So what would be the best multiclass option for Shifter?


Advice

Silver Crusade

So after learning that shifter is the single most frontloaded class in the game with any level beyond 4th being largely pointless, i was thinking what would synergize most with how the shifter operates?

Right now its a toss up between either brawler or barbarian for me, but i was wonder if there is anything else im not thinking about.

Dark Archive

Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:

So after learning that shifter is the single most frontloaded class in the game with any level beyond 4th being largely pointless, i was thinking what would synergize most with how the shifter operates?

Right now its a toss up between either brawler or barbarian for me, but i was wonder if there is anything else im not thinking about.

warpriest and fighters with advanced weapon training to get warpriest scaling damage are contenders

slayer/ranger are nice for skills and full bab


My group currently has a Gestalt Shifter (elemental archetype) - Brawler (Snakebite striker Archetype)

So, flurry of blows, with elemental damage, and sneak attack damage. With Full BAB


The best Shifter multi-class build is Shifter0/LiterallyAnyOtherClass20


I would argue that 3 levels of Zen Archer monk is more front loaded than shifter but anyways...

Shifter only works well if you want to play a natural attack polymorphing build.

If you follow the rules that you can't multiclass into the parent class of druid, I'm not sure there's anything worth multiclassing with.


The single most front loaded class is not shifter… its monk… especially if you take the Zen Archer archetype… 3 levels and you have everything you need for any archery build…

Shifter is frontloaded, but its issue is more that there is little to no reason to take the class past 4th level…

Something I would consider multiclassing into as a shifter is Minhir Guardian Monk… you’ll continue to advance your shifter’s claws class feature and you’ll get a lot of useful martial class features and bonus feats. This option lets you keep the feel and flavor of the Shifter while actually getting useful new abilities.

Ranger could also be a good option… if you have a GM who will allow the Shapeshifting Hunter feat to apply to Shifter’s Wild Shape as well… if not… then taking one of the archetypes that replaces the Shifter’s Wildshape with the Druids is a valid workaround to make this feat work, though most of the delay your access to wildshape by a level or two…


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Assuming you go for a pouncing aspect, Brawler is a bit of a waste since you have no use for Flurry or scaling unarmed damage. And excluding some Horn of the Criosphinx/Ascetic Style/Martial Versatility jank, you lack good ways to add damage as well.

Among the full-BAB options I'd say Samurai/Cavalier can work well. Four levels of Shifter is exactly enough for Boon Companion to get you on track, and the Challenge is a good source of damage.
Barbarian would, as you've realized, suit Shifter. Bloodrager is a bit worse off since you want to pump your Wisdom as a Shifter. Same reason why Pally won't suit you.
Slayer/Ranger/Fighter aren't especially bad or good, imo. They will serve you fine.

I think Derklord has named the Warpriest a couple of times in previous threads, and I agree with that. Swift-action casting that won't interfere with your pouncing, bonus combat feats to offset the relative poor levels of Shifter, and Wisdom synergy.
The downside is that Sacred Weapon isn't really all that good when it's delayed by four levels and split over 3-4 different types of natural attacks. It's worth switching it out with an archetype.

Dumber ideas would be a Spiritualist with Phantom Ally as a Weretouched Shifter with the Elephant Aspect. Then you can act as your Phantom's mount (and benefit from feats such as Mounted Combat) even if you're size small, like some horrifying ghostly bear-on-a-tricycle circus trick.


Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
So after learning that shifter is the single most frontloaded class in the game with any level beyond 4th being largely pointless, i was thinking what would synergize most with how the shifter operates?

Jinyiwei Investigator. Wis-based 6/9 casting, with Quick Study you can add half the investigator levels to attack and damage, and Alchemist Discovery allows you to grab Mutagen. You have literally every skill a class skill, and a plenty of skill ranks and bonuses.

Other good options:
• Warpriest. 6/9 casting, and swift action bonus to attack and damage rolls. Low on skills, though.
• Cleric grants full casting, especially good when you can pre-buff, and with the Stars domain, you get flight at 9th total level.
• Shaman if human or half-human (to get Divine Favor). Build in flight at 9th level, and the pseudo-armor hexes could be nice.
• Spiritualist with the Phantom Ally feat lets you have a full progression Phantom, plus of course 6/9 casting.
• Hunter with Boon Companion lets you do a tag-team, with the same animal if you like. 6/9 casting, and the list is somewhat on-target, but not the strongest.
• Druid, again with Boon Companion. Full casting with full level companion, although the spell list is weak. You'd probably want to pick the domain option rather than a redundant Wild Shape.

