paizo.com Recent Posts in How many of your games actually go past level 10?paizo.com Recent Posts in How many of your games actually go past level 10?2023-01-30T20:22:05Z2023-01-30T20:22:05ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: How many of your games actually go past level 10?UnArcaneElectionhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43qwq&page=2?How-many-of-your-games-actually-go-past-level-10#662023-03-26T06:39:39Z2023-03-26T06:37:57Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mathmuse wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Sysryke wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">UnArcaneElection wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:</div><blockquote><p> {. . .}
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I guess i just got so used to killer DM's i build my character with the expectation that my DM is actively trying to kill me. </blockquote><p>I haven't had the misfortune to have <i>had</i> one of those yet, but in my first few years of AD&D playing I was introduced to one (fortunately never met in person) via a primitive precursor of social media (yes, such things existed even in the late 1970s). That killer DM (a particularly vicious and capricious <i>yet surprisingly popular</i> DM who took joy in tearing up character sheets, and making the players start over with a new 1st level character(•)) was a university professor. I was going to say what they were a professor of, but first, anybody care to take a guess?
<p>(•)I didn't think to ask about the highest level characters got to in that campaign, but for some reason the vicinity of level 8 or so sticks in my head. </blockquote>Based on personal trauma, I would guess physics. But a twisted psychology or literature professor would also seem to fit here. </blockquote><p>I myself used to be a professor of mathematics, and I can still send fear down people's spines with a math lecture. Bwahaha.
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{. . .} </blockquote><p>Psychology professor is the correct answer to the profession of the character sheet vorpalizer I was describing above.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">TriOmegaZero wrote:</div><blockquote> Let's see, Reign of Winter, Rise of the Runelords, Skull and Shackles, that's three so far. Strange Aeons is likely to make it, but not for awhile. </blockquote><p>For some reason I misread that last one as "Stooge Aeons", and now that's something I want to see . . . .Mathmuse wrote:Sysryke wrote: UnArcaneElection wrote: Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:{. . .}
I guess i just got so used to killer DM's i build my character with the expectation that my DM is actively trying to kill me.
I haven't had the misfortune to have had one of those yet, but in my first few years of AD&D playing I was introduced to one (fortunately never met in person) via a primitive precursor of social media (yes, such things existed even in the late 1970s). That killer DM (a...UnArcaneElection2023-03-26T06:37:57ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: How many of your games actually go past level 10?TriOmegaZerohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43qwq&page=2?How-many-of-your-games-actually-go-past-level-10#652023-03-25T22:46:10Z2023-03-25T22:46:10Z<p>Let's see, Reign of Winter, Rise of the Runelords, Skull and Shackles, that's three so far. Strange Aeons is likely to make it, but not for awhile.</p>Let's see, Reign of Winter, Rise of the Runelords, Skull and Shackles, that's three so far. Strange Aeons is likely to make it, but not for awhile.TriOmegaZero2023-03-25T22:46:10ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: How many of your games actually go past level 10?Mathmusehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43qwq&page=2?How-many-of-your-games-actually-go-past-level-10#642023-03-26T06:35:38Z2023-03-25T21:09:06Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sysryke wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">UnArcaneElection wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:</div><blockquote><p> {. . .}
</p>
I guess i just got so used to killer DM's i build my character with the expectation that my DM is actively trying to kill me. </blockquote><p>I haven't had the misfortune to have <i>had</i> one of those yet, but in my first few years of AD&D playing I was introduced to one (fortunately never met in person) via a primitive precursor of social media (yes, such things existed even in the late 1970s). That killer DM (a particularly vicious and capricious <i>yet surprisingly popular</i> DM who took joy in tearing up character sheets, and making the players start over with a new 1st level character(•)) was a university professor. I was going to say what they were a professor of, but first, anybody care to take a guess?
<p>(•)I didn't think to ask about the highest level characters got to in that campaign, but for some reason the vicinity of level 8 or so sticks in my head. </blockquote>Based on personal trauma, I would guess physics. But a twisted psychology or literature professor would also seem to fit here. </blockquote><p>I myself used to be a professor of mathematics, and I can still send fear down people's spines with a math lecture. Bwahaha.
