Note that the context for all of those varies - they are not exact replacements. I mean replacing "fleeing" with "delinquent" is a stretch for most uses, right? However none really describe a careful withdrawal either, they all lean pretty close to panic.
For instance, I can show SYNONYMS FOR flee on thesaurus.com that lists retreat as a synonym for flee... What do you have that says something similar for your side???
I don't have a side, exactly, and am not here to fight with you.
PS: Or that retreat is by default orderly [and the only possible definition] would work too.
That's just the way it is, that's the context. Retreat is a broad term, but without qualifiers it means an orderly exit from combat, where people "fall back" or "withdraw". A Rout is a disorderly exit from combat, where people "flee" or "run away"...and might also be named a "panicked retreat" or a "failed retreat".
BloodandDust wrote:The Fleeing condition is not a happy fun time: "You're forced to run away due to fear or some other compulsion"At no time does it say it's mindless fleeing: quite the opposite, it even allows you to do manipulate actions is that would allow you to move further. So it's NOT a flee at full speed away without taking anything else into consideration. 'You have to use Movement to get further away from the source' and 'Move at full speed as far as you possible can' are 2 different things and the condition only asks for the first.
"Mindless" is your addition, and goes a bit beyond the PF2E condition. The PF2E condition *is* "Fleeing" though, and it results (usually) from critically failing a save against fear. Hard to see that as compatible with cautiously stepping away.
graystone |
No, it is not. You seem not to fully understand what a synonym is or how a thesaurus is used.
It's simple to prove it: quote something from a source. Id did and it proved you weren't correct. Feel free to look for proof of your own.
Synonyms are *possible* replacements for an original word.
Sure, but I used definitions and explanations too so the context is clear.
Well, no. Not obligated to prove the sky is blue. I already know that Fleeing and Retreating are not exact substitutes and did need to reference a dictionary to learn how the words are used, I have a career in it.
More to the point: the PF2E condition is "Fleeing", not "Retreating" or "Flee". Your own chosen reference Thesaurus.com does not support your position:
1) shows the word as "fleeing (adj. out of control)"
2) lists delinquent, escaped, uncontrolled, fugitive, running, wild, disorderly, loose, and out of hand as the synonyms
3) lists controlled, stable, staying, and steady as antonymsNote that the context for all of those varies - they are not exact replacements. I mean replacing "fleeing" with "delinquent" is a stretch for most uses, right? However none really describe a careful withdrawal either, they all lean pretty close to panic.
You made statements about retreating and that Retreating and Fleeing are different and that isn't based in facts. You are obligated to back up your statement as they sure aren't obvious. My synonym listing was to show that there isn't as clear as you suggest: to further make the point:
Now you did go post a flee definition. I have some too:
run away from a place or situation of danger, run away from (someone or something): Oxford Languages
to run away often from danger or evil, to hurry toward a place of security: merriam-webster
to escape by running away, especially because of danger or fear, to run away, as from danger or pursuers; take flight, to move swiftly, to run away from (a place, person, etc.): dictionary.com
to run away, as from danger or pursuers; take flight, to move swiftly, to run away from (a place, person, etc.): Thesaurus.com
I don't have a side, exactly, and am not here to fight with you.
You have a side in a debate. You are taking an opposing position to mine. You can have a side and not be in a fight.
That's just the way it is, that's the context. Retreat is a broad term, but without qualifiers it means an orderly exit from combat, where people "fall back" or "withdraw". A Rout is a disorderly exit from combat, where people "flee" or "run away"...and might also be named a "panicked retreat" or a "failed retreat".
Please PROVE the context: show where it's defined as such. Retreat has no such default context that I know. ALL retreat mans is that you are moving away from something: full stop. You also have in the game a feat called Terrified Retreat that's about inflicting Fleeing...
"Mindless" is your addition, and goes a bit beyond the PF2E condition. The PF2E condition *is* "Fleeing" though, and it results (usually) from critically failing a save against fear. Hard to see that as compatible with cautiously stepping away.
But YOU are going a bit beyond the condition too: examples of move actions and opening doors are given with no game qualifiers and the only guidance is "as expediently as possible". expedient: suitable for achieving a particular end in a given circumstance; characterized by concern with what is opportune especially : governed by self-interest [merriam-webster], in a way that is helpful or useful in a particular situation [Cambridge dictionary] and Suitable or efficient for accomplishing a purpose, Convenient but based on a concern for self-interest rather than principle [Freedictionary].
Nothing in the condition requires fear [You're forced to run away due to fear or some other compulsion.] You also have a section in the Core Rulebook pg. 494, about Fleeing Enemies, and Chases, Gamemastery Guide pg. 156, When the PCs pursue a fleeing adversary or quarry and it's about enemies escaping combat and not running in terror: for Combining and Separating Encounters, Gamemastery Guide pg. 49, mentions "fleeing enemy" and none involve fear.
Also, Command can make you flee without any hint of fear being involved. Hence, you can't assume fear in a ruling.
Claxon |
Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:I struggle to picture a fear effect which can make a hardened warrior (or demon, or ghost, or other) choose to run away from combat which also leaves them in possession of enough faculties to make a full tactical retreat. Others may not find this strange to accept. No matter.This isn't even hard. A level two fighter is fighting a level 1 pickpocket and suddenly realizes it's a level 14 Gylou. Yeah, they would run, in a way that avoids their AoO.
The difference is that a fighter suddenly realizing they are completely outclassed by their enemy is stricken with the "fleeing" condition.
The fighter who realizes they are outclassed is an intelligent (enough) character who has decided living is more important than winning and then proceeds to try to do that. He might be somewhat scared from a narrative role play sense, but not frightened in the mechanical sense of the game system. At this stage a tactical withdrawal including movement to avoid AoO makes sense.
The fighter with the fleeing condition is so scared that they are forced to flee. To me the only way this makes sense is essentially overwhelming fear and panic. To me that is incompatible with things like taking steps (instead of strides) to avoid AoO.