I've pretty much finished the Barbarian and Ranger of my little group. Now I'm moving on to the next character. The Ranger is a ranged attacker, but I'd like to have one more.
The remaining classes in my initial selection that haven't been made yet are Skald, Witch, Oracle, Rogue, Sorcerer, Shaman, and either Hunter or Druid.
While Hunters do get Precise Shot at level 2, the teamwork feats really are best for melee. I was thinking of having the Rogue be a two-weapon fighter, being able to flank with the barbarian, the two pets, and at least one more front-liner.
So which class left would be the best choice for another ranged attacker? A throwing build would be just as good as a bow build. I don't mind suggestions for another class that's not on the list, but I would prefer it still fit the theme of wild or uncivilized. So no Paladins or Bards, please. Thank you.
Druid, with nature fang archetype and eagle domain. You can get bows from your race or just rely on your many ranged attack spells.
You could use a skald to make an ok archer. Spell Warrior is appropriate for that.
If short range counts, a charisma-based spell warrior with Desna's shooting star divine fighting style can do pretty well. Make sure to take lesser spirit totem at level 3 to give everyone in your party a bonus attack based off your charisma too.
if all you care about is damage, then a pure fighter is the best there is. around 11th level you should be clearing 100+damage per round of combat.
if you want throwing, the Swashbuckler (flying blade) is pretty dang awesome.
if all you care about is damage, then a pure fighter is the best there is. around 11th level you should be clearing 100+damage per round of combat.
if you want throwing, the Swashbuckler (flying blade) is pretty dang awesome.
She has a limited list of classes she prefers to draw from.
Skald, Witch, Oracle, Rogue, Sorcerer, Shaman, and either Hunter or Druid.
And she prefers Hunters for melee, which I don't think is completely "fair", but I don't care to argue it.
With the limited number of choices, I think Skald and Druid can be the best archers.
I suggest taking a look at the Forester Hunter, and consider defensive and utility teamwork feats like stealth synergy, shake it off and swarmscatter.
The witch and the sorcerer are probably going to be mostly ranged anyways. Spells that have a range of greater than touch or personal are ranged attacks. All the other classes you have left can usually function on the front line. The witch and the sorcerer are kind of screwed if they end up going toe to toe with most creatures.
It's mostly that there aren't that many teamwork feats good for ranged, compared to melee. I'll take a look at that archetype though.
I'm definitely not putting the witch or sorcerer anywhere near the front line. The Squishies go in the back. I wanted to make a blasting witch but it hasn't been cooperating. I'll probably just have the sorcerer be the blaster.
The starknife build might be fun. It'll be my first throwing build. Do I have to take DFT twice to get the advanced benefit?
The forester hunter can also share teamwork feats with allies, so using caster aiding feats to assist the spell flingers in the back ranks with them is an option.
The starknife build might be fun. It'll be my first throwing build. Do I have to take DFT twice to get the advanced benefit?
Looks like you only take the feat once, but I’m not sure the advanced benefit is worth the prerequisite.
Ranged combat does not have to be just damage. The witch hold person is just as much a ranged combatant as the archer. Any spell caster can be considered a ranged combatant if they have offensive spells. I wrote up an oracle of heaven with the blackened curse that was actually a very effective blaster.
The starknife build might be fun. It'll be my first throwing build. Do I have to take DFT twice to get the advanced benefit?Looks like you only take the feat once, but I’m not sure the advanced benefit is worth the prerequisite.
I should elaborate. If you focus hard on charisma, your dexterity likely won’t be very high. I prefer to play this with quick draw and a blink back belt. You can just full attack with the same star knife. I’d also pair this with a light shield, since your AC won’t be getting the boost from high dexterity.
Your damage will still be fairly competitive with the extra attacks from spirit totem
The starknife build might be fun. It'll be my first throwing build. Do I have to take DFT twice to get the advanced benefit?Looks like you only take the feat once, but I’m not sure the advanced benefit is worth the prerequisite.I should elaborate. If you focus hard on charisma, your dexterity likely won’t be very high. I prefer to play this with quick draw and a blink back belt. You can just full attack with the same star knife. I’d also pair this with a light shield, since your AC won’t be getting the boost from high dexterity.
