Industrial Age Golarion setting ideas?

[D3stro 2119]

So I was recently thinking about worldbuilding the "Golarion setting" based off of inspiration from Guns and Gears and "universal" rpgs like MnM/GURPS, for a personal project.

Thus, I wanted to write down some ideas for an "Industrial Age period" for Golarion.

In terms of weapons, I really don't see the problem in having at least "World War" (roughly corresponding to irl 1 and 2 as well as late 20th century stuff) level firearms in the setting, in order to bypass the wonkiness of the "early firearms" thing (minor digression, but due to some bad experiences with certain rpgs, overemphasizing equipment and the minutia of the system is a pretty bad design decision), alongside swords and bows and other things-- it's perfectly appropriate for high fantasy "genre-mash" settings.

Vehicles could finally play a greater role with the rise of cars, planes, and trains (the last also doubles as a source of great action scenes). Communications would also obviously improve.

However, I feel the most important aspect is to play up the "fantasy" factor. Things like magitech, or even "alternate physics" super-science like gadgets and devices (with precedent from GnG, and they don't need to be "steampunk" either). New spells and forms of magic as well.

Personally, I think Golarion changes to fit this setting very easily, considering the many precedents already in published material. I mostly just made changes in terms of reducing arbitrariness of certain design decisions as well as cutting down many overly long timescales.

Any and all constructive input on the topic is welcomed.

[aobst128]

Magitech is always my go to for how a high fantasy world would advance. It already has in some parts like in places like Nex. Lots of cool stuff you can find in impossible lands.

For firearms, perhaps the secrets of the starguns have been unravelled and they've been able to reproduce them in a limited fashion. With magic involved, I like the idea of tech completely "skipping" what would be logical steps so they'd go from breach loaded flintlocks straight to laser guns.

[D3stro 2119]

aobst128 wrote:

Magitech is always my go to for how a high fantasy world would advance. It already has in some parts like in places like Nex. Lots of cool stuff you can find in impossible lands.

For firearms, perhaps the secrets of the star guns have been unravelled and they've been able to reproduce them in a limited fashion. With magic involved, I like the idea of tech completely "skipping" what would be logical steps so they'd go from breach loaded flintlocks straight to laser guns.

Yeah, I feel also a theme with a lot of "genre-mash" superhero stuff is how the "super-people" archetype or their equivalent have some kind of "super-tech" in their society.

However, I also feel that there is a lot of room for what I have outlined as well, to represent "transitional" phases and such. Including things like "alternate tech levels" which would cover your suggestion.

Fwiw I've written up another thread on "what does your Golarion look like?" that more deeply covers the changes in design and theme I have done/am planning to implement.

[YuriP]

D3stro 2119 wrote:

So I was recently thinking about worldbuilding the "Golarion setting" based off of inspiration from Guns and Gears and "universal" rpgs like MnM/GURPS, for a personal project.

Thus, I wanted to write down some ideas for an "Industrial Age period" for Golarion.

In terms of weapons, I really don't see the problem in having at least "World War" (roughly corresponding to irl 1 and 2 as well as late 20th century stuff) level firearms in the setting, in order to bypass the wonkiness of the "early firearms" thing (minor digression, but due to some bad experiences with certain rpgs, overemphasizing equipment and the minutia of the system is a pretty bad design decision), alongside swords and bows and other things-- it's perfectly appropriate for high fantasy "genre-mash" settings.

Vehicles could finally play a greater role with the rise of cars, planes, and trains (the last also doubles as a source of great action scenes). Communications would also obviously improve.

However, I feel the most important aspect is to play up the "fantasy" factor. Things like magitech, or even "alternate physics" super-science like gadgets and devices (with precedent from GnG, and they don't need to be "steampunk" either). New spells and forms of magic as well.

Personally, I think Golarion changes to fit this setting very easily, considering the many precedents already in published material. I mostly just made changes in terms of reducing arbitrariness of certain design decisions as well as cutting down many overly long timescales.

Any and all constructive input on the topic is welcomed.

If we think of a scenario for Golarion inspired by the industrial era periods here on Earth, in practice, we have 3 major periods that can be used as a base, as happened here, the 3 can develop at different levels in different parts of the world.

The 3 periods are:

The industrial revolution. When large-scale production techniques and factories are introduced. Here in practice, despite culturally, the large cities are moving towards industrialization, there are still few social effects of this, and in the wilderness, things practically continue the same way they were before, suffering very little influence except for a greater exodus to the cities.
In this period, if we think of technology, there would be little change beyond the production of steam machines, ships, and trains. Most of the short-distance transport would still be done by horses, firearms would still be scarce, but less so than in much of Golarion today, and many things would still have a very medieval feel.