Barbarian is possible, but simply pales in comparison to other options. Sure, it may be better at 5th level, but that's not quite the goal, is it?
I don't see how Brawler would by anything but crap - it takes until 6th level to get swift action Martial Flexibility, and that's your only notable class feature.

Name Violation wrote:
warpriest and fighters with advanced weapon training to get warpriest scaling damage are contenders

Weapon damage dice are way overrated. Warpriest is still a good choice, but because of Fervor'd Divine Favor, not the damage dice. MAC is a better choice than vanilla Warpriest.

Claxon wrote:
I would argue that 3 levels of Zen Archer monk is more front loaded than shifter

Considering how much archery stuff you still want, compared to how 4 levels in WTS grants you more than you can get from any other class, I would argue otherwise. Zen Archer also has (slightly) more reason to stay for a couple more levels, with ki pool granting another attack next elvel, and 6th level bringing Improved Precise Shot.

Claxon wrote:
If you follow the rules that you can't multiclass into the parent class of druid, I'm not sure there's anything worth multiclassing with.

Not only is there no such rule, Shifter is not a hybrid class.


Derklord wrote:
Claxon wrote:


I would argue that 3 levels of Zen Archer monk is more front loaded than shifter

Considering how much archery stuff you still want, compared to how 4 levels in WTS grants you more than you can get from any other class, I would argue otherwise. Zen Archer also has (slightly) more reason to stay for a couple more levels, with ki pool granting another attack next elvel, and 6th level bringing Improved Precise Shot.

I mean, yes you still want more archery stuff than what 3 levels of Zen Archer gets you. But it's still a jam packed 3 levels. And I was simply comparing Zen Archer gains to base Shifter gains. I have no idea what WTS is, so I can't argue on that point. As to whether there are reasons to stay longer in Zen Archer, there certainly can be but at that point it stops being a front loaded dip and turns into multiclass.

Personally I like a 3 level "dip" into zen archer followed by level in Inquisitor. Even though you actually start life as a Zen archer, you end up with more levels in Inquisitor.

Claxon wrote:


If you follow the rules that you can't multiclass into the parent class of druid, I'm not sure there's anything worth multiclassing with.
Not only is there no such rule, Shifter is not a hybrid class.

I could have sworn there was a rule that you couldn't multiclass with parent classes, and that Shifter was a druid fighter hybrid but I doubled checked both and I am wrong.

However, you tone comes across a bit hostile, though perhaps I am reading something that isn't actually there. Anyways, I would ask/suggest perhaps wording things a bit differently in general so your posts come across in a better way. The world is difficult enough, I want the Paizo forums as a place for positive productive discussion and though we can't eliminate the difference between written and verbal expression, we can all improve our method of communication to be more welcoming and friendly.


Claxon wrote:
I have no idea what WTS is, so I can't argue on that point.

Weretouched Shifter, which I assume is what the OP is inquiring about based on his other thread. Although I only now realize this thread doesn't specify. My entire answer was writen with WTS in mind, actually.

Four levels in Weretouched Shifter with Deinonychus aspect grant +2 strength, AC bonus that puts you ahead of medium armor users while using light armor, five primary natural attacks, and pounce, all without preventing you from using armor and equipment.

And, on the topic of "front loaded", what you gain afterwards is a joke, with DR/silver equal to half your level the best and only real notable class feature.

Claxon wrote:
I could have sworn there was a rule that you couldn't multiclass with parent classes, and that Shifter was a druid fighter hybrid but I doubled checked both and I am wrong.

It used to be a rule in the ACG playtest, but never made it into the finished product. And while almost all Shifter class features were lazily copy-pasted from other classes (Druid, Monk, and Hunter), only the ACG classes are classified as hybrid classes.

Claxon wrote:
However, you tone comes across a bit hostile, though perhaps I am reading something that isn't actually there.

I'm not bad, my avatar is just drawn that way!

