Here, under "Injury". Piercing or Splashing is specified; Bludgeoning is not.
A toxicologist could multiclass into inventor to add versatile slashing or piercing to a simple or martial weapon.
Of course, that would invalidate the throwers bandoliers since you only have the one weapon.
aobst128 wrote: A toxicologist could multiclass into inventor to add versatile slashing or piercing to a simple or martial weapon. too much investment for too little gains imo.
you gain a single die increase and range from 40 to 60, but imo 40 is fine.
so waiting till then and grabbing a new archetype and a level 8 feat just for that isn't really worth it.
especially when slinger archetype gives you so much more, especially the ranged feint being hige, since toxicologist need to have their targets flat footed for that sweet -2 to fort saves for their enemies.
shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: A toxicologist could multiclass into inventor to add versatile slashing or piercing to a simple or martial weapon. too much investment for too little gains imo.
you gain a single die increase and range from 40 to 60, but imo 40 is fine.
so waiting till then and grabbing a new archetype and a level 8 feat just for that isn't really worth it.
especially when slinger archetype gives you so much more, especially the ranged feint being hige, since toxicologist need to have their targets flat footed for that sweet -2 to fort saves for their enemies. If going that route to get targets flatfooted at range, I'd rather go with archer and parting shot. As for thrown weapons, chakri is still your best bet if you can get proficiency with it anyways. I'm hoping TV will have new options. I'm tired of humans unconventional weaponry
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breithauptclan wrote: Method of Exposure.
You would at least need the weapon to have Versatile P or S.
Edit: Ninja'd.
Nah, you brought a link to the table. Ninja speed is nothing when the other person is packing citations.
Changing the matter a bit.
Do you think Paizo will mention if this object is selectable as a Thaumaturge Weapon Implement specifically? It is going to be weird to play a throwing weapon Thaumaturge in general, I think. At least one with weapon implement.
If you can't select this as your weapon implement, you will need another weapon, with its own runes. Blazons are not going to work with the bandolier, so you will need to expend double the cost in weapon runes, making it a bit unviable oitside of ABP games.
If you can select it as your implement, you would need to hold it for most of the classes stuff, which I don't know how it would work.
Asking because I saw someone posting in Advice about a somewhat similar build and I don't know if it will be usable at all without going back to the returning rune.
roquepo wrote: Changing the matter a bit.
Do you think Paizo will mention if this object is selectable as a Thaumaturge Weapon Implement specifically? It is going to be weird to play a throwing weapon Thaumaturge in general, I think. At least one with weapon implement.
If you can't select this as your weapon implement, you will need another weapon, with its own runes. Blazons are not going to work with the bandolier, so you will need to expend double the cost in weapon runes, making it a bit unviable oitside of ABP games.
If you can select it as your implement, you would need to hold it for most of the classes stuff, which I don't know how it would work.
Asking because I saw someone posting in Advice about a somewhat similar build and I don't know if it will be usable at all without going back to the returning rune.
I'd wager probably not. Same with inventor's weapon innovation. Thaumaturge still functions pretty well with thrown weapons regardless though. Especially now if you can get your hands on a boomerang.
You could also just not take the weapon implement... A shuriken thaum with the tome and bell would be pretty good. Means you have an open hand for consumables too, if that's of interest.
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I was asking because I thought it would be pretty fitting for the class if your signature weapon were just another collection of random items. I don't think they are going to add a special sidebar to make them interact either.
Was thinking of the random bull****, go meme, basically.
aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: A toxicologist could multiclass into inventor to add versatile slashing or piercing to a simple or martial weapon. too much investment for too little gains imo.
you gain a single die increase and range from 40 to 60, but imo 40 is fine.
so waiting till then and grabbing a new archetype and a level 8 feat just for that isn't really worth it.
especially when slinger archetype gives you so much more, especially the ranged feint being hige, since toxicologist need to have their targets flat footed for that sweet -2 to fort saves for their enemies. If going that route to get targets flatfooted at range, I'd rather go with archer and parting shot. As for thrown weapons, chakri is still your best bet if you can get proficiency with it anyways. I'm hoping TV will have new options. I'm tired of humans unconventional weaponry Archer loses the poisons on a miss, thrown doesn't.
shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: A toxicologist could multiclass into inventor to add versatile slashing or piercing to a simple or martial weapon. too much investment for too little gains imo.
you gain a single die increase and range from 40 to 60, but imo 40 is fine.
so waiting till then and grabbing a new archetype and a level 8 feat just for that isn't really worth it.
especially when slinger archetype gives you so much more, especially the ranged feint being hige, since toxicologist need to have their targets flat footed for that sweet -2 to fort saves for their enemies. If going that route to get targets flatfooted at range, I'd rather go with archer and parting shot. As for thrown weapons, chakri is still your best bet if you can get proficiency with it anyways. I'm hoping TV will have new options. I'm tired of humans unconventional weaponry Archer loses the poisons on a miss, thrown doesn't. Right but the hassle for going gunslinger with the charisma needed for pistol twirl is a little gratuitous. You could always use parting shot with thrown weapons though I suppose.
