Is there an official ruling yet on early munitions crafter problem?


Rules Discussion


So the problem is this. At level 1 you don't get an officially tagged ammunition AoN link for reference https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1190 and the line "or it can be packaged with a metal bullet or pellet to be used as ammunition" within the description suggests it can be used as ammo as it can be pre-packaged with the bullet or pellet. AoN link for reference https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3158 which states the following "If you use a batch of infused reagents to create basic level-0 ammunition such as black powder cartridges or black powder doses, you produce 10 rounds of ammunition." says that it counts a black powder round as ammunition which is already contradictory. in another part of GnG it states black powder is needed to make ammunition but is itself not ammunition which my GM has interpreted as meaning you spend 4 days crafting the powder and then 4 more days crafting the ammunition which comes in batches of 5 meaning 8 days of crafting to make 5 bullets. This is also how foundry classifies a black powder round as not ammo. Because it is contradictory I was wondering if there is an official paizo source clarifying it to point to in this debate. as it stands the level 1 munitions crafter feat has no possible application as anything other than bombs and there is no way to create level 0 ammunition for it in the interpretation both my GM and foundry have made as there is no level 0 alchemical ammunition in game currently.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The only official clarifications are at the Official FAQ and Errata page, and there is currently no section for Guns & Gears. I believe Michael Sayre (design manager and one of the book's authors) has made some informal clarifications of certain passages' intended meanings but am not sure if he's made mention of the sections you call out.

For what it's worth, the smallest unit of black powder is classified as being either a "dose or round." A dose is specifically not ammunition, so the obvious correction in Munitions Crafter would be to change "black powder cartridges or black powder doses" to "black powder cartridges or black powder rounds." As for what a black powder cartridge is, I have no idea.


This was his post on the subject: Firearm Ammunition

Basically a round and a dose are the same formula, not sure why you'd need to go through the process twice.


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Tarpeius wrote:
For what it's worth, the smallest unit of black powder is classified as being either a "dose or round." A dose is specifically not ammunition, so the obvious correction in Munitions Crafter would be to change "black powder cartridges or black powder doses" to "black powder cartridges or black powder rounds." As for what a black powder cartridge is, I have no idea.

A cartridge is probably the wrong term and is what should be changed to round.

So "If you use a batch of infused reagents to create basic level-0 ammunition such as black powder cartridges rounds or black powder doses, you produce 10 rounds of ammunition."

Also supported by the fact that this very line says that you are creating ammunition.

And the idea that this sentence isn't trying to tell you what you can create, just how much of it you create when creating Black Powder Dose or Round items.

Don't blindly use Foundry VTT or Pathbuilder2e as official sources for rulings. They both do a very good job of properly representing the rules, but they aren't (and can't be) perfect.


breithauptclan wrote:
Tarpeius wrote:
For what it's worth, the smallest unit of black powder is classified as being either a "dose or round." A dose is specifically not ammunition, so the obvious correction in Munitions Crafter would be to change "black powder cartridges or black powder doses" to "black powder cartridges or black powder rounds." As for what a black powder cartridge is, I have no idea.

A cartridge is probably the wrong term and is what should be changed to round.

So "If you use a batch of infused reagents to create basic level-0 ammunition such as black powder cartridges rounds or black powder doses, you produce 10 rounds of ammunition."

Also supported by the fact that this very line says that you are creating ammunition.

And the idea that this sentence isn't trying to tell you what you can create, just how much of it you create when creating Black Powder Dose or Round items.

Don't blindly use Foundry VTT or Pathbuilder2e as official sources for rulings. They both do a very good job of properly representing the rules, but they aren't (and can't be) perfect.

I don't go by their rulings, it's something I have debated with my GM and the foundry guys. Unfortunately that line which I have pointed out is ignored and I am told the book clearly does not consider the black powder round as ammo.This is why I wat to have an official source as the book contradicts itself.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Guntermench wrote:

This was his post on the subject: Firearm Ammunition

Basically a round and a dose are the same formula, not sure why you'd need to go through the process twice.

