I tend to archetype in a different way, like a caster: Psychic can give you access to a nice cantrip you can boost with focus for an a will and some burst damage: the fact that you can poach the feat that allows innate cantrips to work off of int is just frosting on the cake IMO.
One strength of this build (compared to other Alchemist's builds) is that besides the Familiar at level 1 and Merciful Elixirs at high level, there's nothing you really need to get your character working. So you can tailor it the way you like.
I'm iffy on the combat force drinking so I'd most likely pass them out and people could drink them before moving into combat when possible. I'd lean into battle medicine for in combat healing myself.
In my opinion, without this rule, you just can't play a Chirurgeon. The whole Research Field is based on feeding allies with Elixirs.
Really depends on the DM and the module/game you're playing.
Obviously. But DMs rarely create monsters, so the only case where AoOs will be a problem is if the enemies try to shut you down with them by moving next to you. Normally, you should rarely put yourself in harm's way.
You have the Spiderthing Collar to get it for free at the beginning of an encounter. And at level 11, it lasts 1 hour.1/2 an hour with the collar [cuts the duration in 1/2].
It's an or for me. Either you use it for an hour or you use the Collar and then you don't care of the duration because it's higher than a fight.
I want to try this out, so I'll create one for PFS. I certainly won't reach high levels, but I think it should work fine, still.
I'll go for:
Doktor Krankenweg
Razortooth Goblin Chirurgeon
Str 16 Dex 14 Con 12 Wis 10 Int 16 Cha 10
Feats:
1: Alchemical Familiar, Fang Sharpener
2: Fighter Dedication
3: Heavy Armor Proficiency
4: Opportunist
5: Goblin Scuttle
6: Fighter Resiliency or Power Attack
7: Fleet
8: Sentinel Dedication, retrain Heavy Armor Proficiency for Toughness
9: Skittering Scuttle
Equipment: Poisoned Guisarme, Full Plate.
So I'll control a massive area with my 15ft. of reach and AoO. I'll drop my Guisarme when I need to heal. And thanks to the Full Plate, I should be fine taking hits. Outside healing, I'll use my Alchemical Items mostly on Poison (both for me and my allies) and a little bit of versatility with Reagents for Quick Alchemy.
I think it should work fine. My fighting efficiency will drop at higher level but my healing one should increase greatly. There's just the issue of level 7-11 where my Proficiency with the Guisarme will be bad. I may use a Horsechopper during these levels.
Obviously. But DMs rarely create monsters, so the only case where AoOs will be a problem is if the enemies try to shut you down with them by moving next to you. Normally, you should rarely put yourself in harm's way.
I was more thinking about positioning and terrain/room design: sometimes there isn't enough room or space to get out of reach and some games/DM's tend to have this more often.
In my opinion, without this rule, you just can't play a Chirurgeon. The whole Research Field is based on feeding allies with Elixirs.
I never really saw it that way, as it's fairly untenable without some hoop jumping: needing 3 feats and 4th level to really start seems bad to me. At the same feats and 4th level I can toss healing bombs from a distance and battle medicine up close [and use doctor's visitation].
In my opinion, without this rule, you just can't play a Chirurgeon. The whole Research Field is based on feeding allies with Elixirs.I never really saw it that way, as it's fairly untenable without some hoop jumping: needing 3 feats and 4th level to really start seems bad to me. At the same feats and 4th level I can toss healing bombs from a distance and battle medicine up close [and use doctor's visitation].
It was not easily possible in the past, I agree. But the Research Field is based on feeding allies with Elixirs (of Life, mostly). If you don't, then other Research Fields should end up more appropriate.
But the Research Field is based on feeding allies with Elixirs (of Life, mostly).
I'll agree to disagree. I never saw feeding as an intended requirement.
But the Research Field is based on feeding allies with Elixirs (of Life, mostly).I'll agree to disagree. I never saw feeding as an intended requirement.
Feeding Elixirs to allies during combat is definitely a base of the Chirurgeon. To avoid it you'll have to forget about some class abilities, at least the Greater Field Discovery. And also all the Elixir of Life-based feats, like Merciful Elixir or Combine Elixirs.
Now, you play your character the way you want. On that I agree.
But the Research Field is based on feeding allies with Elixirs (of Life, mostly).I'll agree to disagree. I never saw feeding as an intended requirement.Feeding Elixirs to allies during combat is definitely a base of the Chirurgeon. To avoid it you'll have to forget about some class abilities, at least the Greater Field Discovery. And also all the Elixir of Life-based feats, like Merciful Elixir or Combine Elixirs.
Now, you play your character the way you want. On that I agree.
Nothing prevent you making an elixir and someone else drinking it [ie, the target spends the action to drink it]. Or tossing it as a bomb. 1/2 of merciful works by passing off one [only paralysis requires feeding]. This is especially true with Enduring Alchemy. Does it work great? No, but a lot of the class didn't work that great a the beginning.
|
I'm sorry Leo, but that's just wrong. First, Witch Dedication asks for Intelligence, so it's actually an asset for the Alchemist who can easily grab it. Second, Spirit Link is just plain bad and there's no way I'll put that on my higher level spell slots.
