A few questions about Fighters


Advice


Guys, I'm new to Pathfinder, we're playing 2e and I'm playing a Fighter with a bastard sword modeled after a doppelsöldner. The rules in this game are tight, you can grab someone and use Dazing Blow to mordschlag their skull in and stun them, that's so rad.

Do you recommend Dragging Strike/Brutish Shove? It seems really good for leaving people prone and pushing or pulling them away to make them waste actions with an AoO. My level 2 Fighter feat is between that and Intimidating Strike but that gets better with other feats, am I doing it right? Making people waste actions with it seems really fun.

I wanna go Intimidate, I know they nerfed the s+#$ out of Demoralize from the playbook (and they also made Combat Grab level 2 so you can't get it with Natural Ambition now) but it's still dope as hell to shred people's AC by making them s!!@ their pants.

Fighter is so fun but it has so much stuff I want. At level 4 I wanna get Quick Reversal to run into enemy formations in order to get myself flanked to set it up. Seriously, that sounds so stupidly awesome.

I know I can't get Terrifying Resistance or Intimidating Prowess until Expert, which happens at level 3, so I was wondering about the in-between for general/skill feats. I have Toughness and Fleet for reasons.

Thank you so much for any input you might have, I'm enjoying it a lot but I have no frame of reference compared to 1e.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Faemeister wrote:
It seems really good for leaving people prone and pushing or pulling them away to make them waste actions with an AoO. My level 2 Fighter feat is between that and Intimidating Strike but that gets better with other feats, am I doing it right? Making people waste actions with it seems really fun.

That is a fantastic way of thinking of it. Attacking the enemy's HP is great. But attacking the enemy's actions and effectiveness is also great. And doing both will be a better use of your own actions than attacking with high Multiple Attack Penalty will be.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Faemeister wrote:

Guys, I'm new to Pathfinder, we're playing 2e and I'm playing a Fighter with a bastard sword modeled after a doppelsöldner. The rules in this game are tight, you can grab someone and use Dazing Blow to mordschlag their skull in and stun them, that's so rad.

Do you recommend Dragging Strike/Brutish Shove? It seems really good for leaving people prone and pushing or pulling them away to make them waste actions with an AoO. My level 2 Fighter feat is between that and Intimidating Strike but that gets better with other feats, am I doing it right? Making people waste actions with it seems really fun.

I wanna go Intimidate, I know they nerfed the s&%* out of Demoralize from the playbook (and they also made Combat Grab level 2 so you can't get it with Natural Ambition now) but it's still dope as hell to shred people's AC by making them s*#& their pants.

Fighter is so fun but it has so much stuff I want. At level 4 I wanna get Quick Reversal to run into enemy formations in order to get myself flanked to set it up. Seriously, that sounds so stupidly awesome.

I know I can't get Terrifying Resistance or Intimidating Prowess until Expert, which happens at level 3, so I was wondering about the in-between for general/skill feats. I have Toughness and Fleet for reasons.

Thank you so much for any input you might have, I'm enjoying it a lot but I have no frame of reference compared to 1e.

Dazing Blow sounds cool on its surface, until you realize that it's a Press ability (which requires you to have performed an Attack action first), and that they get a Fortitude Save with Incapacitation (which means it's not very effective except against lower level enemies that aren't very...well...fortuitous). Having seen this try to be used in actual play, it hasn't been very successful against threatening enemies, and when used against less threatening enemies, a couple strikes was far more efficient in nullifying them, since the lower AC means it's easier to Hit/Crit them with subsequent strikes.

Brutish Shove isn't bad if you're running a Reach weapon with Shove (I'm not sure there is any off the top of my head, but if so, it's solid), since then you can force AoOs from enemies. Dragging Strike I'm not so familiar with, but it sounds like it's used for repositioning, which can be helpful for saving allies actions to get into positioning, but often is for when you need an additional step or so when it really shines. Intimidating Strike is solid as well for debuffing the enemy, bonus points if you pair it with the Intimidate skill in general, since then you have another source of inflicting the Frightened condition to enemies.

Demoralize as an action is still very solid debuffing. 1 Action to inflict up to a -2 in all checks and DCs is no laughing matter, and makes the difference between a hit or a crit, and it's a far better use for a 3rd action compared to a Strike at -10. Bonus points if you have an ally use Bon Mot (another 1 Action ability) to make your Intimidate checks far more potent against a given target. What was nerfed was Scare to Death, which is a Legendary Skill Feat, since Paizo felt it was "too easy" of an ability to kill with as it was. It by no means makes Demoralize a bad activity to do.