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aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: A toxicologist could multiclass into inventor to add versatile slashing or piercing to a simple or martial weapon. too much investment for too little gains imo.
you gain a single die increase and range from 40 to 60, but imo 40 is fine.
so waiting till then and grabbing a new archetype and a level 8 feat just for that isn't really worth it.
especially when slinger archetype gives you so much more, especially the ranged feint being hige, since toxicologist need to have their targets flat footed for that sweet -2 to fort saves for their enemies. If going that route to get targets flatfooted at range, I'd rather go with archer and parting shot. As for thrown weapons, chakri is still your best bet if you can get proficiency with it anyways. I'm hoping TV will have new options. I'm tired of humans unconventional weaponry Archer loses the poisons on a miss, thrown doesn't. Right but the hassle for going gunslinger with the charisma needed for pistol twirl is a little gratuitous. You could always use parting shot with thrown weapons though I suppose. You're not only getting Pistol Twirl though.
You are also getting quick draw which is a mandatory Archetype pick for thrown weapons and also you can get Fake out which is amazing for a class without any reactions.
shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: A toxicologist could multiclass into inventor to add versatile slashing or piercing to a simple or martial weapon. too much investment for too little gains imo.
you gain a single die increase and range from 40 to 60, but imo 40 is fine.
so waiting till then and grabbing a new archetype and a level 8 feat just for that isn't really worth it.
especially when slinger archetype gives you so much more, especially the ranged feint being hige, since toxicologist need to have their targets flat footed for that sweet -2 to fort saves for their enemies. If going that route to get targets flatfooted at range, I'd rather go with archer and parting shot. As for thrown weapons, chakri is still your best bet if you can get proficiency with it anyways. I'm hoping TV will have new options. I'm tired of humans unconventional weaponry Archer loses the poisons on a miss, thrown doesn't. Right but the hassle for going gunslinger with the charisma needed for pistol twirl is a little gratuitous. You could always use parting shot with thrown weapons though I suppose. You're not only getting Pistol Twirl though.
You are also getting quick draw which is a mandatory Archetype pick for thrown weapons and also you can get Fake out which is amazing for a class without any reactions. I think I'd still rather go for ranger for far shot along with quickdraw. Or duelist for some melee support. Flanking is still a fine means of using pinpoint poisoner. Fake out is decent though. I'd probably go gunslinger if I was planning on a gun focused alchemist. There's enough alchemical ammunition to make it worthwhile now.
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aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: A toxicologist could multiclass into inventor to add versatile slashing or piercing to a simple or martial weapon. too much investment for too little gains imo.
you gain a single die increase and range from 40 to 60, but imo 40 is fine.
so waiting till then and grabbing a new archetype and a level 8 feat just for that isn't really worth it.
especially when slinger archetype gives you so much more, especially the ranged feint being hige, since toxicologist need to have their targets flat footed for that sweet -2 to fort saves for their enemies. If going that route to get targets flatfooted at range, I'd rather go with archer and parting shot. As for thrown weapons, chakri is still your best bet if you can get proficiency with it anyways. I'm hoping TV will have new options. I'm tired of humans unconventional weaponry Archer loses the poisons on a miss, thrown doesn't. Right but the hassle for going gunslinger with the charisma needed for pistol twirl is a little gratuitous. You could always use parting shot with thrown weapons though I suppose. You're not only getting Pistol Twirl though.
You are also getting quick draw which is a mandatory Archetype pick for thrown weapons and also you can get Fake out which is amazing for a class without any reactions. I think I'd still rather go for ranger for far shot along with quickdraw. Or duelist for some melee support. Flanking is still a fine means of using pinpoint poisoner. Fake out is decent though. I'd probably go gunslinger if I was planning on a gun focused alchemist. There's enough alchemical ammunition to make it worthwhile now. Flanking doesn't work for ranged attacks, even if you are in a flanking position.
(it's been errata in the 3rd printing to only work for melee hits)
shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: A toxicologist could multiclass into inventor to add versatile slashing or piercing to a simple or martial weapon. too much investment for too little gains imo.
you gain a single die increase and range from 40 to 60, but imo 40 is fine.
so waiting till then and grabbing a new archetype and a level 8 feat just for that isn't really worth it.
especially when slinger archetype gives you so much more, especially the ranged feint being hige, since toxicologist need to have their targets flat footed for that sweet -2 to fort saves for their enemies. If going that route to get targets flatfooted at range, I'd rather go with archer and parting shot. As for thrown weapons, chakri is still your best bet if you can get proficiency with it anyways. I'm hoping TV will have new options. I'm tired of humans unconventional weaponry Archer loses the poisons on a miss, thrown doesn't. Right but the hassle for going gunslinger with the charisma needed for pistol twirl is a little gratuitous. You could always use parting shot with thrown weapons though I suppose. You're not only getting Pistol Twirl though.
You are also getting quick draw which is a mandatory Archetype pick for thrown weapons and also you can get Fake out which is amazing for a class without any reactions. I think I'd still rather go for ranger for far shot along with quickdraw. Or duelist for some melee support. Flanking is still a fine means of using pinpoint poisoner. Fake out is decent though. I'd probably go gunslinger if I was planning on a gun focused alchemist. There's enough alchemical ammunition to make it worthwhile now. Flanking doesn't work for ranged attacks, even if you are in a flanking position.
(it's been errata in the 3rd printing to only work for melee hits) You can quickdraw melee attacks just as well as ranged ones. In this case, you'd utilize doubling rings instead of the bandoliers. Has the addition benefit of using the new injection mod too. Double tap your poisons.
Actually, throwers bandoliers work just fine with melee attacks too. That's more convenient. Have a collection of throwing knives with a few with injection mods for melee attacks.
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aobst128 wrote: Actually, throwers bandoliers work just fine with melee attacks too. That's more convenient. Have a collection of throwing knives with a few with injection mods for melee attacks. Why even bother with a ranged build if in the end you must make all your poison attacks from melee?
I really see no issue with simply feinting.