It's a nice combo on paper, but it doesn't leave the paper.
I can understand the doubt, but, having used the build several times, I can attest to its efficacy.
I am curious what you dislike about Spirit Link.
But I don't think the difference is that big that you make it look, SanityFaerie. First because level 15 Elixirs of Life heal 8d6+21 (but still the Elixir of Life progression is buggy so there are moments where it's behind anyway).
*goes back to look*
You're totally right. That's my error, and I apologize for it. I think I must have seen that it was jumping once per four levels up to 13, and just assumed that it would continue the pattern.
I don't think it undermines my conclusions entirely, but I won't pretend that it's not a meaningful counterargument.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am curious what you dislike about Spirit Link.
It costs 2 actions, a spell slot and your hit points for an effect equivalent to Life Boost. And even if Life Boost is definitely one of the best focus spell in the game, Spirit Link is so far behind I can't consider it.
The only advantage is that you can prebuff with it, but on a prepared caster it's too random to prepare one.I can understand the doubt, but, having used the build several times, I can attest to its efficacy.
But you used it with a Witch, not with a Cleric? With a Cleric, getting the 14 in Intelligence is very expensive.
I don't think it undermines my conclusions entirely, but I won't pretend that it's not a meaningful counterargument.
Definitely not. I also decided that you were right with the Cleric being better at healing. I've revised my position (I was a bit too enthusiastic, I got carried away).
Nothing prevent you making an elixir and someone else drinking it [ie, the target spends the action to drink it].
It costs one action from you, 2 from your ally, you both need a free hand, and that's for a single Elixir considering that you produce 2 of them at that stage. It's not clunky anymore, it's plain unusable.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you're making those elixirs at the beginning of the day, I think it makes all sorts of sense to hand at least a few of them out at the beginning of the day as well, and then keep redistributing as people use them so that everyone always has one.
On the flip side, for your perpetuals and quicks, it's clearly better to feed/bomb (possibly hand out via flying familiar.)
For the most part, though, if you're feeding someone an elixir rather than having them use the one at their belt, you're effectively saying that their actions are worth more than yours are. It's entirely possible that that's true, in which case, well, sure. Still, that is what you're saying... especially if they were running a build that often has a free hand anyway.
|
|
The build with Life Boost and Spirit Link focuses on interacting with how damage in the game happens as opposed to white room theorizing. In addition, because of the 10 minute duration, it allows taking advantage of other 10 minute buffs to make them last as many encounters as possible. (My current record is 3 encounters before needing to take a 10 min break.)
I don't like Spirit link either.
I think the Martyr feat is much better at doing something very similar but much faster, much more direct, and without wasting a whole turn of spellcasting to set it up.
basically spirit link is wasting a turn for an effect that provides a net 0 towards the party HPs.
The obvious upside is splitting the damage, but in my experience it's rare that you don't get damaged anyways (thus already splitting the damage) and the effect is so miniscule that it just doesn't seem worth both the actions and the spell slot.
The problem with Martyr (and Healer's Blessing) is that it relies on the casting of Heal. It is less about splitting damage and more about consolidating damage on a target that is easy to access. It is not a given that your party members will stay within range to heal easily. If the damage is on the one who casts the heal spells, it's hard to be out of range. Also if the damage is consolidated on the frontliner, a stray crit is more likely bring them to 0, that is inconvenient. You might think that shield other would be the answer, and reasonably so. However, if the healer is surprised by damage enough that they are taken to zero, life also gets inconvenient.
I am curious what you dislike about Spirit Link.It costs 2 actions, a spell slot and your hit points for an effect equivalent to Life Boost. And even if Life Boost is definitely one of the best focus spell in the game, Spirit Link is so far behind I can't consider it.
The only advantage is that you can prebuff with it, but on a prepared caster it's too random to prepare one.
The prebuffing is the point. It is a prebuff life boost with a minor catch.
But you used it with a Witch, not with a Cleric? With a Cleric, getting the 14 in Intelligence is very expensive.
It is/was with a cleric. Yes the intelligence is a cost, but is certainly worth it. I'll also point out that the witch ded gives access to a familiar which you can use to get access to another focus point once per day.
I also point out that Life Boost and Spirit Link trigger at different times during the round. The fast healing from Life Boost heals at the start of the targets turn. Whereas the healing from Spirit Link triggers at the beginning of the healers turn. During multi enemy encouters, this can split up the healing such that the target is healed soon after they take damage. During a single enemy boss encounter, the healing is lumped at pretty much the same time so that you can analyze how much healing is necessary on the healer's turn (if any).
Also of note, spells like Vital Beacon can just be used as third action solutions should the healer's HP begin getting concerning.
At the end of the day, it is through experiencing the build that it is the most convincing. I have a pfs character that is level 8 with the build as well as having played it in Agents of Edgewatch. A friend is playing it currently in my Frozen Flame game. I'm happy to play my pfs character if proof is desired.