Another interesting thing is that the industrial era occurred after the great navigations, probably in this period, trade between distant continents would be much more common, but still quite dangerous.

The second period would be the Victorian era: Here the fruits of the industrial revolution are already much stronger. The middle class in the cities is a predominant reference, things like banks, hospitals, bureaucracy, and small businesses are already much more common, the industrial revolution in the previous era already allowed the low cost of many things and with that, the lower classes can access more easily and cheaply things like goods and clothes, although there is still a large difference in what is used between the aristocracy, the bourgeoisie, and the workers.
In terms of technology, firearms already become much more common in a Victorian Golarion, they would probably stop being uncommon here, in addition, it is expected that large cities already have rail connections between them, in addition to the navigation of large cities being mainly done using steam ships instead of sails.

With the steam technology greatly improving the speed and safety of transport, it would become easier to exchange cultures and migrate between distant regions, making the already high cultural and racial plurality of the world even greater. Probably the proportion of different ancestries would be even greater with some degree of decrease in human dominance in the large cities, in addition, various races that are now considered uncommon in the game would become common due to the rapid transport and rapid communication.

Meanwhile, more agricultural regions become much more latifundiary due to emigration, but in terms of technology, with the easy arrival of firearms, little would change.
An interesting observation about energy generation technologies. With the existence of magic in the world, countries like Nex and Geb probably developed their industrial power using magic as the driving force, but it would still be more expensive, complex and difficult to manipulate than coal sources. As a result, the world would end up developing technologies in parallel, many based on coal power as it happened here on earth, with the coal sources being larger, more "robust" and polluting but cheaper and much more scalable, while those made with magic as an energy source would be more delicate, much more complex and versatile, less polluting but more expensive and much less scalable and available. You would also see peoples with a stronger primal connection, especially the most magical ones like elves abhorring the use of coal technology in favor of magic.

In this Victorian era is where a more steampunk scenario fits best. Things like steam giants would fit well in this period.

And finally, the era of the first great war: Here the main revolution was the processing and massive use of oil. Coal is quickly being replaced by gasoline and diesel, electricity already developed and now starts to compete with magic as a cheap way to solve various problems, especially instant communication on a large and cheap scale. The cost of manufactured goods fell even further, culturally even lower classes already have one or 2 "class" outfits and the distinction between the bourgeoisie and the workers is now harder to distinguish at first sight. With the advent of electric lighting, the life of predominantly nocturnal creatures became much more difficult, humans are much less afraid of the night and are much more organized. In addition, firearms here improved greatly, firearms previously considered advanced are now martial, firearms with reloads greater than 1 probably already "disappeared", firearms with cartridges and drums now occupy the place of what were previously 1 reload firearms and repeating firearms such as machine guns and rifles are now the new advanced weapons. The use of white weapons and such as swords and bows and medium and heavy armor has been discontinued, but magic technology still allows some skilled individuals to continue using them efficiently.

With the shift to liquid fuels and internal combustion engines, and the development and popularity of cars and planes, cultural mixing has never been greater. Even long-distance travel has become safe, as even large flying beasts cannot match the speed of an airplane. Furthermore, the development of heavy weapons such as tanks and war ships has made life much more difficult for large beasts. Before, the danger was dealing with adventurers supported by spellcasters, but now they must face trains and tanks armed with high-speed reload, high-powered destructive cannons, and in much greater numbers. This has led most beasts to avoid commercial routes and contact with large population centers. However, the world is not a safer place, but with the development of such rapid communication, faster and safer transportation, and more accessible and abundant military power, countries that once estranged and occasionally fought each other now demand support and alliances. Wars have grown to unprecedented scales and the mortality rate has increased significantly, as the newly developed and more deadly weapons have few defenses (only expensive magical armor can withstand bullets). The world is heading towards something never seen before, global wars!

Here, magical technology would branch out. On one hand, the development of electromagnetism would likely influence the development of similar solutions using magic, such as magical circuits, high-complexity systems that mix engineering, magic, and technology. On the other hand, the high complexity of magic compared to the rapid development of petroleum-based technologies would leave techo-magical solutions slow and expensive. Countries and city-states such as Geb, Nex, and magical study centers such as Magaambya would still be important and highly respected, but they would be overshadowed by large industrial empires and big cities like Absalom, which would likely have invested much more in practical technological development. However, nature-based peoples such as elves would refuse to accept most of the polluting solutions used by large human, dwarven, and even goblinoid cities, and would continue to develop and probably possess the most advanced magical technologies. In addition, their longevity would not place them at the same urgency level as short-lived peoples to develop their technologies, even at the cost of polluting the environment and putting lives at risk.