40 range is plenty enough to render ranger unnecessary either way.
So atm I really see no reason why not to utilise everything you can at the max, range, versatility, utility, reactions, and that's with the slinger.
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Don't get me wrong, I can see a melee injection build working. But that would be completely different.
I'd propably go with strength based reach weapon for that.
shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: Actually, throwers bandoliers work just fine with melee attacks too. That's more convenient. Have a collection of throwing knives with a few with injection mods for melee attacks. Why even bother with a ranged build if in the end you must make all your poison attacks from melee?
I really see no issue with simply feinting.
40 range is plenty enough to render ranger unnecessary either way.
So atm I really see no reason why not to utilise everything you can at the max, range, versatility, utility, reactions, and that's with the slinger. Because charisma is difficult to afford for a class that needs to max intelligence first. Pistol twirl is unreliable. The idea with melee is to be versatile. You can make both thrown and melee strikes with the bandoliers.
Plus, needing to carry a gun around is unfortunate for alchemist since free hands are quite valuable for them.
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aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: Actually, throwers bandoliers work just fine with melee attacks too. That's more convenient. Have a collection of throwing knives with a few with injection mods for melee attacks. Why even bother with a ranged build if in the end you must make all your poison attacks from melee?
I really see no issue with simply feinting.
40 range is plenty enough to render ranger unnecessary either way.
So atm I really see no reason why not to utilise everything you can at the max, range, versatility, utility, reactions, and that's with the slinger. Because charisma is difficult to afford for a class that needs to max intelligence first. Pistol twirl is unreliable. The idea with melee is to be versatile. You can make both thrown and melee strikes with the bandoliers. The problem is that in the search for said versatility, you completely destroyed the very core of the build itself.
You have a ranged poison build that needs to be in melee range in order to properly utilise the poisons.
You can make a melee build if that's the case then, go for strength and a reach weapon, amazing now with the new poison rune+injector.
The only reason to go ranged is to not go melee. The reason to go thrown vs arrows is to not waste poisons and have a free hand when needed. Slinger accommodates every single hole in the build.
You don't need to massively invest in charisma to make it work. It's not like feint only works with max charisma. You need to start feinting by 8, so you can start at 10-12 cha and be like 2 points behind than a maxed modifier.
aobst128 wrote: Plus, needing to carry a gun around is unfortunate for alchemist since free hands are quite valuable for them. You have a free hand.
That's the whole point of thrown, non returning, weapons.
You can even have 2 if you're using the gauntlet xbow
shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: Actually, throwers bandoliers work just fine with melee attacks too. That's more convenient. Have a collection of throwing knives with a few with injection mods for melee attacks. Why even bother with a ranged build if in the end you must make all your poison attacks from melee?
I really see no issue with simply feinting.
40 range is plenty enough to render ranger unnecessary either way.
So atm I really see no reason why not to utilise everything you can at the max, range, versatility, utility, reactions, and that's with the slinger. Because charisma is difficult to afford for a class that needs to max intelligence first. Pistol twirl is unreliable. The idea with melee is to be versatile. You can make both thrown and melee strikes with the bandoliers. The problem is that in the search for said versatility, you completely destroyed the very core of the build itself.
You have a ranged poison build that needs to be in melee range in order to properly utilise the poisons.
You can make a melee build if that's the case then, go for strength and a reach weapon, amazing now with the new poison rune+injector.
The only reason to go ranged is to not go melee. The reason to go thrown vs arrows is to not waste poisons and have a free hand when needed. Slinger accommodates every single hole in the build.
You don't need to massively invest in charisma to make it work. It's not like feint only works with max charisma.
aobst128 wrote: Plus, needing to carry a gun around is unfortunate for alchemist since free hands are quite valuable for them. You have a free hand.
That's the whole point of thrown, non returning, weapons.
You could have another free hand at the start though. It's not really defeating the purpose of the build. Your proposed method of gaining flatfooted is just not reliable without hefty charisma investment. Switch hitting or just using bottled lightning is a more reasonable tactic. Plus, it's not like you're never catching things flatfooted by other means. You've got teammates and pinpoint poisoner is still good even in a vacuum.
Strength hobgoblin toxicologist with a breaching pike is tempting though.
aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: Actually, throwers bandoliers work just fine with melee attacks too. That's more convenient. Have a collection of throwing knives with a few with injection mods for melee attacks. Why even bother with a ranged build if in the end you must make all your poison attacks from melee?
I really see no issue with simply feinting.
40 range is plenty enough to render ranger unnecessary either way.
So atm I really see no reason why not to utilise everything you can at the max, range, versatility, utility, reactions, and that's with the slinger. Because charisma is difficult to afford for a class that needs to max intelligence first. Pistol twirl is unreliable. The idea with melee is to be versatile. You can make both thrown and melee strikes with the bandoliers. The problem is that in the search for said versatility, you completely destroyed the very core of the build itself.
You have a ranged poison build that needs to be in melee range in order to properly utilise the poisons.
You can make a melee build if that's the case then, go for strength and a reach weapon, amazing now with the new poison rune+injector.
The only reason to go ranged is to not go melee. The reason to go thrown vs arrows is to not waste poisons and have a free hand when needed. Slinger accommodates every single hole in the build.
You don't need to massively invest in charisma to make it work. It's not like feint only works with max charisma.
aobst128 wrote: Plus, needing to carry a gun around is unfortunate for alchemist since free hands are quite valuable for them. You have a free hand.
That's the whole point of thrown, non returning, weapons.
