I think this is just semantics. Would "revise" work better? "Reshape?" "Revamp?" I think Mysterious Stranger's point still stands.The point of Pathfinder Unchained was to fix things that were so bad they needed a complete rework of the class. {. . .}I wouldn't call the Pathfinder Unchained classes complete reworks
Much of the Unchained Rogue class table still looks the same as the pre-Unchained Rogue class table, and much of the basic class description is similar, so I would call this an evolutionary upgrade rather than a complete rework. Now, it's a GOOD upgrade, but still evolutionary.
If you want an example of something more closely approaching a complete rework, the enormous change from Pathfinder 1st Edition to 2nd Edition is the prime example.
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Just realized I had been leaving out a whole bunch of stuff I would like to see get the Unchained treatment: VMC for all of the classes that don't have it. The quality of VMC as it is turned out to be really uneven (and so needs a rework), but the idea was sound.
All martial classes that do not have any spell casting should have 6+Int skill points.
I'd settle for 4+Int.
Fighters should have Perception as a class skill.
THIS! I swear, all of your townguards are blind...
Fighters should get a bonus to their will saves that is doubled vs fear effects.
Better: add your character level to Will save against fear effects.
One huge problem with the Fighter is how Weapon and Armor Training got huge buffs in late P1E... and those are always replaced when archetypes are used. They would need to rewrite EVETY archetype to change Weapon Training / Armor Training replacement with bonus feat replacement.
Seriously, they receive TONS of feats, so surely they can trade some of them for specific abilities.
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One huge problem with the Fighter is how Weapon and Armor Training got huge buffs in late P1E... and those are always replaced when archetypes are used. They would need to rewrite EVETY archetype to change Weapon Training / Armor Training replacement with bonus feat replacement.
Seriously, they receive TONS of feats, so surely they can trade some of them for specific abilities.
Several of them can still get by with replacing weapon &/or armor training… but all of the specific weapon training look-a-likes need to actually count as weapon training, and some abilities should be merged into one replacement for 1 tier of weapon/armor training since they should all be balanced against options you can get from advanced trainings… if they are not equivalent to an advanced training either replace a bonus feat or combine with another weak replacement until they are equivalent.
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Several of them can still get by with replacing weapon &/or armor training… but all of the specific weapon training look-a-likes need to actually count as weapon training, and some abilities should be merged into one replacement for 1 tier of weapon/armor training since they should all be balanced against options you can get from advanced trainings… if they are not equivalent to an advanced training either replace a bonus feat or combine with another weak replacement until they are equivalent.One huge problem with the Fighter is how Weapon and Armor Training got huge buffs in late P1E... and those are always replaced when archetypes are used. They would need to rewrite EVETY archetype to change Weapon Training / Armor Training replacement with bonus feat replacement.
Seriously, they receive TONS of feats, so surely they can trade some of them for specific abilities.
I think 25% of the Fighter's archetypes either leave Training intact or simply limit it to a specific weapon group. The rest outright replaces them completely. Like I said, the Fighter received a BUNCH of bonus feats, why weren't THESE replaced?
You want to know what's more irritating? You CANNOT get Training back with bonus Fighter feats, which would have been a huge bonus for them.
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Several of them can still get by with replacing weapon &/or armor training… but all of the specific weapon training look-a-likes need to actually count as weapon training, and some abilities should be merged into one replacement for 1 tier of weapon/armor training since they should all be balanced against options you can get from advanced trainings… if they are not equivalent to an advanced training either replace a bonus feat or combine with another weak replacement until they are equivalent.One huge problem with the Fighter is how Weapon and Armor Training got huge buffs in late P1E... and those are always replaced when archetypes are used. They would need to rewrite EVETY archetype to change Weapon Training / Armor Training replacement with bonus feat replacement.
Seriously, they receive TONS of feats, so surely they can trade some of them for specific abilities.
I think 25% of the Fighter's archetypes either leave Training intact or simply limit it to a specific weapon group. The rest outright replaces them completely. Like I said, the Fighter received a BUNCH of bonus feats, why weren't THESE replaced?
You want to know what's more irritating? You CANNOT get Training back with bonus Fighter feats, which would have been a huge bonus for them.
What ai find most irritating is the fact that most of the ones that replace Weapon Training with a more specific version of weapon training don’t actually count as having weapon training… since as per an FAQ only the ones that say “as the fighters weapon training” or “must select X for the weapon training class feature” still count as having weapon training… the ones that completely restate the rules for weapon training don’t, and its stupid.