Quick Reversal isn't bad if you're dealing with more enemies than you can handle, and they utilize smart tactics, but there are better options that are good across more situations. There's Knockdown, where you get a free Trip check after a successful Strike, which segues into Improved Knockdown, which gives an auto-trip on a successful Strike (with bonuses on a Critical Hit). There's Dual-Handed Assault, which lets you effectively wield a Bastard Sword two-handed in one hand for an attack (so if you need to heal with a potion or some other activity requiring a free hand, it is there). Plenty of awesome options.

Intimidating Prowess is awesome for boosting your Intimidate in certain situations, as well as providing another means to ignore needing a language to Demoralize enemies. Terrifying Resistance is okay, there aren't a whole lot of enemies that you can benefit from in this fashion. Otherwise, look at Intimidating Glare to start out, or Quick Jump. Plenty of other options depending on what you want to do.


breithauptclan wrote:
That is a fantastic way of thinking of it. Attacking the enemy's HP is great. But attacking the enemy's actions and effectiveness is also great. And doing both will be a better use of your own actions than attacking with high Multiple Attack Penalty will be.

That's good to hear, because while the Fighter seems pretty amazing at layin' on the hurt due to their higher weapon expertise it'd feel like a waste to do nothing but attack with all the options one has in combat. I usually play frontline for our group so helping control the pace of a fight like that seems really high value at a glance.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
<snip>

I appreciate going in-depth with different feats, it definitely feels like I'm spoiled for choices but at the end of the day having several worthwhile options is a great feeling. I know about Shove/Dragging being Press which means ideally you want some sort of back-up or a different action to round up your turn, but from an action economy perspective it sounds like a pretty sweet deal... This only works against targets your size, but you get to attack someone, reposition them out of your friends' reach AND move after them afterwards? Feats like that and, as you say, Knockdown, look interesting for manipulating foes and forcing them to stick to you even on a two-handed weapon build. As for the grip thing, I'm not sweating it too much since I know dropping a hand from your weapon is a free action and adding a hand to your grip is one action, so you can reasonably switch back and forth as needed without wasting too much time.

Noted on everything else; Bon Mot seems really strong, enough that I'd at least consider it for this kind or character. Strangely enough I'll probably end up being the party face, so even something like Quick Coercion might be cool to snipe people out of fights before they happen. I'd have thought Terrifying Defense would be pretty good since it helps shore up what seems like one of the class' weaknesses and hopefully I'm gonna spend a lot of time frightening enemies. I'll probably take Quick Reversal regardless (or maybe Swipe? Cleaving is so fun) to test it out, since I'm pretty enamoured with the idea of willingly putting yourself in a flank just to be able to use one of your more dangerous techniques. It's so stupid but it fits the "high-risk, double pay" concept of an elite zweihander mercenary to a T.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Brutish Shove isn't bad if you're running a Reach weapon with Shove (I'm not sure there is any off the top of my head, but if so, it's solid), since then you can force AoOs from enemies.

The boarding pike is reach+shove; for a more esoteric option a leshy can take the Grasping Reach feat to turn the Maul into a 1d10 reach shove weapon with the hammer crit spec, which is crazy.

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.

From what I've seen in action (up to level 16 looking at the fighter in our campaign) and my own fighter (level 5) in PFS;

* Snagging Strike is better than it looks. It can be used on your first attack and can make all the other attacks in your turn easier.

* Combat Grab is pretty good. It's a Press so it can't be your first attack, and the effect doesn't stack with Snagging Strike. But the effect is better than Snagging Strike because if the enemy doesn't try to get out, the grabbed condition will last until the END of your next turn. Also, not being able to move away from you is very bad for some enemies like archers and casters. Also consider that if the enemy is prone for some reason, being grabbed (the immobilized condition) stops them from standing up unless they first Escape from your grab. So it really keeps them put.

They turn out to combine really well. First attack is a snagging strike which has a good chance of setting up a combat grab. Once the combat grab happens, it becomes even easier for the rest of the party to pile on.

* Intimidating Strike is pretty decent too. Unlike Demoralize, it can be used multiple times on the same enemy. And as a fighter your to-hit is perhaps higher than your Intimidate. Also if there's a rogue in your party with Dread Striker, they'll love you for this.

All of these feats basically make your fighter into a kind of tin-can opener for the rest of your party. You with your high to-hit make the first dent in the enemy and make it easier for the rest of the party to get their cuts in afterwards.