You could have another free hand at the start though. It's not really defeating the purpose of the build. Your proposed method of gaining flatfooted is just not reliable without hefty charisma investment. Switch hitting or just using bottled... ofc you have other ways of getting flat footed that when triggered you dont have to waste an action trying to feint. That's besides the point.
you need a reliable way of getting flatfooted from range for the vast majority of turns though if you want to play ranged toxicologist.
and the only two ways i know is 1)for arrows 2)slinger feint.
you can still switch hit (if it is absolutely necessary for whatever reason) without any investment whatsoever in any of those builds, just have a dagger alongside the chakri yes, but if the goal of the build is to be ranged, then you need to have in the core build a ranged falt-footed mechanism.
if the majority of time you want to be in melee, just go for a melee build.
Putting points into charisma as an alchemist is generally a poor choice and not what I would consider a reliable means of flatfooted. It's too costly just for pinpoint poisoner. Bottled lightning is what I'd go for instead. The point of an alchemist switch hitter is you've got bombs on hand as well.
aobst128 wrote: Putting points into charisma as an alchemist is generally a poor choice and not what I would consider a reliable means of flatfooted. It's too costly just for pinpoint poisoner. Bottled lightning is what I'd go for instead. The point of an alchemist switch hitter is you've got bombs on hand as well. bottled lighning would mean your main attack would be at -4/-5... as an alchemist.
that's 100% not the right way to go.
getting a +2 on your charisma to have a semireliable flatfooted is nowhere near the end of the world. and certainly much better than trying to hit with a -4/-5
if you want to go switch hitter for your poisons, and your poisons being melee only, then there's literally no reason to go with all the throwing stuff we've been discussing, just go a finesse melee poison weapon and you can still throw your bombs when needed.
shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: Putting points into charisma as an alchemist is generally a poor choice and not what I would consider a reliable means of flatfooted. It's too costly just for pinpoint poisoner. Bottled lightning is what I'd go for instead. The point of an alchemist switch hitter is you've got bombs on hand as well. bottled lighning would mean your main attack would be at -4/-5... as an alchemist.
that's 100% not the right way to go.
getting a +2 on your charisma to have a semireliable flatfooted is nowhere near the end of the world. and certainly much better than trying to hit with a -4/-5
if you want to go switch hitter for your poisons, and your poisons being melee only, then there's literally no reason to go with all the throwing stuff we've been discussing, just go a finesse melee poison weapon and you can still throw your bombs when needed. Your poisons aren't melee only. They're in the bandoliers with along with your thrown weapons. You just have the option to use them in melee. Ideally with the injection mod. The benefit of the bandoliers is you can have a variety of different weapons at your disposal. And that +2 charisma is likely taking from your wisdom which alchemist needs more than most because of bad perception and will.
I don't actually hate the idea I suppose. It just seems to me it's focused too much on one tactic and takes too much for it when I would prefer to have a more well rounded approach, which alchemist excels at naturally with how many options it has.
aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: Putting points into charisma as an alchemist is generally a poor choice and not what I would consider a reliable means of flatfooted. It's too costly just for pinpoint poisoner. Bottled lightning is what I'd go for instead. The point of an alchemist switch hitter is you've got bombs on hand as well. bottled lighning would mean your main attack would be at -4/-5... as an alchemist.
that's 100% not the right way to go.
getting a +2 on your charisma to have a semireliable flatfooted is nowhere near the end of the world. and certainly much better than trying to hit with a -4/-5
if you want to go switch hitter for your poisons, and your poisons being melee only, then there's literally no reason to go with all the throwing stuff we've been discussing, just go a finesse melee poison weapon and you can still throw your bombs when needed. Your poisons aren't melee only. They're in the bandoliers with along with your thrown weapons. You just have the option to use them in melee. Ideally with the injection mod. The benefit of the bandoliers is you can have a variety of different weapons at your disposal. And that +2 charisma is likely taking from your wisdom which alchemist needs more than most because of bad perception and will. but i am not going all in.
i am still as effective a switch hitter as i need to be.
i am just doing the bare minimum to be effective as a primary ranged character though, and that is enabling my core debuff for the poisons to stick.
you need pinpoint poisoner to make the poisons worth it, i know cause i've played quite a bit of toxicologist. without it, they are simply not good enough.
so, if you are only relying to circumstantially have someone flatfooted once every blue moon, then you are going melee to get that.
hence, a build that doesn't have a core way to get ranged flatfooted, is by default a melee build.
you can say it is a melee build that once every so often it "might" wanbt to throw a weapon, but then you dont need the bandolier, so this is futile.
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both builds, melee and ranged, can be switch hitters. The difference is:
ranged build needs ranged flat footed. it gets bandolier and wants to be ranged, but if needed, it can switch to a melee thrown weapon.
melee build doesn't need ranged flat footed. it doesn't get bandolier since that's unecessary, but it can still switch hit if for some reason an enemy is caught flat footed by using a thrown weapon.
shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: Putting points into charisma as an alchemist is generally a poor choice and not what I would consider a reliable means of flatfooted. It's too costly just for pinpoint poisoner. Bottled lightning is what I'd go for instead. The point of an alchemist switch hitter is you've got bombs on hand as well. bottled lighning would mean your main attack would be at -4/-5... as an alchemist.
that's 100% not the right way to go.