Seriously, though, no hostility whatsoever was intended!

­

Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
So after learning that shifter is the single most frontloaded class in the game with any level beyond 4th being largely pointless

Weretouched Shifter is pointless after 4th level. The archetype significantly changes the class, though, so the same doesn't apply to regular Shifter. Vanilla Shifter is pretty much dead after... 5th level! *insert rimshot*

That's not a joke, though. For vanilla Shifter, the 5th level is very muhc worth it to get early, long-duration flight, but the class is very much dead afterwards. Not because a character staying in class wouldn't be competitive, but because everything the class grants can be gotten from other classes, and then some.


You over exaggerate the benefits of weretouched shifter… its really not much better than a vanilla shifter at 4th lvl… weretouched locks you to one aspect, which at 4th level doesn’t change anything since 2nd aspect is at 5th for vanilla… but having access to both a flying form and a high damage form at 5th is a pretty significant benefit for vanilla shifters. WTS’s wild empathy is straight up nerfed, granted wild empathy is largely useless anyways… lycanthropic wild shape in all honesty doesn’t provide any major benefit over vanilla shifters wildshape other than retaining access to all equipment. The +2 size to strength is actually weaker than what most major forms grant, most of them are large size creatures and as a result give you a +4 size bonus to strength as per Beast Shape 2, the same applies to the natural armor bonus as well. The only advantage is keeping your armor and having the ability to retract your shifter claws… yes I said retract. A shifter normally extends their claws automatically during wildshape applying their benefits to two natural weapons of their choice, weretouched can just choose if they use them do or not. Pounce and 5 natural attacks may be a nice benefit if you choose deinonychus, but there are plenty of other aspects that may not perform as well with weretouched. And guess what… a vanilla shifter with deinonychus aspect has the exact same benefits at 4th.


Chell Raighn wrote:
lycanthropic wild shape in all honesty doesn’t provide any major benefit over vanilla shifters wildshape other than retaining access to all equipment.

The benefits of Lycanthropic Wild Shape includes using wands, having thumbs, climbing ladders, speaking with allies, using a shield and armor, having the option to wield weapons, activating your boots of speed, riding a mount, not being hosed as a Dex build, etc etc.

I can't tell exactly what you mean by "retract your shifter claws" or how you came to that conclusion, but the text is quite clear. A normal shifter can only extend their claws while "in her natural form" and a Weretouched explicitly "counts as being in her natural form for the purpose of determining whether she can extend her shifter claws".

So if you had the Bat aspect you'd normally get just a Bite attack when you use your Major Form and be unable to extend your shifter claws. As a Weretouched you can do so for a total of three natural attacks instead of just the bite.


Derklord wrote:
Claxon wrote:
I have no idea what WTS is, so I can't argue on that point.

Weretouched Shifter, which I assume is what the OP is inquiring about based on his other thread. Although I only now realize this thread doesn't specify. My entire answer was writen with WTS in mind, actually.

Four levels in Weretouched Shifter with Deinonychus aspect grant +2 strength, AC bonus that puts you ahead of medium armor users while using light armor, five primary natural attacks, and pounce, all without preventing you from using armor and equipment.

And, on the topic of "front loaded", what you gain afterwards is a joke, with DR/silver equal to half your level the best and only real notable class feature.

Claxon wrote:
I could have sworn there was a rule that you couldn't multiclass with parent classes, and that Shifter was a druid fighter hybrid but I doubled checked both and I am wrong.

It used to be a rule in the ACG playtest, but never made it into the finished product. And while almost all Shifter class features were lazily copy-pasted from other classes (Druid, Monk, and Hunter), only the ACG classes are classified as hybrid classes.

Claxon wrote:
However, you tone comes across a bit hostile, though perhaps I am reading something that isn't actually there.

I'm not bad, my avatar is just drawn that way!

Seriously, though, no hostility whatsoever was intended!

Thanks for clarifying, I figured there was a 50% chance I was reading something in that wasn't there. But with the influx on new people on the board I hope the board stays as welcoming as possible.

Regarding the rule about not multicalssing with parent class, I knew I didn't completely imagine it. I do remember back to the ACG playtest, it was one of the most exciting product playtests and I thought the rule of not multiclassing with parent class made sense, but yeah I guess it didn't make it to the final product. And you're right that the Shifter robbing class features from other classes must be what made me think it's a hybrid, though technically it isn't.