<p>But while I was a math professor with toddler children in the house and getting accustomed to a new job in a new city, I lacked the time and contacts to play or run a D&D game (this was back during the D&D 2nd Edition days). </p>
<p>I did not start gamemastering until long after I switched to government work and those children were teenagers. By that time, I had decades of working with customers and youngsters to provide for their needs rather than adhering to a stupid agenda. Nowadays I write custom feats for my players to customize their characters as they want, because our current campaign is Pathfinder 2nd Edition, and that system is not yet as polished as Pathfinder 1st Edition.</p>Sysryke wrote:UnArcaneElection wrote: Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:{. . .}
I guess i just got so used to killer DM's i build my character with the expectation that my DM is actively trying to kill me.
I haven't had the misfortune to have had one of those yet, but in my first few years of AD&D playing I was introduced to one (fortunately never met in person) via a primitive precursor of social media (yes, such things existed even in the late 1970s). That killer DM (a particularly vicious and...Mathmuse2023-03-25T21:09:06ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: How many of your games actually go past level 10?Azothathhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43qwq&page=2?How-many-of-your-games-actually-go-past-level-10#632023-03-25T17:54:29Z2023-03-25T17:30:23Z<p>Advice -
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If a GM rips up character sheets and laughs it's time to move on. That's just bad behavior and socially rude. Hopefully people have learned enough (social) sense and manners to recognize it and act.
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In the early days (AD&D) the game was very GM centric and more liable to personal power trips for GMs and Players. Some of that has passed but this is a TT FRPG.
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Everybody brings their behaviors and outlooks to the table (Bad Behavior isn't limited to GMs). I think several things draw people to FRPGs.</p>
<p>I don't really think bad behavior is exhibited more or constrained by certain lines of education. It's more a matter of ego and trying to exert a sense of personal power and control. Definitely a people problem which education can help but is better addressed through therapy and guided social learning.</p>Advice -
If a GM rips up character sheets and laughs it's time to move on. That's just bad behavior and socially rude. Hopefully people have learned enough (social) sense and manners to recognize it and act.
In the early days (AD&D) the game was very GM centric and more liable to personal power trips for GMs and Players. Some of that has passed but this is a TT FRPG.
Everybody brings their behaviors and outlooks to the table (Bad Behavior isn't limited to GMs). I think several things draw...Azothath2023-03-25T17:30:23ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: How many of your games actually go past level 10?Azothathhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43qwq&page=2?How-many-of-your-games-actually-go-past-level-10#622023-03-25T16:45:42Z2023-03-25T15:49:06Z<p>getting over the Player vs GM mentality is something GMs have to do. It's just part of maturing.</p>
<p>As a GM I don't specifically try to kill any character (that would be rude and personal) but my villains might. It depends on their goals, strategies, tactics, and how much they know.</p>
<p>MOST games go past 10th level... 20th seems to be harder.</p>getting over the Player vs GM mentality is something GMs have to do. It's just part of maturing.
As a GM I don't specifically try to kill any character (that would be rude and personal) but my villains might. It depends on their goals, strategies, tactics, and how much they know.
MOST games go past 10th level... 20th seems to be harder.Azothath2023-03-25T15:49:06ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: How many of your games actually go past level 10?Diego Rossihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43qwq&page=2?How-many-of-your-games-actually-go-past-level-10#612023-03-25T07:49:54Z2023-03-25T07:49:54Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sysryke wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">UnArcaneElection wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:</div><blockquote><p> {. . .}
</p>
I guess i just got so used to killer DM's i build my character with the expectation that my DM is actively trying to kill me. </blockquote><p>I haven't had the misfortune to have <i>had</i> one of those yet, but in my first few years of AD&D playing I was introduced to one (fortunately never met in person) via a primitive precursor of social media (yes, such things existed even in the late 1970s). That killer DM (a particularly vicious and capricious <i>yet surprisingly popular</i> DM who took joy in tearing up character sheets, and making the players start over with a new 1st level character(•)) was a university professor. I was going to say what they were a professor of, but first, anybody care to take a guess?