getting a +2 on your charisma to have a semireliable flatfooted is nowhere near the end of the world. and certainly much better than trying to hit with a -4/-5
if you want to go switch hitter for your poisons, and your poisons being melee only, then there's literally no reason to go with all the throwing stuff we've been discussing, just go a finesse melee poison weapon and you can still throw your bombs when needed. Your poisons aren't melee only. They're in the bandoliers with along with your thrown weapons. You just have the option to use them in melee. Ideally with the injection mod. The benefit of the bandoliers is you can have a variety of different weapons at your disposal. And that +2 charisma is likely taking from your wisdom which alchemist needs more than most because of bad perception and will. but i am not going all in.
i am still as effective a switch hitter as i need to be.
i am just doing the bare minimum to be effective as a primary ranged character though, and that is enabling my core debuff for the poisons to stick.
you need pinpoint poisoner to make the poisons worth it, i know cause i've played quite a bit of toxicologist. without it, they are simply not good enough.
so, if you are only relying to circumstantially have someone flatfooted once every blue moon, then you are going melee to get that.
hence, a build that doesn't have a core way to get ranged flatfooted, is by default a melee build.
you can say it is a melee build that once every so often it "might"... This is not the bare minimum. This is definitely some extra steps for a very specific tactic. The bare minimum would definitely be to just be an archer with parting shot at this point. This is an odd take that you're deciding that it can only be melee otherwise.
aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: Putting points into charisma as an alchemist is generally a poor choice and not what I would consider a reliable means of flatfooted. It's too costly just for pinpoint poisoner. Bottled lightning is what I'd go for instead. The point of an alchemist switch hitter is you've got bombs on hand as well. bottled lighning would mean your main attack would be at -4/-5... as an alchemist.
that's 100% not the right way to go.
getting a +2 on your charisma to have a semireliable flatfooted is nowhere near the end of the world. and certainly much better than trying to hit with a -4/-5
if you want to go switch hitter for your poisons, and your poisons being melee only, then there's literally no reason to go with all the throwing stuff we've been discussing, just go a finesse melee poison weapon and you can still throw your bombs when needed. Your poisons aren't melee only. They're in the bandoliers with along with your thrown weapons. You just have the option to use them in melee. Ideally with the injection mod. The benefit of the bandoliers is you can have a variety of different weapons at your disposal. And that +2 charisma is likely taking from your wisdom which alchemist needs more than most because of bad perception and will. but i am not going all in.
i am still as effective a switch hitter as i need to be.
i am just doing the bare minimum to be effective as a primary ranged character though, and that is enabling my core debuff for the poisons to stick.
you need pinpoint poisoner to make the poisons worth it, i know cause i've played quite a bit of toxicologist. without it, they are simply not good enough.
so, if you are only relying to circumstantially have someone flatfooted once every blue moon, then you are going melee to get that.
hence, a build that doesn't have a core way to get ranged flatfooted, is by default a melee build.
you can say it is a melee build that once ... i've played archer toxicologist.
the issue here is losing poisons on a miss. something that i had to get to level 10, grab investigator and stratagem, and lose an extra action to make sure my poisons arent wasted.
those things you avoid with the thrown weapons.
getting a 14 in charisma is much cheaper than that.
especially with the new item coming in the same book that allows you to basically halve your poison supply for that sweet +1 to the DC, which would make the poisons all the more valuable to not be destroyed on a miss.
Again, having 2 less on will is bad, yes, but not actually that game changing, while having ranged flatfooted is actually game changing.
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Now, if we're maximizing, you'll be grabbing indipendent and partner in crime for your familiar, and now it automatically also gives you a +2 on your Deception check. Bringing you up to an effective +4 Cha at level 8 if you've started with just a 12 Cha.
roquepo wrote: Changing the matter a bit.
Do you think Paizo will mention if this object is selectable as a Thaumaturge Weapon Implement specifically? It is going to be weird to play a throwing weapon Thaumaturge in general, I think. At least one with weapon implement.
If you can't select this as your weapon implement, you will need another weapon, with its own runes. Blazons are not going to work with the bandolier, so you will need to expend double the cost in weapon runes, making it a bit unviable oitside of ABP games.
If you can select it as your implement, you would need to hold it for most of the classes stuff, which I don't know how it would work.
Asking because I saw someone posting in Advice about a somewhat similar build and I don't know if it will be usable at all without going back to the returning rune.
Thaumaturge MC Champion - Blade Ally at L8 gives you the returning rune effect for free without taking up a rune slot.
L2 - Champion Dedication
L4 - Lay on Hands
L6 - Champion Reaction
L8 - Blade Ally (comes online same level as damage runes).
Start your day with the boomerang on your bandolier, pull it out and make it blade ally. Put it somewhere else or carry it out. Now all the runes on the boomerang match what is on the bandolier but it also has the returning rune from blade ally. Paladin reaction (especially with free archetype) means you could pick up retributive strike and L1 ranged reprisal feat both at 6 and have a replica weapon implement/amulet implement that doesn't have to only be the target of your exploit vulnerabilities.
Usually I pick Tome and Regalia. Regalia is the one you hold for damage bonus, and tome is just there for scaling legendary skills and out of combat recall knowledge checks. Alternatively regalia is so open ended it could probably be your boomerang, but you'd have to check with the GM that you get the damage bonus even if you throw it and it has left you're hand.
Red Griffyn wrote: roquepo wrote: Changing the matter a bit.
Do you think Paizo will mention if this object is selectable as a Thaumaturge Weapon Implement specifically? It is going to be weird to play a throwing weapon Thaumaturge in general, I think. At least one with weapon implement.
If you can't select this as your weapon implement, you will need another weapon, with its own runes. Blazons are not going to work with the bandolier, so you will need to expend double the cost in weapon runes, making it a bit unviable oitside of ABP games.