They're craftable from the same formula, but the end product isn't the same. You have to decide what to make, and G&G is clear enough that a dose isn't ammunition: a round is. Sayre is merely clarifying that a formula for black powder doses/rounds allows one to craft (A) a black powder dose or (B-Z) a firearm round for a particular type of firearm (since, unlike bows and crossbows, each type of firearm has its own bespoke type of firearm round).

I do think the RAI is clear with Munitions Crafter: you can use infused reagents to make 10 black powder rounds of some kind for free as part of daily preparation. G&G has an unusually high rate of ambiguities and outright errors among 2e publications, so hopefully we'll see errata for it this year.


Tarpeius wrote:
since, unlike bows and crossbows, each type of firearm has its own bespoke type of firearm round

Have they, though? Why? The game doesn't have such thing as caliber (and if it had, some guns would probably still remain compatible).


Errenor wrote:
Tarpeius wrote:
since, unlike bows and crossbows, each type of firearm has its own bespoke type of firearm round
Have they, though? Why? The game doesn't have such thing as caliber (and if it had, some guns would probably still remain compatible).

Yeah, it is a strange argument.

Bows and Crossbows use different ammunition from each other. Bows use arrows and Crossbows use bolts.

But the majority of firearms use the same ammunition - black powder rounds. There are a few that use a different ammunition, but not many. A Blunderbuss with the scatter trait that is described as firing a spray of pellets actually uses the same ammunition as a Flintlock Pistol.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm struggling to figure out what the problem is here. Munitions crafter lets you batch craft black powder cartridges so... you do that... and then you shoot them with your gun.

If your GM wants to houserule otherwise I mean that's fair I guess, but I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out what the problem is here from a rules perspective.


why is your ammunition coming in batches of 5? it should be coming as a batch of 10.

additionally, there's no crafting requirement on a firearm round needing black powder as a crafting material. it's either created as part of the crafting, or the raw materials you need to purchase.

crafting skill

Quote:

Consumables And Ammunition

You can Craft items with the consumable trait in batches, making up to four of the same item at once with a single check. This requires you to include the raw materials for all the items in the batch at the start, and you must complete the batch all at once. You also Craft non-magical ammunition in batches, using the quantity listed in the Ranged Weapons table (typically 10).

which would be 10 for all but 3 guns (guns and gears page 151).

---

firearm ammunition
^ while there's a 5 round version, the only weapons this can be used for are the harmona gun, dwarven scattergun, flingflenser (guns and gears page 151).
additionally, again, the stat block does not include black powder for a crafting requirement. see a staff of water for an example of a craft requirement.
also, while this does not have the alchemical trait,

Quote:
Firearms require ammunition consisting of a projectile and black powder. A round of ammo can vary in its composition but is typically either a prepackaged paper cartridge, including wadding, bullet, and black powder, or loose shot packed in manually. Some weapons, like hand cannons and blunderbusses, can fire other materials, but their ammunition has the same Price due to the cost of the black powder. Because making rounds of firearm ammunition requires creating black powder, you need the Alchemical Crafting skill feat to make them. Firearm rounds are a valid option for magical ammunition, just like arrows or bolts. Crafting magical firearm ammunition requires you to be able to craft both alchemical and magical items.

it still is alchemical in nature due to it being firearm ammunition. especially because it's also just 10 rounds of black powder which DOES have the alchemical trait.

---

as for munitions crafter,

Quote:
You gain infused reagents (a pool of reagents usable to make alchemical items) and advanced alchemy (allowing you to make alchemical items during your daily preparations without the normal cost or time expenditure). You gain batches of infused reagents per day equal to your level, which you can use to create only bombs or alchemical ammunition. Your advanced alchemy level for creating these is 1 and doesn't increase on its own. If you use a batch of infused reagents to create basic level-0 ammunition such as black powder cartridges or black powder doses, you produce 10 rounds of ammunition.

Black powder (dose or round) is located on page 169 of guns and gears, which is under the section of "ammunition" starting at page 168. This makes it ammunition, and it also contains the alchemical trait. you can use this with munitions crafter to craft ammunition.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Errenor wrote:
Tarpeius wrote:
since, unlike bows and crossbows, each type of firearm has its own bespoke type of firearm round
Have they, though? Why? The game doesn't have such thing as caliber (and if it had, some guns would probably still remain compatible).

