Demolition Fulu stacking


Rules Discussion


I'm still reading through Treasure Vault, but I'm looking at the entry for demolition fulus right now, which reduce an object's Hardness before dealing damage to it. The thing is, there are multiple levels of demolition fulu, but reading the entry it seems like the Hardness reduction stacks - in which case the higher-level versions are only useful for being harder for an enemy to spot and disable.

As an example, the highest-Hardness material class in the CRB is "iron or steel structure" with 18 Hardness, 72 HP, and 36 BT (obviously a GM can set higher statistics, if they'd like). You can slap 11 3rd-level demolition fulus on a steel door for less than half the price of an 11th-level demolition fulu and deal 18d6 damage (and change) to it, handily breaking it in most cases, whereas the 11th-level fulu will deal 6d6-7 damage.

So I suppose my question here is, am I reading this right? Is there anything I'm missing? The wording of the fulu is "the fulu lowers the Hardness of the object it's affixed to" - it's not a typed penalty, but phrased like other various adjustments to statistics that are effectively untyped bonuses/penalties but aren't directly stated to be such.


It do not say that it permanently lowers the hardness, but then again it could have used another terminological if that was not the case.

also just because you slap several on the object dont make the damage stack, just like attacking several time in a row dont make the damage stack for overcoming damage resistance.


This falls under the "if it seems too good to be true" catch. Yeah, if you carefully read the untyped penalty rules, this would probably stack. But if two level 11 fulus do more than a level 17 fulu for a fifth of the price, and ten level 3 fulus are half that price and even better (ignoring the stealth modifier), then it's clear they shouldn't stack.


Nelzy wrote:

It do not say that it permanently lowers the hardness, but then again it could have used another terminological if that was not the case.

also just because you slap several on the object dont make the damage stack, just like attacking several time in a row dont make the damage stack for overcoming damage resistance.

The 11 3rd-level fulu example isn't combining the damage for the purposes of Hardness, to be clear. Each fulu is -3 Hardness and 3d6 damage immediately afterwards, so the first 3 fulus have a chance of doing some damage but still have to compete with high Hardness, fulus 4 & 5 likely do a little bit of damage, and the damage from 6-11 is done against 0 Hardness, so you can add it all up to 18d6 and say 1-5 did some amount extra that's too much of a pain to calculate on the back of a napkin.


egindar wrote:
Nelzy wrote:

It do not say that it permanently lowers the hardness, but then again it could have used another terminological if that was not the case.

also just because you slap several on the object dont make the damage stack, just like attacking several time in a row dont make the damage stack for overcoming damage resistance.

The 11 3rd-level fulu example isn't combining the damage for the purposes of Hardness, to be clear. Each fulu is -3 Hardness and 3d6 damage immediately afterwards, so the first 3 fulus have a chance of doing some damage but still have to compete with high Hardness, fulus 4 & 5 likely do a little bit of damage, and the damage from 6-11 is done against 0 Hardness, so you can add it all up to 18d6 and say 1-5 did some amount extra that's too much of a pain to calculate on the back of a napkin.

Can you quote the actual text? Not all of us have access to the book yet, and even though you claimed in the OP that it looks like the hardness reductions stack I find that hard to believe and would like to read the exact wording myself before chiming in


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Ah, forgot about the people who wait for it to show up on Nethys, since it's out on pdf/print and Foundry pushed the update already. Here's the full text.

Demolition Fulus wrote:

Traits Consumable, Evocation, Fulu, Magical

Usage affixed to an object or structure; Bulk --

A demolition fulu allows a saboteur or excavator to be far away from the scene when demolition happens. The fulu crumbles to ash over 5 minutes to 8 hours, as you determine when you place the fulu. Once the duration ends, the fulu lowers the Hardness of the object it’s affixed to by an amount equal to the fulu’s level and then deals the listed damage to the object. A demolition fulu serves as a hazard with a Stealth DC to detect it and Thievery DC to disable it according to its type.

Type lesser; Level 3; Price 12 gp
Sometimes called the moth fulu, good for destroying softer objects; 3d6 bludgeoning damage, DC 17.
Type moderate; Level 11; Price 275 gp
Sometimes called the termite fulu, good for destroying wood objects; 6d6 bludgeoning damage, DC 28.
Type greater; Level 17; Price 2,750 gp
Sometimes called the rust fulu, good for destroying metal objects; 10d6 bludgeoning damage, DC 37.


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egindar wrote:
Nelzy wrote:

It do not say that it permanently lowers the hardness, but then again it could have used another terminological if that was not the case.

also just because you slap several on the object dont make the damage stack, just like attacking several time in a row dont make the damage stack for overcoming damage resistance.

The 11 3rd-level fulu example isn't combining the damage for the purposes of Hardness, to be clear. Each fulu is -3 Hardness and 3d6 damage immediately afterwards, so the first 3 fulus have a chance of doing some damage but still have to compete with high Hardness, fulus 4 & 5 likely do a little bit of damage, and the damage from 6-11 is done against 0 Hardness, so you can add it all up to 18d6 and say 1-5 did some amount extra that's too much of a pain to calculate on the back of a napkin.

Fair! I was mostly ignoring the damage, since that's pretty easy to get from many, many sources, as compared to hardness reduction. You shouldn't be able to reduce a high-grade adamantium structure to the hardness of cheesecloth for... 34 hardness / 3 hardness per fulu * 12 gp per fulu = 136 gp.


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There's some question about what PF 2e's goals are around object damage, but something else I'm thinking about now is that it's a little strange to remove object damage capabilities from most spells and avoid implementing any guidelines for Striking objects, and then introduce a common consumable that can break a lot of objects pretty easily, especially smaller ones like locks. If the intent is to let GMs adjudicate it as needed for their stories (which is my best guess for intent at this point), then having a defined (and pretty accessible) way to damage objects is surprising.


Ignoring the obvious alert the demo fulu going would cause in anyone nearby, the reduction in hardness seems to be a permanent effect.

So if the object isn't destroyed, it's hardness is still reduced by the list amount. If that is the case, then you set multiple charges to go off one after the other and down the obstruction goes.

The item problem needs to change it's wording that the effect of lowering the hardness only applies in relation to the damage that demo fulu charge causes.

Now your level 3 fulu reduces the hardness of your iron door to 15 for only that "attack" and has a low chance to deal any damage.

But as written, using any fulu charge just reduces the hardness permanently.


Claxon wrote:
The item problem needs to change it's wording that the effect of lowering the hardness only applies in relation to the damage that demo fulu charge causes.

Change reduction to an item penalty to hardness: that way it doesn't stack.


A lot of Fulu are also Talismans. Perhaps it is an unwritten expectation - at least by some of the writers - that only one Fulu at a time can be applied to an object too.

Even though some Fulu are composed of multiple Fulu items...

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