In combat, the use of firearms would be the standard, even "old-style" fighters who use magical melee weapons would probably have a side-arm, I can easily imagine pistols being included in the standard proficiency list for wizards. Conjurers, especially DPS, would compete more with alchemists and heavy armament armorers (such as grenade launchers and bazookas), but many regions would probably prohibit the use of such heavy weapons by civilians, ensuring a market reserve for conjurers who are much more difficult to regulate. Additionally, magical armor is not an option, it is a rule here, advanced firearms can easily penetrate conventional armor and shields, they NEED to be reinforced with magic to remain useful.

In this era, it is possible to implement a dieselpunk scenario, with large machinery, heavily armed trains, exotic airplanes, large tanks and steam giants that run on a mixture of magical technology and internal combustion engines. It's my favorite scenario, but it's the one that would require the most adjustments to work.

[25speedforseaweedleshy]

standard coal industry stuff are too boring

steampunk with clockwork construct or victorian ustalav gothic are a little better

more high magic stuff like automaton flesh forge and flying city would be better

quantium are a great example with the heavy magical industry pollution

[D3stro 2119]

YuriP wrote:

snip

I feel you have done your work in showing the different "periods" of this. That is really neat!

In my opinion, I believe we sort of have to decide the role of magic in this as well. I feel magic would greatly bolster science and the "industrial revolution."

In terms of devices and such, I personally really don't like the overused "steampunk" milieu. As such, I think magic would open up new possibilities.

For example, a progression could be internal combustion engines later turning into advanced magic powered devices.

In terms of the setting, I think the world is large enough to hold all these ideas. I'm really not too worried about guns and armor. Tbh this is where I feel the fantasy side should come in-- maybe there is a new means of armor making, or supernatural skill with certain weapons means they are still used.

25speedforseaweedleshy wrote:

standard coal industry stuff are too boring

steampunk with clockwork construct or victorian ustalav gothic are a little better

more high magic stuff like automaton flesh forge and flying city would be better

quantium are a great example with the heavy magical industry pollution

Yeah I feel playing up the fantasy merging with the setting is a very good idea.

Another idea: interworld travel themes and adventures.

[YuriP]

The problem with magic in a more technological world is in to decide of how scalable it is.

Magic in general fantasy medieval world are a will controlled force that's requires much study and dedication and even doing this it's a bit unstable.

So there's 2 directions to go here.

In the first the magic can dominated by science that can easily use it as main power source taking if from mana crystals (or a similar resource) or taking it from the "air" just like spellcasters do using their will, words, gestures and techniques.

In this scenario the coal mining in large scale don't become viable and extracting energy from magical sources is the rule. Classes like alchemist and inventor will be turned into some kind of spellcaster variant that's don't cast but uses magic in their items. Many of their itens and invention will have to get magical traits in order to reflect this direction of technological evolution and probably could be affect by things like Antimagic Field.

Personally I don't like this idea because it's goes in a different direction of the currently technology development that's Golarion is taking. In the end everything may end to be magical sourced and pure alchemical and mechanical solutions may disappear or be obfuscated.

In the second the magic and technology will compete. The magic still be a complex and difficult source of energy to work. It still have a limitless potential (just remember that's lvl 10 spells exist) but it's hard to work and hard to escalate. In this situation the discovery of non-magical energy sources like coal/oil and latter solar and wind energies will be used as alternative. They have way less potential than magic but can easily produced and used in large escale.

The main advantage of this scenario is that's it's keep the alchemy and mechanic as alternatives to magic. The mains difference is that the things invert, magic will no more be the main source of power specially for large scale yet still very useful for smaller ones (like runes improving weapons effectiveness). This also helps to create an antagonism between the 2 power sources. With the magic being preferred by primal and many divine cultures due it's traditional way to prevent damage to the environment and as closer connection to the divine while large industrial countries would prefer more large scale technology solutions.

I also imagine the Arcane and Occult spellcasters would be a more mid term due their more study like characteristics and try to use the best of both solutions like magical powered technologies or as way to improve conventional powered source technologies like mechanical golems that can take best of vast energy provided by steam/diesel while uses magic to control and give "life" to them (like happens in games as Iron Kingdowns).

[D3stro 2119]

YuriP wrote:

snip

Well then I feel the implicit question/assumption here is actually worldbuilding magic better than what the base setting and system gives us.

I feel Golarion has a lot of precedent for magitech and such. Frankly I already headcanon that Golarion's planet and life, humans, etc. aren't exactly the same as irl but that's a digression.

More on topic I feel all this could work really well in terms of describing a "transitional stage" so to speak of this setting, which will require more real worldbuilding on the GM's part to actually figure specifics out since the base setting does not elaborate on certain things.

Incidentally there's an agnostic rpg book called "Magical Industrial Revolution" that could be interesting and/or useful in some way for this.