Your damage will still be fairly competitive with the extra attacks from spirit totem
Look at Sharding weapons as well. Most combats in the APs happen indoors so the range limit is not an issue, plus it frees up the belt slot.
Understood. And going with a starknife also means I don't have to worry about needing Empty Quiver or moving away. Someone runs up to me and I can't take a five foot step, I can just stab them.
There's an Oracle Revelation from the Lunar Mystery that switches AC and Reflex to Cha. That would be useful.
Of course, no matter what kind of ranged build I use, I still need Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot. So without any bonus feats, I'm going to have to wait until level 5 to get Desna's Shooting Star. That's a little annoying but not a huge deal. I'll just be slightly less accurate for a little bit. And whether going Skald or Oracle, I'm going to be able to shoot some spells off.
I think it’s worth pointing out that the starknife is a martial weapon so only the skald and hunter are proficient with it out of your choices without burning a feat/talent/mystery etc.
True. I either go with Skald or use the Heirloom Weapon trait for the Oracle. On the one hand, it'll likely be easier to build the Skald as a front liner with a different weapon than it would the Oracle. On the other, going Skald with the starknife opens up Oracle for other mysteries that have multiple good revelations.
What about a Slayer with the Sniper and Stygian Slayer Archetypes?
You could get Slayer's Feint, Ranged Feint, and Moonlight Stalker Feint, and then once you're level 7, you should be able to cast Darkness or Obscuring Mist to grant yourself concealment, and with Moonlight Stalker Feint you can Feint as a Swift Action, and with Slayer's Feint, you can use Acrobatics instead of Bluff to Feint.
With the Sniper Archetype, your SnA range is up to your first range increment (100ft with Longbow) rather than just 30ft.
Now just make sure you can get Darkvision from race or items and/or Fogcutting Lenses, and you can Feint as a Swift and get a full attack that all deals SnA vs. any target within 100ft ;)
Optimally, the skald build works best when played as a melee that can range pretty well. If you want to stick to range as much as possible, you might have more fun with the oracle build.
Edit Note: Really, I think any starknife build will be slow to be optimal in range. They are rather expensive for something you might want to throw at least once per round. And they aren't exactly light, when you can afford to carry several. Once you can add returning or get a blinkback belt, it can be great, but at low levels, you are more of a melee than a ranged character.
Also true, though I think that's pretty much the same for any throwing build. Either gotta have extras or a magic item.
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True. I either go with Skald or use the Heirloom Weapon trait for the Oracle. On the one hand, it'll likely be easier to build the Skald as a front liner with a different weapon than it would the Oracle. On the other, going Skald with the starknife opens up Oracle for other mysteries that have multiple good revelations.
I was talking about vatisian tattoo aka tattooed mystic which you could grab with the adopted trait if not human
Suli if going with Skald, Ifrit if going with Oracle.
Ok. So of the 3 mysteries that an oracle of Desna can take, the Lunar mystery seems to be the best fitting for this. Prophetic Armor would help with AC, switching it over to Cha instead of Dex. Primal Companion gives a fully leveled animal companion, which can be another front-liner. And Moonbeam gives a ranged attack that can be useful at early levels.
I'm thinking of taking the animal companion one first, since it can stay between the oracle and anything that wants to take it out. I'm torn between the armor one and the attack one. Both are useful.
Ok. How does this look?
No EITR: 1 DFT, 3 PBS, 5 Precise Shot, 7 Rapid Shot, 9 Deadly Aim, 11 Clustered Shots, 13 Manyshot.
With EITR: 1 DFT, 3 Precise Shot, 5 Rapid Shot, 7 empty slot due to BAB, 9 Clustered Shots, 11 Manyshot. I could probably fill in the slot with Extra Revelations or Evolved Companion or something.
Forgot about Quick Draw. It doesn't matter too much for a melee build since you can draw it while moving. But a throwing build will be needed more. For the non-EITR build, I guess I'll drop Deadly Aim for it.
I've pretty much finished the Barbarian and Ranger of my little group. Now I'm moving on to the next character. The Ranger is a ranged attacker, but I'd like to have one more.
The remaining classes in my initial selection that haven't been made yet are Skald, Witch, Oracle, Rogue, Sorcerer, Shaman, and either Hunter or Druid.