Wonderstell wrote:
Chell Raighn wrote:
lycanthropic wild shape in all honesty doesn’t provide any major benefit over vanilla shifters wildshape other than retaining access to all equipment.

The benefits of Lycanthropic Wild Shape includes using wands, having thumbs, climbing ladders, speaking with allies, using a shield and armor, having the option to wield weapons, activating your boots of speed, riding a mount, not being hosed as a Dex build, etc etc.

I can't tell exactly what you mean by "retract your shifter claws" or how you came to that conclusion, but the text is quite clear. A normal shifter can only extend their claws while "in her natural form" and a Weretouched explicitly "counts as being in her natural form for the purpose of determining whether she can extend her shifter claws".

So if you had the Bat aspect you'd normally get just a Bite attack when you use your Major Form and be unable to extend your shifter claws. As a Weretouched you can do so for a total of three natural attacks instead of just the bite.

First sentence third paragraph of the shifter claws ability. “While a shifter uses wild shape to assume her aspect's major form, her natural attacks gain the same benefits granted by her shifter claws ability.” Your claws are automatically applied to your major forms natural weapons. The benefit of extending them in hybrid form is in reality just that you can choose if they apply or not. In effect you have the choice to NOT benefit from them, vs always benefiting from them.

Silver Crusade

Chell Raighn wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
Chell Raighn wrote:
lycanthropic wild shape in all honesty doesn’t provide any major benefit over vanilla shifters wildshape other than retaining access to all equipment.

The benefits of Lycanthropic Wild Shape includes using wands, having thumbs, climbing ladders, speaking with allies, using a shield and armor, having the option to wield weapons, activating your boots of speed, riding a mount, not being hosed as a Dex build, etc etc.

I can't tell exactly what you mean by "retract your shifter claws" or how you came to that conclusion, but the text is quite clear. A normal shifter can only extend their claws while "in her natural form" and a Weretouched explicitly "counts as being in her natural form for the purpose of determining whether she can extend her shifter claws".

So if you had the Bat aspect you'd normally get just a Bite attack when you use your Major Form and be unable to extend your shifter claws. As a Weretouched you can do so for a total of three natural attacks instead of just the bite.

First sentence third paragraph of the shifter claws ability. “While a shifter uses wild shape to assume her aspect's major form, her natural attacks gain the same benefits granted by her shifter claws ability.” Your claws are automatically applied to your major forms natural weapons. The benefit of extending them in hybrid form is in reality just that you can choose if they apply or not. In effect you have the choice to NOT benefit from them, vs always benefiting from them.

Well it also depends on whether the form you take actually has claws to begin with or not, if it doesn't suddenly more forms are more competitive.


The sentence you're speaking of is referring to the paragraph directly before that which details how the Shifter Claws ignore certain DR at certain levels. What it says is that a Shifter that enters their Major Form will ignore DR/Cold Iron, DR/magic, and DR/Silver. And at level 19 you ignore DR/adamantine and DR/—.

Nowhere does it state that you get the benefit of your Shifter Claws while in a Major Form. Or that your Major Form does. It states that your natural attacks gain the same benefits [as those just described]. Which if you've read paragraph two should be obvious what they're referring to.

Even if your natural attacks did get the ability to extend Shifter Claws, it wouldn't do anything because they're not creatures and doesn't have actions. I'm honestly shook that you interpreted the ability this way.

Shifter Claws (Su):
At will, a shifter in her natural form can extend her claws as a swift action to use as a weapon. This magical transformation is fueled as much by the shifter's faith in the natural world as it is by inborn talent. The claws on each hand can be used as a primary natural attack, dealing 1d4 points of piercing and slashing damage (1d3 if she is Small). If she uses one of her claw attacks in concert with a weapon held in the other hand, the claw acts as a secondary natural attack instead.

As the shifter gains levels, the power of her claws increases. At 3rd level, her claws ignore DR/cold iron, DR/magic, and DR/silver. At 7th level, her claw damage increases to 1d6 (1d4 if Small). At 11th level, her claw damage increases to 1d8 (1d6 if Small). At 13th level, her claw damage increases to 1d10 (1d8 if Small). At 17th level, the damage die does not increase, but the critical multiplier becomes ×3. Lastly, at 19th level, the claws ignore DR/adamantine and DR/—.