If you can select it as your implement, you would need to hold it for most of the classes stuff, which I don't know how it would work.
Asking because I saw someone posting in Advice about a somewhat similar build and I don't know if it will be usable at all without going back to the returning rune.
Thaumaturge MC Champion - Blade Ally at L8 gives you the returning rune effect for free without taking up a rune slot.
L2 - Champion Dedication
L4 - Lay on Hands
L6 - Champion Reaction
L8 - Blade Ally (comes online same level as damage runes).
Start your day with the boomerang on your bandolier, pull it out and make it blade ally. Put it somewhere else or carry it out. Now all the runes on the boomerang match what is on the bandolier but it also has the returning rune from blade ally. Paladin reaction (especially with free archetype) means you could pick up retributive strike and L1 ranged reprisal feat both at 6 and have a replica weapon implement/amulet implement that doesn't have to only be the target of your exploit vulnerabilities.
Usually I pick Tome and Regalia. Regalia is the one you hold for damage bonus, and tome is just there for scaling legendary skills and out of combat recall knowledge checks. Alternatively regalia is so open ended it could probably be your boomerang, but you'd have to check with the GM that you get the damage bonus even if you throw it and it has left you're hand. but then why bother with the bandolier?
if you keep using that one boomerang that's your ally, just enchant that directly.
For damage diversity. While the thaumaturge cares less about it then other martials, put in some shurikens/chakri for reload 0 throwers. If you do get quick-draw then you can use 1D6/1D8 piercing/slashing weapons with light bulk like javelins or chakrams.
If you're willing to keep two weapon runes sets (boomerang comes first then the bandolier) then keep the boomerang outside of the bandolier and then you can have 10 P and 10 S light weapons which should hold you for any combat. Then you can have the off damage runes on those just for triggering weaknesses (flaming, force, sonic on you're boomerang and then cold, electric, acid on your bandolier).
Red Griffyn wrote: For damage diversity. While the thaumaturge cares less about it then other martials, put in some shurikens/chakri for reload 0 throwers. If you do get quick-draw then you can use 1D6/1D8 piercing/slashing weapons with light bulk like javelins or chakrams.
If you're willing to keep two weapon runes sets (boomerang comes first then the bandolier) then keep the boomerang outside of the bandolier and then you can have 10 P and 10 S light weapons which should hold you for any combat. Then you can have the off damage runes on those just for triggering weaknesses (flaming, force, sonic on you're boomerang and then cold, electric, acid on your bandolier).
chakri wont have reload 0 in the bag, they only get that when worn on the wrists (2 on each)
i can't remember on top of my head the overhead cost of the bag vs actual runes, i think it was 1 level above or something, so i could see it as a secondary upgrade to get a different type of damage, although usually with Thaumaturge having access to feats like Breached Defences (which would usually allow you to bypass specific damage type resistance) i'm not so sure it is a high priority.
shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: shroudb wrote: aobst128 wrote: Putting points into charisma as an alchemist is generally a poor choice and not what I would consider a reliable means of flatfooted. It's too costly just for pinpoint poisoner. Bottled lightning is what I'd go for instead. The point of an alchemist switch hitter is you've got bombs on hand as well. bottled lighning would mean your main attack would be at -4/-5... as an alchemist.
that's 100% not the right way to go.
getting a +2 on your charisma to have a semireliable flatfooted is nowhere near the end of the world. and certainly much better than trying to hit with a -4/-5
if you want to go switch hitter for your poisons, and your poisons being melee only, then there's literally no reason to go with all the throwing stuff we've been discussing, just go a finesse melee poison weapon and you can still throw your bombs when needed. Your poisons aren't melee only. They're in the bandoliers with along with your thrown weapons. You just have the option to use them in melee. Ideally with the injection mod. The benefit of the bandoliers is you can have a variety of different weapons at your disposal. And that +2 charisma is likely taking from your wisdom which alchemist needs more than most because of bad perception and will. but i am not going all in.
i am still as effective a switch hitter as i need to be.
i am just doing the bare minimum to be effective as a primary ranged character though, and that is enabling my core debuff for the poisons to stick.
you need pinpoint poisoner to make the poisons worth it, i know cause i've played quite a bit of toxicologist. without it, they are simply not good enough.
so, if you are only relying to circumstantially have someone flatfooted once every blue moon, then you are going melee to get that.
hence, a build that doesn't have a core way to get ranged flatfooted, is by default a melee build.
you can say it is a ... I hadn't considered partner in crime. You're missing out on extra reagent that way though. I'm surprised you haven't mentioned assurance since I would have conceded that point. Probably how I'd do it. Assurance for mooks and partner in crime for anyone else so I don't need to boost charisma. Dealing with 2 boosts to charisma for 7 levels before it actually does anything for you wouldn't feel good.
shroudb wrote: chakri wont have reload 0 in the bag, they only get that when worn on the wrists (2 on each) I keep seeing statements to this effect, but I don’t see anything about that in the Nethys entry for Chakri, nor in the description of the weapon in Lost Omens: Impossible Lands.
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Luke Styer wrote: shroudb wrote: chakri wont have reload 0 in the bag, they only get that when worn on the wrists (2 on each) I keep seeing statements to this effect, but I don’t see anything about that in the Nethys entry for Chakri, nor in the description of the weapon in Lost Omens: Impossible Lands. it's in the description of the item in Treasure Vault.