What ai find most irritating is the fact that most of the ones that replace Weapon Training with a more specific version of weapon training don’t actually count as having weapon training… since as per an FAQ only the ones that say “as the fighters weapon training” or “must select X for the weapon training class feature” still count as having weapon training… the ones that completely restate the rules for weapon training don’t, and its stupid.Several of them can still get by with replacing weapon &/or armor training… but all of the specific weapon training look-a-likes need to actually count as weapon training, and some abilities should be merged into one replacement for 1 tier of weapon/armor training since they should all be balanced against options you can get from advanced trainings… if they are not equivalent to an advanced training either replace a bonus feat or combine with another weak replacement until they are equivalent.One huge problem with the Fighter is how Weapon and Armor Training got huge buffs in late P1E... and those are always replaced when archetypes are used. They would need to rewrite EVETY archetype to change Weapon Training / Armor Training replacement with bonus feat replacement.
Seriously, they receive TONS of feats, so surely they can trade some of them for specific abilities.
I think 25% of the Fighter's archetypes either leave Training intact or simply limit it to a specific weapon group. The rest outright replaces them completely. Like I said, the Fighter received a BUNCH of bonus feats, why weren't THESE replaced?
You want to know what's more irritating? You CANNOT get Training back with bonus Fighter feats, which would have been a huge bonus for them.
If it alters, you're good.
If it replaces, you're screwed.Hence why I hate how you cannot use your 1,001 bonus feats to get Weapon/Armor Training back...
Hence why I hate how you cannot use your 1,001 bonus feats to get Weapon/Armor Training back...
It's complicated. There are a lot of non-fighter options that get bonus feats as a fighter or count as a fighter for prerequisites.
Hence why I hate how you cannot use your 1,001 bonus feats to get Weapon/Armor Training back...It's complicated. There are a lot of non-fighter options that get bonus feats as a fighter or count as a fighter for prerequisites.
EXCEPT getting back Weapon/Armor Training if you ever trade it for 99% of the archetypes.
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EXCEPT getting back Weapon/Armor Training if you ever trade it for 99% of the archetypes.Hence why I hate how you cannot use your 1,001 bonus feats to get Weapon/Armor Training back...It's complicated. There are a lot of non-fighter options that get bonus feats as a fighter or count as a fighter for prerequisites.
What I'm saying is that it's hard to word a feat in such a way as to not make such a feat available to a lot of classes you don't want having access to it. It's easier/safer to err on the side of less accessibility than more accessibility.
There's also an issue with weapon training 1 already being stronger than most feats.
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Also, fighter is not the only one that has to deal with "this feature is the same but not really". Its why a lot of the later archetypes specifically say "this counts as the original feature".
Honestly the FAQ should have just ruled that they are the same feature… clearly they felt it should be with later archetypes…
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^Even so, Fighter archetypes that don't have their Weapon Training replacement count as Weapon Training or at least leave a subset of levels of Weapon Training are generally trash. A prime example of this is Archer, which is an archetype that was released early. The only exception that comes to mind is the Martial Master, whose replacement for Weapon Training doesn't count as Weapon Training but has enough of its own virtue to be worth considering.
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The biggest boons, IMO, for Weapon Training are Armed Bravery, Defensive Weapon Training, Effortless Dual-Wielding, Fighter's Reflexes, Focused Weapon, Trained Initiative and Versatile Training.
46 archetypes do something to Weapon Training, while 22 don't.
Like I said, if your archetype alters Weapon Training to limit it to specific weapons, like Dragoon, Spear Fighter and Tribal Fighter, but if it downright replaces it, you cannot access the advanced training options.
Thank goodness the Unarmed Fighter can get Weapon Training (limited to monk and natural weapons)... and get Focused Weapon (Unarmed).
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Not related to unchained but would have been nice to get a complete hardcover book full archetypes both new and redone older ones to fix a lot of these issues.
It's a shame we never got an Pathfinder Unchained 2 or even a pocket version of the first one.
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The problem with doing more Unchained is it's hard to tell when to stop. And honestly, some of the unchained could use some unchained. Unchained Monk's flying kick doesn't really benefit from being tied specifically to kicks. Why not flying punches or even flying headbutts? Unchained eidolons should have never had their forms tied to their subtypes, and natural attack evolutions definitely shouldn't have been tied to subtypes.
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Unchained Monk's Flying Kick is awesome.