While a shifter uses wild shape to assume her aspect's major form, her natural attacks gain the same benefits granted by her shifter claws ability. If the form she takes has claw attacks, she can use either the base damage of her shifter claws or the damage of the form's claws, whichever is greater. If the form does not have claw attacks, she can choose up to two natural attacks that would deal less damage than her shifter claw damage and have those attacks instead deal the same damage as her shifter claws.


Wonderstell wrote:

The sentence you're speaking of is referring to the paragraph directly before that which details how the Shifter Claws ignore certain DR at certain levels. What it says is that a Shifter that enters their Major Form will ignore DR/Cold Iron, DR/magic, and DR/Silver. And at level 19 you ignore DR/adamantine and DR/—.

Nowhere does it state that you get the benefit of your Shifter Claws while in a Major Form. Or that your Major Form does. It states that your natural attacks gain the same benefits [as those just described]. Which if you've read paragraph two should be obvious what they're referring to.

Even if your natural attacks did get the ability to extend Shifter Claws, it wouldn't do anything because they're not creatures and doesn't have actions. I'm honestly shook that you interpreted the ability this way.

** spoiler omitted **...

You seem to be misreading what I am saying here. Let me break it down for you.

1) when you extend your claws you gain a pair of claws and the benefits of the shifter claws feature. The benefits of your shifter claws include, increased damage, a x3 crit multiplier, and the ability to bypass various DRs. These benefits are granted at various levels.
2) when you wildshape into your major form these benefits are applied automatically. If the creature has claws it applied to their claws all the time. If the creature does not have claws you pick up to 2 of their natural weapons and apply the benefits to them for the duration of the wildshape. You don’t get to choose if it applies, the benefits apply at all times when using your major form. In effect your claws are extended.
3) weretouch gives you the ability to choose to extend your claws or not when in hybrid form. This means your claws do not automatically apply their benefits in hybrid form but you must choose to apply them. Since most of the time you will want higher damage and to bypass DR they will usually be extended in combat. The main thing this ability does is lets you choose to NOT extend them, in other words you can retract them.

Based on what you just said, you seem to believe that only the bypassing of DR is a benefit of the claws… which completely ignores the rest of the third paragraph which informs you that if the base damage of the forms claws is normally higher you can use that damage instead of your shifter claws damage, and how to apply the benefits if the form lacks claws.

Now… I suppose an added benefit of hybrid form is being able to gain claws in addition to the normal natural weapons of a major form if you choose one that lacks claws… can’t use alternative shifter claws for any extra natural attack shenanigans with weretouched, since your alternate choices are determined by your aspects and weretouched only gets the one… but you could use it to enhance other natural weapons in hybrid form.


Chell Raighn wrote:
The +2 size to strength is actually weaker than what most major forms grant

The attack roll bonus isn't.

Chell Raighn wrote:
the same applies to the natural armor bonus as well

With this statement you made it clear that you never properly looked at Wild Shape or the Beast Shape line. A medium form has +2 AC from the NA bonus. A large form has +4 NA... but -2 dex (resulting in -1 AC) and a -1 AC size penalty, for a net gain of +2 AC. A huge form has +6 NA, but -4 dex (resulting in -2 AC) and a -2 AC size penalty, for a net gain of, once again, +2 AC.

Chell Raighn wrote:
In effect your claws are extended.

No. You apply the improvements, that's completely seperate form the claws being extended.

Chell Raighn wrote:
3) weretouch gives you the ability to choose to extend your claws or not when in hybrid form. This means your claws do not automatically apply their benefits in hybrid form but you must choose to apply them.

No, the "extrend class" ability grants natural attacks. A Weretouched Shifter can grow claws and gain the natural weapons in addition to the natural weapons gained from the aspect. That's what allows the five natural attacks to begin with. No vanilla Shifter gets more than three natural attacks from their class at 4th level.

Chell Raighn wrote:
If the creature does not have claws you pick up to 2 of their natural weapons and apply the benefits to them for the duration of the wildshape.