All bows uses arrows, and all crossbows use bolts. Firearms, on the other hand, have a bespoke type of ammunition for each type of firearm (for the most part: one exception is a big boom gun, which is a hand cannon and uses hand cannon rounds). You can see this in G&G in the equipment tables: there is an ammunition type listed for each firearm type. Additionally, character inventory listings in the one-shot, Head-Shot the Rot, show examples of it in the Pregenerated Characters booklet (pg. 8): "dragon mouth rounds (20), dueling pistol rounds (20), bull’s eye lantern, firearm cleaning kit, flint and steel, healer’s tools, minor healing potions (2), leather armor, rope, 13 gp, 5 sp, 5 cp"

Finally, Sayre's own post additionally confirms this: "They go together so you're not burning entire formula books just on different types of firearm ammo."

All these (and doses) can be crafted with a single formula for a "black powder (dose or round)," but you have to pick exactly what you're crafting when you craft it.


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I have no idea why the Pregen character sheets would be listing out different amounts of particular ammunition for each firearm. Both a Dragon Mouth Pistol and a Dueling Pistol use the exact same ammunition: Firearm Ammunition.

But that wouldn't be the first time I have seen an error on a Pregen character sheet.

The vast majority of firearms use that same ammunition. The Air Repeaters do use different ammunition. And the Hand Cannon can be loaded with gunpowder and other random items (and the derivative weapons of Big Boom Gun and Spoon Gun). But that is all that I have found.

All of the other firearms use the same ammunition just like bows do and crossbows do and slings do.


i think technically all the firearm ammunitions are actually unique, but for the most part most people just use them interchangably except for harmona gun, dwarven scattergun, flingflenser which is double cost ammo.

either way, when purchasing or crafting, you're obviously going to be making stuff you can use


Unless I am still getting confused by the Archives combining all of the ammunition together when they actually aren't.

That may be possible.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

AoN's firearm ammunition entry is a construct for their website for ease of navigation rather than reflective of baseline rules.

At the same time, the idea of bespoke ammunition for each type of weapon is never really explicitly defined in GnG either.

From my experience it's something that doesn't really come up because it only really matters if you're using multiple types of guns and tracking ammunition closely, when the former is rare and it's not uncommon for groups to not bother with the latter either.


Squiggit wrote:
From my experience it's something that doesn't really come up because it only really matters if you're using multiple types of guns and tracking ammunition closely, when the former is rare and it's not uncommon for groups to not bother with the latter either.

Well, it'd matter if a PC gun user finds magic/alchemic ammo from an enemy using a different gun: IE, a dual pistol gunslinger pc and a Barricade Buster using foe with Elemental Ammunition.


Tarpeius wrote:
Errenor wrote:
Tarpeius wrote:
since, unlike bows and crossbows, each type of firearm has its own bespoke type of firearm round
Have they, though? Why? The game doesn't have such thing as caliber (and if it had, some guns would probably still remain compatible).
All bows uses arrows, and all crossbows use bolts. Firearms, on the other hand, have a bespoke type of ammunition for each type of firearm (for the most part: one exception is a big boom gun, which is a hand cannon and uses hand cannon rounds). You can see this in G&G in the equipment tables: there is an ammunition type listed for each firearm type.

Yeah, sure, I can, and the ammunition type is: "rounds". Just like "bolts" and "arrows". Not 'gun sword rounds' or ' piercing wind rounds', just 'rounds'.

As for the designer's post, first, it's not always relevant, second, what exactly was the question and the answer and where is the link?


I'm not sure what the question or complaint is any more either.

What I do realize now is that different types of firearms do actually have different ammunition.

The crafting recipe for all of them is the same - that black powder round that is the same as a black powder dose.

But having all of the firearm ammunition being the same is something that Archives of Nethys does - the actual Guns & Gears book lists them out separately.


their question was if munitions crafter actually allowed you to craft daily bullets.

their gm says no, since munitions crafter gets you raw black powder instead of ammunition, and that black powder is a craft requirement for ammunition (which it isn't).

at least that's how i read it.

my view on it is here

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