Chakri are listed as Reload - in it, and in their description it says that "A chakri is small and light enough that up to two can be worn on each wrist; a chakri worn on the wrist is treated s reload 0 instead of reload -"
you can see it in the TV video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6qnKh80vYY&t=7695s
if timestamp doesn't work, it should be at 2:08:32 that you can read it
shroudb wrote: it's in the description of the item in Treasure Vault. Thanks! That explains my confusion. I’ve not watched any video about Treasure Vault, just looked at blog posts and such.
I mean, I like that they're using this as a means to make having a bunch of different throwing weapons viable. Need 20 shurikens, but don't have the gold to enchant them all? Makes sense.
I just don't like that you essentially need this type of item to be able to properly use such weapons past, like, 3rd or 4th level, instead of actually fixing how such weapons function in the first place.
Like, at 1st level, I literally can't function without this type of item if my weapon of choice is in fact the shuriken or chakri. It's just bad design.
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Darksol the Painbringer wrote: I mean, I like that they're using this as a means to make having a bunch of different throwing weapons viable. Need 20 shurikens, but don't have the gold to enchant them all? Makes sense.
I just don't like that you essentially need this type of item to be able to properly use such weapons past, like, 3rd or 4th level, instead of actually fixing how such weapons function in the first place.
Like, at 1st level, I literally can't function without this type of item if my weapon of choice is in fact the shuriken or chakri. It's just bad design.
Items like this, doubling rings, and blazons are an unfortunate consequence of the rune system as a whole. ABP should have been the standard.
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Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Like, at 1st level, I literally can't function without this type of item if my weapon of choice is in fact the shuriken or chakri. It's just bad design. Sure you can: you can have a non-vast number of shuriken in your pocket and with reload 0, it's no action to draw them and they only cost 1 cp/shuriken. Seems pretty functional.
You can wear 4 Chakri so you have them at reload 0 so i's good for a round or 2 before you drop to reload -: seems pretty functional.
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3rd level is when fundamental runes come into play which this item exclusively fixes anyways so if you don't have runes in the first place for level 1 and 2, your collection of weapons are all on the same level so no worries.
Well, a +1 Weapon Potency rune is a Level 2 item (as is any +1 Weapon) so you have to wait a level in most circumstances. However, once you have the Bandolier you're set; it doesn't appear you need to upgrade it like you do Doubling Rings or Blazons of Shared Power.
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Hmm. Dagger pistols. Combination weapons share runes between both modes. You could sort of treat throwers bandoliers as gunner's bandoliers that holds 20 dagger pistols and be able to quickdraw them for the rune duplication instead of the action it takes for the gunner's bandoliers. Interesting.
aobst128 wrote: Hmm. Dagger pistols. Combination weapons share runes between both modes. You could sort of treat throwers bandoliers as gunner's bandoliers that holds 20 dagger pistols and be able to quickdraw them for the rune duplication instead of the action it takes for the gunner's bandoliers. Interesting. Interesting indeed XD. Too bad the Critical Fusion trait only work with melee attacks, otherwise it would be even funnier :D
graystone wrote: Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Like, at 1st level, I literally can't function without this type of item if my weapon of choice is in fact the shuriken or chakri. It's just bad design. Sure you can: you can have a non-vast number of shuriken in your pocket and with reload 0, it's no action to draw them and they only cost 1 cp/shuriken. Seems pretty functional.
You can wear 4 Chakri so you have them at reload 0 so i's good for a round or 2 before you drop to reload -: seems pretty functional. I disagree, because thrown weapons aren't projectile weapons. They're thrown weapons. I don't strike with a Chakri with some other ammunition item loaded into it, and they aren't a form of ammunition for any sort of weapon to Strike with. And no, arms aren't projectile weapons. They're arms. They hold things. They can be used to throw things, and there are already rules for this. But they aren't projectile weapons by proxy (even if, fundamentally, they fulfill the formula spelled out in the rules, because the rules don't express this as an interchangeable mechanic).
But I'll tell you what, I'll entertain this exercise. Let's say that Chakri and Shurikens are ammunition and can be stored or held in your arms, and that it doesn't take an action to Draw to Strike with them. Using arrows and bolts as a baseline, let's say you can have 10 of them to make up a Light bulk, and can buy them in stacks of 10. Simple enough, right? At this point, why not just put them in the Ammunition category with an option to use them as individual thrown weapons, which take an action to draw and throw instead?
Back to the original point, if I start with 4 Chakri on my arms, I can conservatively perform 2 Strikes each round without completely wasting them, especially true if I am a Fighter. By Round 3, I now must spend one action to draw one Chakri to throw it as a separate action. This greatly hurts my action economy until either combat ends, or I spend multiple consecutive actions "reloading" my Chakri. Yes, one can argue this isn't unlike Capacity/Repeating weaponry, but if the idea is that I can just keep a bunch of items in my pockets and draw them for free, the rules outright disagree with this being plausible since only this item, and this item alone, permits such mechanics to begin with. I'd rather not rely on GM FIAT telling me that I can do this with such an item, because table variation would suggest that this doesn't work.