No, the increased damage can only apply to two attacks, the DR penetration and crit multiplier benefits apply to all natural weapons when Wild Shape'd.

Chell Raighn wrote:
can’t use alternative shifter claws for any extra natural attack shenanigans with weretouched, since your alternate choices are determined by your aspects and weretouched only gets the one…

Only relevant if the alternate natural weapons (plus claws) and the natural weapons gained form major form 100% align. Which is not the case for 24 out of the 30 aspects. For example, the Wolf aspect's major form only grants a bite, a Weretouched Shifter can add two claws.

Chell Raighn wrote:
Pounce and 5 natural attacks may be a nice benefit if you choose deinonychus, but there are plenty of other aspects that may not perform as well with weretouched.

True, but you can't judge a class based on bad choices. It's like if you judged the Wizard class based on a player who starts with 7 int.


Derklord wrote:
Chell Raighn wrote:
The +2 size to strength is actually weaker than what most major forms grant
The attack roll bonus isn't. out...

What attack roll bonus? No where in the weretouched archetype is there specifically an attack roll bonus. You get a +2 size bonus to str, which is a +1 bonus to str based attacks and damage. If you mean the attack penalty for large size… well all that results in is both being equal on attack bonus… insignificant.

Derklord wrote:
Chell Raighn wrote:
the same applies to the natural armor bonus as well
With this statement you made it clear that you never properly looked at Wild Shape or the Beast Shape line. A medium form has +2 AC from the NA bonus. A large form has +4 NA... but -2 dex (resulting in -1 AC) and a -1 AC size penalty, for a net gain of +2 AC. A huge form has +6 NA, but -4 dex (resulting in -2 AC) and a -2 AC size penalty, for a net gain of, once again, +2 AC. out...

I am perfectly aware of how wildshape works and by extension beastshape. If you actually read my post you’d know that. Nothing you said here is contrary to what I said.

Derklord wrote:
Chell Raighn wrote:
In effect your claws are extended.
No. You apply the improvements, that's completely seperate form the claws being extended. out...

Not gonna repeat myself on this… read my previous post.

Derklord wrote:
Chell Raighn wrote:
3) weretouch gives you the ability to choose to extend your claws or not when in hybrid form. This means your claws do not automatically apply their benefits in hybrid form but you must choose to apply them.
No, the "extrend class" ability grants natural attacks. A Weretouched Shifter can grow claws and gain the natural weapons in addition to the natural weapons gained from the aspect. That's what allows the five natural attacks to begin with. No vanilla Shifter gets more than three natural attacks from their class at 4th level. out...

As I stated in my previous post, this only gives you more attacks IF your chosen aspect lacks claws. If they have claws, then you just toggle between having improved claws and not. Even if you use alternate shifter claws this will NOT hive you additional natural attacks if your aspect has claws.

Derklord wrote:
Chell Raighn wrote:
If the creature does not have claws you pick up to 2 of their natural weapons and apply the benefits to them for the duration of the wildshape.
No, the increased damage can only apply to two attacks, the DR penetration and crit multiplier benefits apply to all natural weapons when Wild Shape'd. out...

Find me and FAQ that says that, otherwise agree to disagree. The wording is clear to me that its all or nothing to two natural weapons.

Derklord wrote:
Chell Raighn wrote:
can’t use alternative shifter claws for any extra natural attack shenanigans with weretouched, since your alternate choices are determined by your aspects and weretouched only gets the one…
Only relevant if the alternate natural weapons (plus claws) and the natural weapons gained form major form 100% align. Which is not the case for 24 out the 30 aspects. For example, the Wolf aspect's major form only grants a bite, a Weretouched Shifter can add two claws.

For what its worth… there is an argument to be had against your deinonychus with 5natural attacks argument due to the wording of its major form. “and two talon attacks (1d8 damage; your talon attacks can use your shifter claws damage),” there is a perfectly valid argument that this line restricts your shifter claws to applying to the talons only… and by extension extending them in hybrid should only improve the talons… but that argument might be a bit pedantic.

Derklord wrote:
Chell Raighn wrote:
Pounce and 5 natural attacks may be a nice benefit if you choose deinonychus, but there are plenty of other aspects that may not perform as well with weretouched.
True, but you can't judge a class based on bad choices. It's like if you judged the Wizard class based on a player who starts with 7 int.