Fwiw "alchemy" is basically a subset of magic anyways.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

D3stro 2119 wrote:

Fwiw "alchemy" is basically a subset of magic anyways.

In the sense that it has a wide variety of fantastical effects clearly not possible in our own world, definitely. In the sense that it's actually linked to the forces of magic in any direct way, no, not quite so. It takes no knowledge of spellcasting or magic to perform alchemy, and alchemy continues to function even within an antimagic field.

Of course, one might well headcanon that the fantastical effects possible through alchemy are some bizarre hyper-innate form of metaphysical interaction that doesn't actually use any magical power at all, but I don't know if that's very well supported.

Alchemy is a good example of how even mundane science on Golarion might be called upon to make things a little weird when crafting a 'future' scenario.

[D3stro 2119]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

D3stro 2119 wrote:

Fwiw "alchemy" is basically a subset of magic anyways.

In the sense that it has a wide variety of fantastical effects clearly not possible in our own world, definitely. In the sense that it's actually linked to the forces of magic in any direct way, no, not quite so. It takes no knowledge of spellcasting or magic to perform alchemy, and alchemy continues to function even within an antimagic field.

Of course, one might well headcanon that the fantastical effects possible through alchemy are some bizarre hyper-innate form of metaphysical interaction that doesn't actually use any magical power at all, but I don't know if that's very well supported.

Alchemy is a good example of how even mundane science on Golarion might be called upon to make things a little weird when crafting a 'future' scenario.

Oh yeah that's what I meant.

The thing is (as far as I headcanon) that Golarion is highly magical and so many things we think are "mundane" are influenced by magic somehow.

But of course this links to the topic of needing to actually worldbuild magic.

Incidentally the lack of worldbuilding (or even themes or tone) for Starfinder is why I really dislike that game and its take on things related to this topic.

[CrimsonKnight]

D3stro 2119 wrote:

So I was recently thinking about worldbuilding the "Golarion setting" based off of inspiration from Guns and Gears and "universal" rpgs like MnM/GURPS, for a personal project.

Thus, I wanted to write down some ideas for an "Industrial Age period" for Golarion.

In terms of weapons, I really don't see the problem in having at least "World War" (roughly corresponding to irl 1 and 2 as well as late 20th century stuff) level firearms in the setting, in order to bypass the wonkiness of the "early firearms" thing (minor digression, but due to some bad experiences with certain rpgs, overemphasizing equipment and the minutia of the system is a pretty bad design decision), alongside swords and bows and other things-- it's perfectly appropriate for high fantasy "genre-mash" settings.

a few for every "class" of gun should be good we don't need to go into details of every caliber and the number of grains and there wasn't many types during that time period (like no machine pistols). even during the age of sail the sword was more of a backup weapon. what I thought was a missed opertunity was "outlaw star" style caster guns.

D3stro 2119 wrote:

Vehicles could finally play a greater role with the rise of cars, planes, and trains (the last also doubles as a source of great action scenes). Communications would also obviously improve.

a word of warning even mounted archers have angered many of my players or a GM when my character converted a wagon to a hussite warwagon (mobile greater cover) more advanced mechanized infantry tactics would be available at steam or above tech (characters rolling up with an ironclad for land)

[D3stro 2119]

CrimsonKnight wrote:

D3stro 2119 wrote:

So I was recently thinking about worldbuilding the "Golarion setting" based off of inspiration from Guns and Gears and "universal" rpgs like MnM/GURPS, for a personal project.

Thus, I wanted to write down some ideas for an "Industrial Age period" for Golarion.

In terms of weapons, I really don't see the problem in having at least "World War" (roughly corresponding to irl 1 and 2 as well as late 20th century stuff) level firearms in the setting, in order to bypass the wonkiness of the "early firearms" thing (minor digression, but due to some bad experiences with certain rpgs, overemphasizing equipment and the minutia of the system is a pretty bad design decision), alongside swords and bows and other things-- it's perfectly appropriate for high fantasy "genre-mash" settings.

a few for every "class" of gun should be good we don't need to go into details of every caliber and the number of grains and there wasn't many types during that time period (like no machine pistols). even during the age of sail the sword was more of a backup weapon. what I thought was a missed opertunity was "outlaw star" style caster guns.

D3stro 2119 wrote:

Vehicles could finally play a greater role with the rise of cars, planes, and trains (the last also doubles as a source of great action scenes). Communications would also obviously improve.

a word of warning even mounted archers have angered many of my players or a GM when my character converted a wagon to a hussite warwagon (mobile greater cover) more advanced mechanized infantry tactics would be available at steam or above tech (characters rolling up with an ironclad for land)

Yeah I definitely DON'T want to deal with "gun nuttery" and other meaningless minutia.

The second problem is more the problems of the base system itself than anything else tbh.