While Hunters do get Precise Shot at level 2, the teamwork feats really are best for melee. I was thinking of having the Rogue be a two-weapon fighter, being able to flank with the barbarian, the two pets, and at least one more front-liner.
So which class left would be the best choice for another ranged attacker? A throwing build would be just as good as a bow build. I don't mind suggestions for another class that's not on the list, but I would prefer it still fit the theme of wild or uncivilized. So no Paladins or Bards, please. Thank you.
A bit late to the conversation.
There are many options for a ranged attacker; it depends on what capabilities you want to develop.
Skald usually pairs well with a barbarian and the spell warrior archetype's Enhance Weapons instead of Inspired Rage enhances the party's weapons on the fly, which allows more combat versatility.
Witch will probably be more difficult to pull off as a ranged combatant without multiclassing. They are also limited as a blaster.
From a pure mechanics standpoint, an elf or half-elf Wood mystery oracle 12/deadeye devotee (divine archetype of arcane archer) 8, leveraging the elf FCB for oracle on the Wood Bond revelation and the Fate's Favored trait to boost the luck bonus from divine favor or divine power, can probably be even more effective as an archer than the ranger.
Rogue, unfortunately, is really difficult to consistently gain ranged sneak attacks with more than once or twice per combat; and is not really bringing anything that another class can't as a ranged attacker without sneak attacks. TWF rogues often require buffing and system mastery to meet expectations. Also, both ranged attacks and TWF need a bunch of feats; trying to be good at both (other than with a fighter) will likely be frustrating.
Sorcerer can work as a blaster; the Orc bloodline is usually a good choice for a blaster sorcerer. You could also try to combine blasting and archery with multiclassing and the arcane archer prestige class.
Shaman can be OK at ranged attacks when not casting, but doesn't have divine favor on their spell list.
Hunter and druid usually work better as melee than as ranged attackers. They can be OK blaster/melee switch-hitters.
Eldritch archer magus is a good ranged attacker; it can also be taken with the hexcrafter archetype.
Myrmidarch magus works well as a ranged/melee switch-hitter using a thrown weapon. An example using a starknife.
Apparently Quick Draw isn't covered by EITR. So I'm going to have to put it in no matter what. Guess it'll be like this:
1: Divine Fighting Technique
3: Point-Blank Shot
5: Precise Shot
7: Quick Draw
9: Rapid Shot
Two-Weapon Fighting was suggested to me. I should be able to get to 15 dex fairly easily with a start of 13 and an ioun stone.
Apparently Quick Draw isn't covered by EITR. So I'm going to have to put it in no matter what. Guess it'll be like this:
1: Divine Fighting Technique
3: Point-Blank Shot
5: Precise Shot
7: Quick Draw
9: Rapid ShotTwo-Weapon Fighting was suggested to me. I should be able to get to 15 dex fairly easily with a start of 13 and an ioun stone.
again, with a sharding weapon, you can skip quick draw.
Why is everything so expensive?
Ok. I'm going to leave Quick Draw where it is for now. If I get a Sharding weapon, I can drop or retrain it to something else.
I'm wondering if I should go with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. A sharding weapon would remove the need for a blink-back belt so I could get a stat belt instead. It gives another attack, but it's another penalty too. I do have until level 15 to decide since that's the first empty slot. (Not having ANY bonus feats is hard.)
1: Divine Fighting Technique
3: Point-Blank Shot
5: Precise Shot
7: Quick Draw
9: Rapid Shot
11: Two-Weapon Fighting
13: Clustered Shots
What are you using for stats?
Your feats look ok to me. Also keep in mind that you don't have to rely on the starknife for ranged early fights. You can carry a simpler option like a longbow at first, and then switch to pure starknife, when you can obtain an option like sharding.