<p>(•)I didn't think to ask about the highest level characters got to in that campaign, but for some reason the vicinity of level 8 or so sticks in my head.
<br />
</blockquote>Based on personal trauma, I would guess physics. But a twisted psychology or literature professor would also seem to fit here. </blockquote><p>Social sciences?Sysryke wrote:UnArcaneElection wrote: Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:{. . .}
I guess i just got so used to killer DM's i build my character with the expectation that my DM is actively trying to kill me.
I haven't had the misfortune to have had one of those yet, but in my first few years of AD&D playing I was introduced to one (fortunately never met in person) via a primitive precursor of social media (yes, such things existed even in the late 1970s). That killer DM (a particularly vicious and...Diego Rossi2023-03-25T07:49:54ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: How many of your games actually go past level 10?Sysrykehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43qwq&page=2?How-many-of-your-games-actually-go-past-level-10#602023-03-25T07:38:13Z2023-03-25T07:38:13Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">UnArcaneElection wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:</div><blockquote><p> {. . .}
</p>
I guess i just got so used to killer DM's i build my character with the expectation that my DM is actively trying to kill me. </blockquote><p>I haven't had the misfortune to have <i>had</i> one of those yet, but in my first few years of AD&D playing I was introduced to one (fortunately never met in person) via a primitive precursor of social media (yes, such things existed even in the late 1970s). That killer DM (a particularly vicious and capricious <i>yet surprisingly popular</i> DM who took joy in tearing up character sheets, and making the players start over with a new 1st level character(•)) was a university professor. I was going to say what they were a professor of, but first, anybody care to take a guess?
<p>(•)I didn't think to ask about the highest level characters got to in that campaign, but for some reason the vicinity of level 8 or so sticks in my head.
<br />
</blockquote><p>Based on personal trauma, I would guess physics. But a twisted psychology or literature professor would also seem to fit here.UnArcaneElection wrote:Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:{. . .}
I guess i just got so used to killer DM's i build my character with the expectation that my DM is actively trying to kill me.
I haven't had the misfortune to have had one of those yet, but in my first few years of AD&D playing I was introduced to one (fortunately never met in person) via a primitive precursor of social media (yes, such things existed even in the late 1970s). That killer DM (a particularly vicious and capricious yet...Sysryke2023-03-25T07:38:13ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: How many of your games actually go past level 10?Mightypionhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43qwq&page=2?How-many-of-your-games-actually-go-past-level-10#592023-02-25T07:38:13Z2023-02-20T12:48:18Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">magnuskn wrote:</div><blockquote> The secret to GM'ing combats well is to have an ability to lose gracefully. It's not always easy, especially when you had an opponent which you thought would be a real challenge for the party and they manage to take him out like a chump. And that happens more than you would think. </blockquote><p>These are very wise words.
<p>Note that there can be a "blowback" for this. You have 3 things to keep track off:
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1: Was the party luckier then expected on average in a fight? I do check their average rolls after a combat. Its not "scientific" but it gives a rough idea.
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2: Was the party playing "on edge" and "mostly optimally"?
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3: Was the challenge mechanically speaking appropriate?</p>
<p>As a GM, you have zero inlfuence on 1, 100% influence on 3, and a bit but not much influence on 2 (there are out of combat things to remind your party that they could now face professionals).</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>Players, after curbstomping several encounters, especially if it is in a row, will get increasingly reckless in many cases. This decreases their actual combat efficiency.
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Players may also simply get less lucky.
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If both of these combine with a "I increase the difficulty because players just plowed through things before", you can "suddenly shift the difficulty from curbstomp to TPK".</p>magnuskn wrote:The secret to GM'ing combats well is to have an ability to lose gracefully. It's not always easy, especially when you had an opponent which you thought would be a real challenge for the party and they manage to take him out like a chump. And that happens more than you would think.