I get what you're putting down about crushing defenses for your party, with the critical sword specialization effect for example you can shred an enemy's AC, especially if you're combining it with a Frightened value. That left me to wonder further about weapons, though, since I've been looking at weapon property runes and there's a lot to take in. Frost seems really strong at first but the DC to slow doesn't scale and by the time you're level 8, adventurers have at least a +10 to Fortitude saves just by virtue of existing. There's also the Frightening rune (Frightened 1 on critical), which to an extent makes you less reliant on Intimidating Strike if you can't set up a good Demoralize.
But maybe a property rune is worth more than a class feat, I can't be sure without playing the game a bit more.

On another note and kind of unrelated, but something I forgot to ask nonetheless: are physical resistances important in general? Bastard swords, which I'm using, have the Versatile (Piercing) trait so I'm wondering if it makes sense, mechanically, to find a way to deal bludgeoning damage to cave skulls in with your weapon's pommel, like I mentioned earlier. It makes for a great image mentally and I definitely want to play with the unique ''complete mastery over the chosen weapon'' angle Fighters get, so mostly I'm just wondering if it's ever going to come up. I know skeletons have bludgeoning DR, but I don't wanna spoil myself looking at the bestiary so soon.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The elemental property runes are pretty popular because it's extra damage. The side effects are just a ribbon on top of that, and yeah they don't age well at higher levels.

Personally I prefer the Holy rune over elemental runes because Good damage is pretty good. While it won't work on neutral or good enemies, half the time you're not supposed to fight those anyway. For example some big animal, you could fight it, but you could also just lure it away with some food. (I play the occasional tree-hugging druid.) The enemies that you HAVE to fight are very often evil. So overall, good damage works quite well.

Physical resistances happen quite a bit. Also weaknesses to a particular type of physical damage. So some versatility is nice. But unfortunately, they're not all equal.

* Some monsters like oozes should not be fought with piercing or slashing damage because that makes the situation worse.
* Resistance to piercing and slashing, but not bludgeoning, is pretty common among "hard matter" monsters like skeletons and golems.
* Weakness to slashing happens on some plant monsters. Or they have some tentacle that you need to cut free from which needs slashing.
* Sometimes you need piercing or slashing damage, to cut your way out of a swallowed-whole situation.
* As far as I know, only one somewhat rare species of creature particularly wants piercing damage to fight them.

So weapons with versatile piercing/slashing, I consider that to be a bit of a dud ability. Versatile bludgeoning/slashing on the other hand is very nice to have.

Overall I consider piercing to be a minor downside on a weapon, but it just comes with certain kinds of weapons. Very many ranged weapons are piercing for example, as well as lots of fencing kinda weapons for more light and nimble fighting styles.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Brutish Shove isn't bad if you're running a Reach weapon with Shove (I'm not sure there is any off the top of my head, but if so, it's solid), since then you can force AoOs from enemies.
The boarding pike is reach+shove; for a more esoteric option a leshy can take the Grasping Reach feat to turn the Maul into a 1d10 reach shove weapon with the hammer crit spec, which is crazy.

Treasure Vault adds the Bec de corbin which also has reach and shove.


I was operating under the assumption Brutish Shove doesn't require the weapon to have the Shove trait.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
egindar wrote:
I was operating under the assumption Brutish Shove doesn't require the weapon to have the Shove trait.

I would also expect that to be the case due to a specific override of the general rule.

Shove requires a hand free.

Brutish shove instead requires wielding a 2-handed melee weapon. (a 1-handed melee weapon held in two hands might also qualify, but check with GM first.)

If the intent is that Brutish Shove only works with 2-handed melee weapons that have the Shove trait, then it should have specified that in its requirements.


From the description of the feat I would concur: You can use Brutish Shove with any two-handed weapon.


egindar wrote:
I was operating under the assumption Brutish Shove doesn't require the weapon to have the Shove trait.

The Shove trait allows you to add the weapon's item bonus to attack rolls as an item bonus to the Athletics check. So if you have a a +2 potency rune on a boarding pike and make a Brutish Shove, you roll a +2 vs making the attack with a +2 potency rune on a great axe. It'll also allow a shove if you haven't already a MAP penalty.


There isn't a separate roll for Brutish Shove; you automatically Shove using the result of your Strike. So, if you Critically Succeed on the Strike, the Shove gains the Critical Success effect as well.


ottdmk wrote:
There isn't a separate roll for Brutish Shove; you automatically Shove using the result of your Strike. So, if you Critically Succeed on the Strike, the Shove gains the Critical Success effect as well.

Ah, ok. Read that wrong.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Advice / A few questions about Fighters All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.