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again, with a sharding weapon, you can skip quick draw.Apparently Quick Draw isn't covered by EITR. So I'm going to have to put it in no matter what. Guess it'll be like this:
1: Divine Fighting Technique
3: Point-Blank Shot
5: Precise Shot
7: Quick Draw
9: Rapid ShotTwo-Weapon Fighting was suggested to me. I should be able to get to 15 dex fairly easily with a start of 13 and an ioun stone.
and again its a +2 enhancement and only has a range increment of 10 ft
what level are you going to have access to a +3 weapon?
again, with a sharding weapon, you can skip quick draw.Apparently Quick Draw isn't covered by EITR. So I'm going to have to put it in no matter what. Guess it'll be like this:
1: Divine Fighting Technique
3: Point-Blank Shot
5: Precise Shot
7: Quick Draw
9: Rapid ShotTwo-Weapon Fighting was suggested to me. I should be able to get to 15 dex fairly easily with a start of 13 and an ioun stone.
and again its a +2 enhancement and only has a range increment of 10 ft
what level are you going to have access to a +3 weapon?
oh, at a lower level than 2 +2 weapons and a blinkback belt...
as for the 10' range increment - most AP's have significant parts of their combat at less than 30'
Well, Ifrits have a +2 Dex and Cha with a -2 to Wis.
With a 20 buy I can get 10 Str, 13 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 13 Wis, and 16 Cha.
Or 9 Str, 13 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 14 Wis, 16 Cha.
Or 8 Str, 13 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 13 Wis, and 17 Cha.
Or 7 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 14 Wis, and 16 Cha.
I might go with the 9 Str one. I don't really like dropping Str since it can make things hard to carry before getting a muleback cords. But it would let me even out Wis and only have 2 odd numbers in the stats.
Wasn't this for an Oracle? You're spending way too much PB on the wisdom score for a race with a Wis penalty. I'd go with the following, personally. Maybe take that Charm/Compulsion trait if you can't squeeze in Steadfast.
9 STR, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 10 Wis, 18 Cha
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Honestly, the Oracle might just be a bit too feat starved for a throwing build. Maybe dip into Mysterious Stranger and try a firearm build instead?
In any other case, I would. But these guys grew up apart from society. So no fireams.
I guess I could drop Wis a bit. Oracles do have a decent Will save and they have spells to buff it even more if I need to.
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again, with a sharding weapon, you can skip quick draw.Apparently Quick Draw isn't covered by EITR. So I'm going to have to put it in no matter what. Guess it'll be like this:
1: Divine Fighting Technique
3: Point-Blank Shot
5: Precise Shot
7: Quick Draw
9: Rapid ShotTwo-Weapon Fighting was suggested to me. I should be able to get to 15 dex fairly easily with a start of 13 and an ioun stone.
and again its a +2 enhancement and only has a range increment of 10 ft
what level are you going to have access to a +3 weapon?
oh, at a lower level than 2 +2 weapons and a blinkback belt...
as for the 10' range increment - most AP's have significant parts of their combat at less than 30'
but you only need 1 +2 weapon with a blink back belt.
since it resolves immediately after the attack, you could even 2 weapon fight with a single thrown weapon
What type of spells are you planning for the Oracle? It seems to me that all your resources are going into focusing on using a weapon. Oracles are full 9th level casters that can get some decent offensive spells with their mystery and or cures. Spending all your resources on using a weapon is going to make your spells less effective. With the current build this character is probably not going to be an effective offensive caster and will have trouble casting in combat.
You are also playing a race with a DEX bonus but making DEX to be irrelevant. Furthermore, you are still investing in DEX which wasting a lot of points that are not doing anything for you. You could go with an alternative heritage, but as an oracle you want to keep the bonus to CHA. That leaves a Sunsoul as your logical choice. This gives you a boost to STR and CHA, but STR does not really help the build either.
The lunar mystery gives you some decent revelations but beyond Primal Companion and Prophetic Armor there is not anything that is really good. Moonbeam is only going to be useful at low level, but you are going to want to get Primal Companion and Prophetic Armor first. So, by the time you pick it at 7th level it is useless. Form of the beast could be useful, but it is not wild shape so you are going to have trouble casting while in animal form and will not be able to use your star knife. Gift of Claw and Horn does nothing for the build. The rest of the revelations are ok, but don’t really seem all that helpful. The spells the lunar mystery grants are in all honesty not helpful for this build.
Even using the starknife is not that effective. Sure, you will eventually get CHA to hit and damage, but you have no other damage boosts. Without a decent static damage boost you are not going to be doing any real damage. Anything with DR you cannot overcome is going to ignore most of your damage. Getting a lot of attacks that fail to do damage is pointless. Also, the starknife is a marital weapon so you don’t have proficiency with it. The trait Heirloom weapon only gives you proficiency with the specific masterwork weapon you start with. That means you will probably need to spend the feat to get it become proficient in it.