These are very wise words. Note that there can be a "blowback" for this. You have 3 things to keep track off:
1: Was the party luckier then expected on average in a fight? I do check their average...Mightypion2023-02-20T12:48:18ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: How many of your games actually go past level 10?UnArcaneElectionhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43qwq&page=2?How-many-of-your-games-actually-go-past-level-10#582023-02-20T08:04:23Z2023-02-20T08:01:24Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:</div><blockquote><p> {. . .}
</p>
I guess i just got so used to killer DM's i build my character with the expectation that my DM is actively trying to kill me. </blockquote><p>I haven't had the misfortune to have <i>had</i> one of those yet, but in my first few years of AD&D playing I was introduced to one (fortunately never met in person) via a primitive precursor of social media (yes, such things existed even in the late 1970s). That killer DM (a particularly vicious and capricious <i>yet surprisingly popular</i> DM who took joy in tearing up character sheets, and making the players start over with a new 1st level character(•)) was a university professor. I was going to say what they were a professor of, but first, anybody care to take a guess?
<p>(•)I didn't think to ask about the highest level characters got to in that campaign, but for some reason the vicinity of level 8 or so sticks in my head.</p>Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:{. . .}
I guess i just got so used to killer DM's i build my character with the expectation that my DM is actively trying to kill me.
I haven't had the misfortune to have had one of those yet, but in my first few years of AD&D playing I was introduced to one (fortunately never met in person) via a primitive precursor of social media (yes, such things existed even in the late 1970s). That killer DM (a particularly vicious and capricious yet surprisingly popular DM...UnArcaneElection2023-02-20T08:01:24ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: How many of your games actually go past level 10?Neriathalehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43qwq&page=2?How-many-of-your-games-actually-go-past-level-10#572023-02-19T17:12:57Z2023-02-19T17:12:57Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Redelia wrote:</div><blockquote> The question seems to assume that campaigns don't start at ten or higher. I've had more games I run start above ten than don't make it to ten. The game is at its best from about levels 12 to 17, maybe even higher, so why always play through the awfulness that is low level? </blockquote><p>That's a very subjective view thoughh. My experience with my various groups is that the very low levels (1-3) are OK if you have the right GM, the mid levels (4-14-ish) ae where the fun is, and the "awfulness" is high level play, which is more about bookkeeping than roleplaying. So we tend to end campaigns around level 15.Redelia wrote:The question seems to assume that campaigns don't start at ten or higher. I've had more games I run start above ten than don't make it to ten. The game is at its best from about levels 12 to 17, maybe even higher, so why always play through the awfulness that is low level?
That's a very subjective view thoughh. My experience with my various groups is that the very low levels (1-3) are OK if you have the right GM, the mid levels (4-14-ish) ae where the fun is, and the...Neriathale2023-02-19T17:12:57ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: How many of your games actually go past level 10?Lazlo.Arcadiahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43qwq&page=2?How-many-of-your-games-actually-go-past-level-10#562023-02-19T16:35:46Z2023-02-19T14:20:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mikemad wrote:</div><blockquote> And if so, how far? Just a thought that popped into my head while looking into something totally unrelated and I wanted to gather a bit of data. </blockquote><p>I tend to play in low magic / lower level campaigns personally. As such I can't remember a time when I played a character higher than level 13, and more commonly not past level 10 or 11.Mikemad wrote:And if so, how far? Just a thought that popped into my head while looking into something totally unrelated and I wanted to gather a bit of data.
