My alchemist bomber is getting into the last tiers of gameplay, and I'm wondering about Mega Bomb. It seems strong, but I was hoping to hear from some people who have actually played a 20th level alchemist before. How does it fare? Is it hard to use? It seems like it might be hard to place without catching allies in the explosion...
What are your experiences with it?
I haven't gotten nearly that far myself... my Bomber is only 10th (almost 11th).
The Feat appeals to me. It's not a lot of damage, but the idea of being able to do infinite 30' Burst Greater Alchemist's Fire appeals to me... and the Saving Throw doesn't apply to the Splash Damage. So, minimum 9 pts every time.
Nothing better for triggering Weakness in a group IMHO. But that's just an opinion. Sorry, no direct experience.
The saving throw unfortunately applies to the splash, it applies to the damage taken by primary targets and the splash is part of it. The damage is extremely low (4 dice of damage at a level where spellcasters are around 10 dice of damage), it has bad action economy (3 actions, 2 and a half with a Valet familiar), not an incredible range, an AoE that hits allies as much as enemies and a quite low saving throw DC (on top of not getting to Legendary proficiency, most Bombers take a Dex Apex Item and not an Int one). Overall, I hardly see the point of this feat.
Sorry to be such a bummer.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're the only person I've ever encountered who thinks that the Save applies to Splash. In this case, I believe you're simply mistaken.
There's nothing in the Megabomb description saying that splash damage is not subject to the Reflex save. I think you are the one mixing rules for normal Bombs and the Megabomb.
Oh hmm. I think it's definitely ambiguous. It *seems* like Splash should work as usual, but it doesn't specify. And Basic Saving Throw rules are pretty straight forward. Might just be a GM call. I think personally, since Splash is only avoided if you critically fail your attack roll (on a normal bomb), I think I'd rule that the Splash applies as normal unless the target(s) critically succeed their Reflex save against the Mega Bomb. And then halve or double the primary damage as usual. Mega Bomb apparently needs all the help it can get anyway lol...
As written, Splash is a separate component than the primary damage.
You are applying Bomb rules to the Megabomb.
As written, there is no Splash to the Megabomb. There is splash damage only. Because you deal the damage the primary target takes, you deal for example with an Alchemist's Fire and all Splash increasing feats: 4d8 fire damage and 10 fire splash damage. It's splash damage (it triggers Backfire Mantel and Swarms weaknesses) but no splash (it doesn't affect the targets around each target or other rules of splash).I fully agree that the ability is badly written, and if Paizo intent is to separate Bomb Splash damage from Bomb direct damage then they completely failed at just writing it. As is, the Mega Bomb just deals "damage as if each creature were the primary target" with a basic Reflex save to reduce it. There's no other damage and as such any damage that isn't covered by the Reflex save is just not dealt.
For something called a "Mega Bomb", it looks pretty underwhelming...
as written, everyone takes the primary damage with a reflex save, and everyone takes the splash damage as a primary target.
so everyone should take the splash damage as full damage...
You're making a far fetched implication out of this sentence.
Everyone in the area takes damage as primary target. The damage as primary target is composed of both the bomb direct damage and the bomb splash damage. When stating "While all targets in the area take splash damage" they just restate it. They don't say that targets take any extra bunch of damage outside the one that is affected by the save.
And actually it's important to restate it as the sentence "The bomb deals damage as if each creature were the primary target" can be interpreted in 2 ways: Either the Mega Bomb does only the direct hit damage or the direct hit damage + splash damage. Thanks to this sentence, you know the Mega Bomb is also supposed to deal the Splash damage.
Now, we may have an RAI discussion as I fully agree there may be an intent (this ability is quite unique so it's hard to know the intent). But RAW is clear.
First, Splash damage doesn't necessarily imply Splash. Look at the never ending debate about Acid Splash and whether or not the point of Splash damage should imply Splash.
And even if you consider this implication, Splash applies to single target AC-based attacks when we are dealing with an AoE save-based attack. So you don't have a single line to base your ruling on (if you find a line stating that Splash damage is not affected by basic saves, I'd change my point of view, but I don't think it'll happen). So you houserule an AoE save-base Splash. Fine. But don't call it RAW, RAW has to be written somewhere.
Well...
That's a weird situation, because we don't understand the same thing from the same sentence. And when the conversation moves to basic English grammar I feel there's an issue. I have already been in rules debate where a sentence was having 2 different meanings, so I'll be open in that case.
The "while" at the beginning of the sentence means to me that it repeats something already said before. So the first part of the sentence is not a statement to me. It reminds of the part about the damage and the basic Reflex save.
What makes your think that "While all targets in the area take splash damage as primary targets" is a statement and not a reminder?
While all targets in the area take splash damage as primary targets, there is no further splash beyond that area.
What you're ignoring is the second half of the compound sentence. The first half states that all targets take splash as primary targets. Normal splash behaviour is that everything in a certain area around the primary target takes splash damage as well. The second half modifies that behaviour. (For which I'm grateful. Can you imagine the hassle of figuring out what gets hit because the splash would radiate out from any targets on the edges of the 30' burst?)
It's a fairly common sentence structure. Compare to "While I normally drive to work, my car is in the shop today forcing me to walk."
While all targets in the area take splash damage as primary targets, there is no further splash beyond that area.What you're ignoring is the second half of the compound sentence. The first half states that all targets take splash as primary targets. Normal splash behaviour is that everything in a certain area around the primary target takes splash damage as well. The second half modifies that behaviour. (For which I'm grateful. Can you imagine the hassle of figuring out what gets hit because the splash would radiate out from any targets on the edges of the 30' burst?)
It's a fairly common sentence structure. Compare to "While I normally drive to work, my car is in the shop today forcing me to walk."