My suggestion for an Oracle of Desna would be to go for an Oracle of the Heavens with the Blackend curse and focus on spells. Start out with the Coat of Many Starts at 1st level, pick up Awesome Display at 3rd, for 7th take Spray of shooting starts, and then pick up Dweller in Darkness or Interstellar Void as your next two revelations. For stats use STR 8, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 18. Pick up some decent combat spells to fill in the gaps that your mystery and curse do not provide and focus on spell casting. Not only will you be able to do damage, but you can also mess with the screw with the minds of your opponents. Color Spray and your other pattern spells will remain relevant for most of the game.
Well, the only other Cha users in the group are the sorcerer and the skald. I'm definitely not making the sorcerer into a martial build, it's far too squishy.
I suppose I could have the skald be a thrower. I just really want another ranged build that's not a bow or gun user.
In any case, someone suggested Vital Strike in place of TWF. It would remove the need for dex, Rapid Shot, and the TWF line. And I'd only need one weapon that could either be sharding or returning. IS that any good for a throwing build?
Why does a ranged build have to use weapons at all? Attacking with spells that have a range is just as much as a ranged build as a weapon user.
All characters should be able to attack at range even if that is not their primary method. Any character with martial weapon proficiency can carry a bow. The Barbarian, Skald, and Hunter can all use long bows and other martial weapons. The rogue can use short bows and hand crossbows. Even the druid and shaman can use spears. Even the oracle can use simple ranged weapons without spending a single feat.
If your building a starknife build… the Startoss Style feat chain is extremely potent. I’ve been playing a Starknife wielding warpriest in a campaign recently and it can make a world of a difference when you find yourself too far to reliably throw and have to spend a move action to get in closer, or when you find yourself using move actions to maintain a safe distance every round. The feat chain effectively gives you a ranged cleave ability… it also works with vital strike.
I will look at Startoss.
Startoss looks pretty decent. I get a bit of extra damage and some extra attacks if I have to move.
Even if you don’t have to move, its some nice AoE damage since you suffer no attack penalty on the extra attacks. You just have to successfully hit different targets.
Ok. I do need Weapon Focus for Startoss. I think I'll still need Quick Draw for the extra attacks using Startoss Comet. And for any multiple attacks on a single opponent. (I can always retrain Quick Draw later or just not take it if I get a sharding weapon before then.)
So that would be:
1: DFT
3: PBS
5: Precise Shot
7: Weapon Focus
9: Startoss Style
11: Quick Draw
13: Rapid Shot
15: Startoss Comet
17: Startoss Shower
19: Manyshot
No room for anything else. I'm almost wanting to dip a couple levels of fighter just to get some feats faster.
I was reminded that Manyshot doesn't work with throwing. And that the knife is bouncing from target to target during Startoss Comet. So I might not need Quick Draw after all.
That person also suggested taking a level of Warpriest. It's a wis-based class, but it gives Weapon Focus as a bonus. And apparently I can give up a blessing to get DFT as a bonus as well. Not to mention it'll bump my starknife from 1d4 to 1d6. So I'm really considering it.
Warpriest is REALLY good for a starknife build… the only downside to it is with DFT you use Charisma for attack & damage while warpriest is very Wisdom based… but since you should be using spells more for buffing anyways, you only need a total of 16 Wis by level 16… You can even take the Arsenal Chaplain archetype and get some Weapon Training goodness… not to mention your BAB is treated as your class level for any bonus feats you get in addition to counting as fighter levels, this can be leveraged to get you some feats earlier than normal for a 3/4 BAB class. There is also the Ricochet Toss feat which you’d easily qualify for that will remove the need for a blink-back belt or returning weapon
If you were to go with a Starknife Skald though, there are some Rage Powers that can help with feats… Quick Draw & Rapid Shot can be obtained through the Furious Draw and Furious Barrage rage powers.
I was thinking of only dipping the class, not going all in.
A dip is still really good for kicking the whole build off, since as you already know you can get the DFT and Weapon Focus at level 1. If you don’t take an archetype then it is worth noting that as a follower of Desna the Liberation Blessing is an amazing choice since Freedom of Movement as a swift action is a godsend…