I tend to play in low magic / lower level campaigns personally. As such I can't remember a time when I played a character higher than level 13, and more commonly not past level 10 or 11.Lazlo.Arcadia2023-02-19T14:20:47ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: How many of your games actually go past level 10?Redeliahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43qwq&page=2?How-many-of-your-games-actually-go-past-level-10#552023-02-08T13:59:20Z2023-02-08T13:59:20Z<p>The question seems to assume that campaigns don't start at ten or higher. I've had more games I run start above ten than don't make it to ten. The game is at its best from about levels 12 to 17, maybe even higher, so why always play through the awfulness that is low level?</p>The question seems to assume that campaigns don't start at ten or higher. I've had more games I run start above ten than don't make it to ten. The game is at its best from about levels 12 to 17, maybe even higher, so why always play through the awfulness that is low level?Redelia2023-02-08T13:59:20ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: How many of your games actually go past level 10?magnusknhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43qwq&page=2?How-many-of-your-games-actually-go-past-level-10#542023-03-25T07:32:14Z2023-02-08T08:47:03Z<p>The secret to GM'ing combats well is to have an ability to lose gracefully. It's not always easy, especially when you had an opponent which you thought would be a real challenge for the party and they manage to take him out like a chump. And that happens more than you would think.</p>The secret to GM'ing combats well is to have an ability to lose gracefully. It's not always easy, especially when you had an opponent which you thought would be a real challenge for the party and they manage to take him out like a chump. And that happens more than you would think.magnuskn2023-02-08T08:47:03ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: How many of your games actually go past level 10?Tarik Blackhands (alias of ItsTheName)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43qwq&page=2?How-many-of-your-games-actually-go-past-level-10#532023-02-07T17:56:13Z2023-02-07T17:56:13Z<p>The thing that always gets me about GM v Player mentality is that the whole thing just doesn't work on a premise level.</p>
<p>The GM wins. Every time. Players have finite resources to do their builds and twist and munchkin as you may, you're never going to beat the guy who has infinite resources if he actually did decide he wants "win" the whole charade, that's the whole joke behind "rocks fall, everyone dies".</p>
<p>Every GM wants you to succeed, with varying degrees of ease on the player side. If they wanted players to die, they'd be dead.</p>The thing that always gets me about GM v Player mentality is that the whole thing just doesn't work on a premise level.
The GM wins. Every time. Players have finite resources to do their builds and twist and munchkin as you may, you're never going to beat the guy who has infinite resources if he actually did decide he wants "win" the whole charade, that's the whole joke behind "rocks fall, everyone dies".
Every GM wants you to succeed, with varying degrees of ease on the player side. If...Tarik Blackhands (alias of ItsTheName)2023-02-07T17:56:13ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: How many of your games actually go past level 10?DeathlessOnehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43qwq&page=2?How-many-of-your-games-actually-go-past-level-10#522023-02-07T16:22:23Z2023-02-07T16:20:45Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:</div><blockquote> It's actually "do what is fun for everyone" that is right. If everyone likes GM vs player, that is the correct thing to do. </blockquote><p>Until you hear the masses come and complain about it later. I've seen them come in waves over my decades (yeah, its plural now) of gaming. It also muddies the community pool where many of us draw new players, and we have to spend effort and a great deal of time deconstructing what expectations have already been built up.
<p>I cannot tell you the number of times I'd told a player that they have no need to inflate their attack and damage rolls that high, or to spend all their feats and wealth on maximizing their AC, saves, and combat potential. Its hard for most of them to understand that I am not an adversary to their characters. I actively WANT them to succeed and am just here to make it a challenge in order for their actions and choices to have some sort of meaning. There is a real risk of failure, even if it is still heavily weighted in their favor. The most interesting thing is, nearly every time I am able to convince the player that that kind of arms race is not necessary, I can almost visibly see them relax MORE into the game.</p>
<p>Sure, play the game how you would like. Just try not to think the system operates in a vacuum. Everything we do bleeds over into other areas, and other tables.</p>Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:It's actually "do what is fun for everyone" that is right. If everyone likes GM vs player, that is the correct thing to do.
Until you hear the masses come and complain about it later. I've seen them come in waves over my decades (yeah, its plural now) of gaming. It also muddies the community pool where many of us draw new players, and we have to spend effort and a great deal of time deconstructing what expectations have already been built up. I cannot tell you the number...DeathlessOne2023-02-07T16:20:45ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: How many of your games actually go past level 10?Bjørn Røyrvikhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43qwq&page=2?How-many-of-your-games-actually-go-past-level-10#512023-02-07T11:22:32Z2023-02-07T06:35:46Z<p>It's actually "do what is fun for everyone" that is right. If everyone likes GM vs player, that is the correct thing to do.</p>It's actually "do what is fun for everyone" that is right. If everyone likes GM vs player, that is the correct thing to do.Bjørn Røyrvik2023-02-07T06:35:46Z