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Darksol the Painbringer wrote: At this point, why not just put them in the Ammunition category with an option to use them as individual thrown weapons, which take an action to draw and throw instead? Because ammo is destroyed on a hit.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Back to the original point, if I start with 4 Chakri on my arms, I can conservatively perform 2 Strikes each round without completely wasting them, especially true if I am a Fighter. By Round 3, I now must spend one action to draw one Chakri to throw it as a separate action. This greatly hurts my action economy until either combat ends, or I spend multiple consecutive actions "reloading" my Chakri. Yeah, but that's a LONG way from "I literally can't function without this type of item if my weapon of choice is in fact the shuriken or chakri." You LITERALLY can. You could LITERALLY pick up quick draw and avoid the whole reload 0 issue you seem to have. IMO, it's pretty much a non-issue as you're a thrown build, so you have to deal with he issues EVERY thrown build has.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Yes, one can argue this isn't unlike Capacity/Repeating weaponry, but if the idea is that I can just keep a bunch of items in my pockets and draw them for free, the rules outright disagree with this being plausible since only this item, and this item alone, permits such mechanics to begin with. I'd rather not rely on GM FIAT telling me that I can do this with such an item, because table variation would suggest that this doesn't work. I'm not getting what you are complaining about here.
graystone wrote: Yeah, but that's a LONG way from "I literally can't function without this type of item if my weapon of choice is in fact the shuriken or chakri." You LITERALLY can. You could LITERALLY pick up quick draw and avoid the whole reload 0 issue you seem to have. IMO, it's pretty much a non-issue as you're a thrown build, so you have to deal with he issues EVERY thrown build has. Can confirm. I played a game along side a thrown weapon build. The adventure only went from levels 1-4 and this was before the Thrower's Bandolier (obviously).
Levels 1 and 2 were fine. Quick Draw made drawing and throwing a weapon a one-action. Also worked for drawing and striking with a bigger melee weapon quite nice too. Good switch hitter at both range and melee.
Level 3 made the character have to rely more on the melee side of things because we only had funds to upgrade the character's bigger melee weapon - not the 6 thrown weapons that he used.
Level 4 was more of the same. Thrown weapon usage was rare because they simply didn't do enough damage because of the lack of runes.
Thrower's Bandolier would have fixed those problems and the character would have continued to be a good switch hitter for the entire adventure.
And no, that isn't any worse than a dual wielder needing Doubling Rings. It is - as was mentioned before - simply an unfortunate effect of ABP not being standard.
graystone wrote: Darksol the Painbringer wrote: At this point, why not just put them in the Ammunition category with an option to use them as individual thrown weapons, which take an action to draw and throw instead? Because ammo is destroyed on a hit.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Back to the original point, if I start with 4 Chakri on my arms, I can conservatively perform 2 Strikes each round without completely wasting them, especially true if I am a Fighter. By Round 3, I now must spend one action to draw one Chakri to throw it as a separate action. This greatly hurts my action economy until either combat ends, or I spend multiple consecutive actions "reloading" my Chakri. Yeah, but that's a LONG way from "I literally can't function without this type of item if my weapon of choice is in fact the shuriken or chakri." You LITERALLY can. You could LITERALLY pick up quick draw and avoid the whole reload 0 issue you seem to have. IMO, it's pretty much a non-issue as you're a thrown build, so you have to deal with he issues EVERY thrown build has.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Yes, one can argue this isn't unlike Capacity/Repeating weaponry, but if the idea is that I can just keep a bunch of items in my pockets and draw them for free, the rules outright disagree with this being plausible since only this item, and this item alone, permits such mechanics to begin with. I'd rather not rely on GM FIAT telling me that I can do this with such an item, because table variation would suggest that this doesn't work. I'm not getting what you are complaining about here. So? You can stash tons of ammunition to benefit from this item, so it being destroyed or not is irrelevant. The idea that it's ammunition, but not ammunition, is even dumber design.
Other throwing weapons don't require a feat to function. If the issue is having Returning on a Shuriken/Chakri is too much of a nerf in damage, then you can use...well...literally any other thrown weapon. Also, Reload 0 on a thrown weapon makes no sense, just like Reload - makes no sense on a Daikyu.
The complaint is analogous comparisons does not comprise RAW, and treating it as if it is doesn't work at tables that are more strict on the rules, such as PFS.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: So? You can stash tons of ammunition to benefit from this item, so it being destroyed or not is irrelevant. The idea that it's ammunition, but not ammunition, is even dumber design. It'd be like you're forced to take a normal bow only and have to buy magic ammo to stay competitive: with precious material ammo being 1/10th the cost of a weapon, a similar ratio for your main weapon runes sounds pretty untenable o in effect having o buy a new magic weapon every 10 thrown attacks.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: Other throwing weapons don't require a feat to function. If the issue is having Returning on a Shuriken/Chakri is too much of a nerf in damage, then you can use...well...literally any other thrown weapon. Also, Reload 0 on a thrown weapon makes no sense, just like Reload - makes no sense on a Daikyu. Yes they do: all other thrown weapons need quick draw until you get returning. LITERALLY EVERY ONE. So I'm not sure where you're going with this as you complained about it taking 2 actions to draw and throw weapons.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote: The complaint is analogous comparisons does not comprise RAW, and treating it as if it is doesn't work at tables that are more strict on the rules, such as PFS. What? Everything works fine by the book as/is: reload 0 works with thrown weapons as well as reload - does. If you have an issue with the word reload attached to one, you should have it with the other. Reload for a thrown weapon means drawing it:
"An item with an entry of “—” must be drawn to be thrown, which usually takes an Interact action just like drawing any other weapon."
Take that back to reload 0 and it's not hard to see it means 'This can be 0 if drawing ammunition weapon and firing attacking the weapon are part of the same action.' How many people do you foresee not being able to figure this out? I haven't heard of any tables, PFS or any other, having an issue with shurikens: have YOU heard of any tables having the same conundrum you have with them? I mean that could add a line to make it 100% clear but I think everyone else has managed just fine with it being 99.9% clear. I know I have a few thousand questions I want cleared up before I'd want this addressed.
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