Why did the priests of Irori cease to be TN in the second edition?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


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Why did the priests of Irori cease to be TN in the second edition?
What is the reason for this change?

Is it possible that in 1e TN was understood differently than in 2e? (in the first edition , an example of TN was- ascetics who take no side and instead seek spiritual perfection of the self - which is very suitable for Irori )

If so, can you please clarify this point.

Silver Crusade

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I guess Irori values Order more.

Most deities had shakeups in what they’ll allow.


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There's been a general shift in balance being consider a Lawful concept, rather than a Neutral one, I believe - the change to Aeons reflects that, at the very least.


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In 1e, permitted alignments for clerics of a deity were derived mechanically: Within one space of the deity's alignment. This meant that no matter the deity's own philosophy, if they happened to be one of the 4 neutral alignments, they also permitted worshippers who didn't follow the same ethos.

For some deities this made sense, but for many (example: Sarenrae) it didn't really follow that they would permit worshippers who didn't adhere to the one aspect of alignment they cared about (i.e. Sarenrae is a goddess who stands for Good above all else--clerics are hardly adhering to her teachings if they aren't themselves Good).

The result is we now have (mostly) much more flavour-compliant lists of permissions for clerics and champions. For some deities this means their followers must adhere to a much more strict list of alignments (Asmodeus will not grant you power if you are not also a LE tyrant) and for a rare few others the list has expanded into things that previously weren't possible (most significant example being Arazni; though she wasn't worshipped in 1e, her clerics in 2e can range from LN to NE to CG).

Mind you of course this doesn't apply to followers who don't directly derive power from their deity's blessing. Technically a priest of Irori could be TN, but only if they weren't also a cleric (most priests in Golarion tend to be clerics, but as far as it actually just being a job in a congregation, technically any class can be their deity's top servant in an area).


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keftiu wrote:
There's been a general shift in balance being consider a Lawful concept, rather than a Neutral one, I believe - the change to Aeons reflects that, at the very least.

Can you please explain what you mean?

It's just that there is an ascetic mentioned in the post who is considered TN - isn't he an ideal follower of Irori? How exactly did the shift happen, what did it change?

Silver Crusade

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Going in to Second Edition they considered “everything must be balanced” to be a Lawful mindset, rather than Neutral.

That ascetic you spoke of you said was in First Edition, yes there’s been a change with the Edition change.


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To be fair, striving for and maintaining balance is the vibe that got folded into LN because it was deemed that constantly enforcing a system of balance was inherently law-aligned.

Not picking a 'side' and eschewing the alignment does indeed still suit the description of TN, imho.

Of course, Irori's focus on strict teachings and rigorous discipline does make him lean more Lawful, so granting magic only to his followers who likewise obey the strict teachings is in character, ignoring those who have no interest in either law or chaos.

Not to say I could never see Irori being chill with people who aren't as focused on order and harmony as he. I do have some disagreements with some new deity arrays (most notably the TN deities who still treat neutrality as a distinct thing), but I can see why Irori might choose only lawful adherents now that 2e gives us the option.


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Quote:

Edicts: be humble; help others perfect themselves; hone your body, mind, and spirit to a more perfect state; practice discipline

Anathema: become addicted to a substance, destroy an important historical text, repeatedly fail to maintain self-control

Irori's doctrine is spelled out a bit more in PF2. It's a bit harder to be a devout Irorian who self-isolates when one of the edicts is to help others perfect themselves, and it's a little harder to fall under neutral when maintaining self-control is so important. Irori might approve of this ascetic, but whether he would respect their independence and let them go about their journey of self-improvement without taking them on as a priest, or if he would consider their neutral attitude an improper attitude for a truly devoted discipline, they would not get priestly spells from him.

Irori might also approve of and even bless someone who doesn't quite meet the "priest" criteria. The rules have three example boons for him to bestow. The witch class and multiclass exist partly as a way for powerful entities to bestow magic with fewer restrictions. And of course, somebody can still follow Irori even if they aren't being granted spells.

It's also worth noting that the one-step rule in PF1 was mostly intended as something for PCs. Because there were weird options (what does a neutral follower of a particularly evil demon lord even believe or practice?), almost all divinely empowered followers of a deity were presumed to share the exact alignment of their deity with the occasional exception. PF2 nailed down what alignments the deities actually support, so it's a little more normal to have a LG or LE Irorian priest than it was in PF1, and TN goes from "rare exception" to "house rules exception".

Plus, of course, the things other people mentioned.

Silly answer: Irori took the monk class's alignment restrictions on himself so that more people could pursue ki strike flurry of blows physical and spiritual perfection.

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