I get the sentence, as I stated above getting into English grammar discussion is the sign that there's a double meaning somewhere as I don't think any of us has issues reading English.
The splash damage comes from the "The bomb deals damage as if each creature were the primary target". The primary target takes splash damage and as such this sentence inflicts splash damage to the targets with a Reflex save to reduce it.
And I don't think you consider targets take the splash damage twice, both reduced by the Reflex save and not reduced.
No, but as shroudb states, splash is separate from Bomb damage. Always has been. That's why there's a specific rule that the splash damage is combined with the main damage for the purposes of Weakness and Resistance.
You believe "The bomb deals damage as if each creature were the primary target, with a basic Reflex save." includes splash. which shroudb and I both disagree with. "The bomb deals damage" does not automatically include splash. Splash is dealt with separately, as it should be. And when splash is dealt with, there is no mention of a reflex save.
as shroudb states, splash is separate from Bomb damage. Always has been.
That's an interpretation, not the rules. The rules say "The bomb deals damage as if each creature were the primary target". You can understand it strictly: the bomb deals the damage that is only dealt to the primary target (so the direct damage without the Splash). Or you can understand it in a more general way: the Bomb deals all the damage that the primary target takes, as such it's direct hit damage + splash.
Splash is dealt with separately, as it should be.
And here's the issue with your interpretation, there's no support for the "as it should be". You are taking the rules from Bombs and apply them to Mega Bomb, and because Mega Bomb doesn't work like Bombs, you make your own houserule. There's no rule for Splash damage on a basic save-based ability, and there's nothing in Mega Bomb explaining how you should apply splash.
My interpretation, on the other hand, doesn't ask for a houserule to be applied. That's why I say it's the proper RAW interpretation. But I fully agree that an RAI case can be made for your interpretation, but for that you need a way to handle Splash...
Of course I'm going to apply the rules for Bombs to a Mega Bomb. A Mega Bomb is still a Bomb. Mega Bomb is an Additive feat.
Feats with the additive trait allow you to spend actions to add special substances to bombs or elixirs.
Mega Bomb doesn't create something entirely new. It is a substance added to a Bomb that changes certain aspects of its behaviour. Nowhere does it say "toss out every rule regarding Bombs and only follow this text."
So I'm not houseruling. I'm following the rules for Bombs, which still apply unless specifically changed. So, a Mega Bomb still has the Splash trait. Nothing in the text removes it. We are told that a) all targets in the area take splash damage as primary targets and that b) unlike normal, the splash damage doesn't hit everything within a certain range of the primary target ("there is no further splash beyond that area"). That's it.
So I'm not houseruling. I'm following the rules for Bombs,
Rules for Bombs: "Most bombs also have the splash trait. When you use a thrown weapon with the splash trait, you don't add your Strength modifier to the damage roll. If an attack with a splash weapon fails, succeeds, or critically succeeds, all creatures within 5 feet of the target (including the target) take the listed splash damage. On a critical failure, the bomb misses entirely, dealing no damage. Add splash damage together with the initial damage against the target before applying the target's resistance or weakness. You don't multiply splash damage on a critical hit."
As Mega Bomb is not an attack, there's no Splash. Unless you come up with a houserule...
If you need a houserule to support your interpretation of RAW, you should look for another interpretation.
As Mega Bomb is not an attack, there's no Splash. Unless you come up with a houserule...
all targets in the area take splash damage as primary targets
The feat states, outright, that all targets take splash damage. What is unclear here?
1) A Mega Bomb is still a Bomb.
2) A Mega Bomb doesn't use a Strike. It is Thrown with an Interact action.
3) Question: How does Splash apply if there is no attack roll?
4) Answer: "all targets in the area take splash damage as primary targets"
So, despite the absence of an attack roll, the Feat states that all targets take splash damage. No option to get out of it... they take splash damage.
All completely RAW.
As Mega Bomb is not an attack, there's no Splash. Unless you come up with a houserule...all targets in the area take splash damage as primary targetsThe feat states, outright, that all targets take splash damage. What is unclear here?
1) A Mega Bomb is still a Bomb.
2) A Mega Bomb doesn't use a Strike. It is Thrown with an Interact action.
3) Question: How does Splash apply if there is no attack roll?
4) Answer: "all targets in the area take splash damage as primary targets"So, despite the absence of an attack roll, the Feat states that all targets take splash damage. No option to get out of it... they take splash damage.
All completely RAW.
I love your partial quote.
The sentence is "While all targets in the area take splash damage as primary targets". Great. Where's the rule about this Splash damage, then? The Bomb rule about Splash damage isn't applicable, so you need another one.On the other hand, my interpretation works. Maybe you should consider it.
We are going back and forth, so it's time to take a step back.
Our issue is that the sentence "The bomb deals damage as if each creature were the primary target" has 2 interpretations. My interpretation is literal, the primary target takes direct damage + splash damage. Yours is less literal but in my opinion equally valid.
Then, there's the sentence "While all targets in the area take splash damage as primary targets, there is no further splash beyond that area.". It causes issue with your interpretation as the use of "while" refers to a previous statement about Splash damage, and the only such statement (the Bomb Splash trait) is not applicable to the Mega Bomb. To fully support your interpretation, the sentence should have been "All targets in the area take splash damage as primary targets but there is no further splash beyond that area.". Still, there are tons of badly written abilities in the game so your interpretation has a high level of validity, in my opinion.
My interpretation, on the other hand, doesn't have the issue with this sentence and as of now you haven't even tried to disprove it. So I consider it perfectly valid until proven otherwise. As such it has a very high level of validity.
Unless we find a similar ability or some developer word that would hint at an intent, I'll stick to the interpretation with the highest validity. And I feel you'll stick to yours, so we'll certainly have to agree to disagree.