Cant judge it based on an edge case either… you have 2 choices that give pounce… and one of those has claws…


Chell Raighn wrote:
2) when you wildshape into your major form these benefits are applied automatically. If the creature has claws it applied to their claws all the time. If the creature does not have claws you pick up to 2 of their natural weapons and apply the benefits to them for the duration of the wildshape. You don’t get to choose if it applies, the benefits apply at all times when using your major form. In effect your claws are extended.

Okay this here is what went wrong. "Extending" your claws is specifically referring to the swift action when you gain two claw attacks. The term has nothing to do with paragraph 3 and using the term like that invites misunderstandings.

But as long as we agree the Weretouched is the only Shifter that can [gain two extra natural attacks] from Shifter Claws while in their hybrid form, that's ok.


For the past week, I've been building a major NPC like a PC (1 of PC's may take her over if they don't stop rolling single digits...).
A Rougarou (wolf-folk) Shifter 3, Ranger (Wild Stalker archetype) 7.
Rougarou has low light vision, scent, shapechanger subtype, and a primary 1d4 bite as racials. Shifter 3 gives 2x primary 1d4 claws treated as magic and silver plus animal aspects and gives back abilities Wild Stalker archetype trades out.
Ranger Natural Weapon combat feats with, so Elephant in the Room feat taxes applies Weapon Focus to all weapons in a Fighter weapons group, not just 1 weapon. Improved Natural Attack at 2nd R level increases all natural attacks 1d up. Rending Claws at 6th R level for another d6 damage. Weapon Focus (natural Weapons) at 1st level for +1 to hit w/all natural weapons. Totemic Initiate at character level 3 for Beast Totem, Lesser and Totemic Disciple at character level 9 for Beast Totem. Then Totemic Master for Beast Totem, Greater and pounce. Add an animal companion in there with full BAB.

Yay, nay?


    Three levels in Shifter doesn't make sense, as the third level does virtually nothing, and the second level is only useful with high wisdom.
    Depending on what the goal is, I'd recommend either four levels in Shifter for Wild Shape (Weretouched if keeping humanoid form is desired)*, or zero levels in shifter, instead getting claws from Lesser Beast Totem.

I'd just make it a single class Wild Stalker.

What also doesn't make sense is the Totemic line on a Wild Stalker - they qualify for Extra Rage Power, so why not simply take that?

*) Although the wolf aspect utterly sucks, if you don't want a different animal form, I advise against taking four levels in Shifter.

Johnny1971 wrote:
Improved Natural Attack at 2nd R level increases all natural attacks 1d up.

For +1 average damage. That is pretty poor for a feat.

Johnny1971 wrote:
Rending Claws at 6th R level for another d6 damage.

Another seriously weak feat, worse yet than +1 to damage rolls.


Shifter + Psychic (Self-Perfection discipline)

2nd level Shifter ability: Defensive Instinct (wisdom Bonus to AC)
is effectively doubled with Psychic, Self Perfection Discipline power:

AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, you add your Wisdom bonus (if any) to your AC and CMD. The bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when you’re flat-footed. You lose these bonuses when you’re immobilized or helpless, when you wear any armor, when you carry a shield, or when you carry a medium or heavy load.

Wisdom 16 = +6 AC bonus

level 1 Psychic should be able to cast spells in Aspect form. 1st level list provides access to both Mage Armor & Shield

Dark Archive

Rhanze1999 wrote:

Shifter + Psychic (Self-Perfection discipline)

2nd level Shifter ability: Defensive Instinct (wisdom Bonus to AC)
is effectively doubled with Psychic, Self Perfection Discipline power:

AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, you add your Wisdom bonus (if any) to your AC and CMD. The bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when you’re flat-footed. You lose these bonuses when you’re immobilized or helpless, when you wear any armor, when you carry a shield, or when you carry a medium or heavy load.

Wisdom 16 = +6 AC bonus

level 1 Psychic should be able to cast spells in Aspect form. 1st level list provides access to both Mage Armor & Shield

Can't get wis to AC twice

Can't use a single stat as an untyped bonus twice.
There's an FAQ about double dipping stats like that

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