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Just to keep the conversation moving, this is the level 1 abilities that I grant to Fighters in my personal "unchained" remake of the class.
** spoiler omitted **
Go For the Eyes (Ex):
At 1st level the Fighter can spend a move action to steady their aim and pick out an exposed soft location, armored seem, or joint that they can strike. The next attack the fighter attempts until the end of their next turn targets touch AC. When using this ability with a Ranged attack the target must be within the first range increment.
In practice, it is "Attack touch armor class 90% of the time for the first 5 fighter levels".
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If there was an unchained Shaman, I would want it to be a Cha based spontaneous caster with the druid spell list and have totems(their bloodlines/mysteries) such as animal spirits, ancestors, dragons, fey, elementals, etc.
I'd like for the Shaman to get an unchained 'redo'. Dont get me wrong, the shaman is a powerful class, but the majority of their spirit hexes are worthless. I'd like to see this particular class feature redesigned, or even replaced with something a little more useful - even if it doesnt directly contribute to the class' overall power.
Personally I find Shaman spirit hexes to be some of their better hex choices… heck… Shaman hexes in general are really good… Witch kinda gets the short stick when it comes to Hexes…
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I'd like for the Shaman to get an unchained 'redo'. Dont get me wrong, the shaman is a powerful class, but the majority of their spirit hexes are worthless. I'd like to see this particular class feature redesigned, or even replaced with something a little more useful - even if it doesnt directly contribute to the class' overall power.Personally I find Shaman spirit hexes to be some of their better hex choices… heck… Shaman hexes in general are really good… Witch kinda gets the short stick when it comes to Hexes…
... I disagree with this too much. Are you being sarcastic?
The shaman spirit hexes are all over the place, with most of them being nearly worthless or downgrades of existing witch hexes or oracle revelations. But a handful of spirit hexes are confusingly overpowered. This is terrible, because it makes some spirits almost required and others never touched.
Yeah, as someone who has played (and loved) a witch, I recently made a shaman and was pretty disappointed with the available hexes. I ended up picking thematic "cool" ones because the effective ones were few and far between.
Buuuuuut, the shaman has advantages that the witch doesn't have, so I also feel like it balances out.
I do like the Witch hexes but yeah a lot the Shaman ones are lacking. I had always felt the ACG had many design issues with many of it's classes.
Witch Hexes look excellent to me . . . if you want to be a nasty Witch. The Hexes for a Witch who wants to be helpful are on the sparse side, although that's by way of comparison to the ones that support being nasty, and still seems a long way better than the last time I looked at what was available to 2nd Edition.
Being less conversant in 2nd Edition, I would be willing to admit that maybe I just haven't been looking at 2nd Edition Witch the right way . . . except that several other people have said something similar. And not all of the 2nd Edition classes seem equally lacking, although on the other hand, I did have some trouble developing a full understanding of certain particular 1st Edition classes, which leads me to . . .
Classes that could have used a clarity rewrite:
- •Magus (even though it is at the top of my list of favorite classes, and even though it probably needs to be toned down a smidge);
•Shaman;
•Kineticist (also needs to be toned down in power, but in exchange needs to have the Burn mechanic made less onerous);
•Psychic
And not so much a clarity rewrite as a reorganization: Sorcerer and Bloodrager (as posted above, but to summarize, the most annoying aspect is the sheer lack of correspondence between a lot of the Bloodlines, although I won't deny that a couple of tweaks to the actual classes themselves are in order).
Kineticist is fine the way it is....well maybe a better burn mechanic that uses points like ki or just gives you a penalty to all Str/Dex based skill and ability checks(except Initiative).
Personally the Sorcerer should have gotten it's bonus bloodline spells right when you gain spells of that level.
Yeah Shaman is a mess.
Kineticist is all over the place. It’s ranged damage is too low. It’s blade damage is a little too high. But the damage added to weapons and unarmed strikes is too low.
And yeah, burn is just a bad mechanic. It’s too much math and not enough fun. It would have been better as a standard pool ability like ki.
Shaman mostly just needs a second pass of its hexes. Bring them more in line with witch and oracle similar abilities. And probably nerf the lore hex that everyone wants as wandering. A lot of the spirit powers are also underwhelming, in general. Healing is about the only spirit with a decent spirit ability.
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No, the Shaman is a mess, should have been the spontaneous Cha based Druid caster with totems(ancestors, animals, spirits, etc.).
I do plenty of damage with my kineticist at range though yeah they are very strong in melee with kinetic blade/whip.