The worst alchemist to the most beginner friendly... for an alchemist. I am not claiming it is the most beginner friendly class.
I'm not sure I agree. A dedicated bomber only really has pacing as a learning curve. A bestial mutagenist can be played almost like a martial. Chirurgeon has to juggle its different formula and balance its consumable creation more than any of the others, while struggling to have a good answer to what to do when you don't need to heal. The subclass has the fewest obvious answers for what it wants to do and the most variation in what you need to do with it to make it work.
If you're making those elixirs at the beginning of the day, I think it makes all sorts of sense to hand at least a few of them out at the beginning of the day as well, and then keep redistributing as people use them so that everyone always has one.
Obviously. Potions/Elixirs happen to be useful to everyone from time to time.
For the most part, though, if you're feeding someone an elixir rather than having them use the one at their belt, you're effectively saying that their actions are worth more than yours are.
Among the multiple reasons why this isn't true:
- You have a free hand, something quite rare among martials, who are the one the most in need of healing.- You have action economy enhancers (like Valet and now this new Mutagen) to alleviate the cost.
- You are quite tough (and now can have a big reach), so even if casters also have free hands they may not want to go to the frontline to heal the martials.
- The martial drinking the Elixir provokes an AoO, you may be in a position not to.
- Your routine allows you to do so. Casters for example need 2 actions to cast a spell so they can only heal themselves or someone next to them without losing their entire round.
- The Alchemist is the best class at prebuffing, between poison and now the Spiderthingy Collar. So a part of your efficiency doesn't come directly from your actions.
- You have good out of combat utility, and the game being balanced it means you have lower in combat utility.
- It's your role. So if your actions are worth as much as the Fighter's, it's normal for you to be the one providing the healing.
- And also: You don't have to heal. If you're in a situation where your actions are worth more than the Fighter's, you can just do what you have to do. It's an option, a strong one, but still an option.
The prebuffing is the point. It is a prebuff life boost with a minor catch.
I 100% agree. If you can prebuff then why not. But if you can't prebuff I'd prefer to spend my actions and my spell slot for a Heal that will instantly heal twice more than what Spirit Link will heal during the whole fight and won't cost any of my own hit points.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For the most part, though, if you're feeding someone an elixir rather than having them use the one at their belt, you're effectively saying that their actions are worth more than yours are.Among the multiple reasons why this isn't true:
- You have a free hand, something quite rare among martials, who are the one the most in need of healing.
In general, swashbucklers, monks, rogues, some maguses, and a smattering of maneuver builds from other classes will have a free hand, as will anyone bow-primary, and anyone who expects to be using healer's tools. That's rather better than "quite rare". That said, yes. That's why I said "for the most part".
- You have action economy enhancers (like Valet and now this new Mutagen) to alleviate the cost.
Valet is only barely an action economy enhancer. In order to meaningfully make use of it, you need to start your turn immediately adjacent to your target(s) and be willing to spend your turn feeding two potions while doing nothing else. Technically, you can get a free move action via beastmaster as well, though that requires that you have a GM who's willing to have your companion spontaneously just know where you want them to go each round without you telling them.
I am not aware of the mutagen you're referring to here. What mutagen offers improved action efficiency?
- You are quite tough (and now can have a big reach), so even if casters also have free hands they may not want to go to the frontline to heal the martials.
One step back from the front lines, but okay.
Past that, I don't think that anyone was suggesting "have the casters feed your potions to the martials" as a primary strategy.
- The martial drinking the Elixir provokes an AoO, you may be in a position not to.
Fair.
- Your routine allows you to do so. Casters for example need 2 actions to cast a spell so they can only heal themselves or someone next to them without losing their entire round.
I continue to agree that "have casters feed your potions to martials is not a primary strategy. It's something you want to enable, for the relatively niche situations where it comes up, but it's not primary.
- The Alchemist is the best class at prebuffing, between poison and now the Spiderthingy Collar. So a part of your efficiency doesn't come directly from your actions.
- You have good out of combat utility, and the game being balanced it means you have lower in combat utility.
These are arguments for why it should be okay that the alchemist's actions are worth less than everyone else's. They're not counterarguments to my initial statements.
- It's your role. So if your actions are worth as much as the Fighter's, it's normal for you to be the one providing the healing.
That's not good strategy. Feeding potions to someone is pretty much inherently an act of spending your own actions so that they don't have to. Saying "it's your role" doesn't make it any more or less efficient. That's king of the thing about potions. Outside of Quick Alchemy, once they're brewed, they have the same effects regardless of who's spending that action. The point of "roles" is that by specializing, you can be better at doing Thing X than the rest of your party, and that doesn't really apply here.
- And also: You don't have to heal. If you're in a situation where your actions are worth more than the Fighter's, you can just do what you have to do. It's an option, a strong one, but still an option.
This is true... at which point you are no longer feeding them an elixir, and my earlier statement is inapplicable.
So...
- Martials might not have a free hand
- Technically, you can extract efficiency gains from having a Valet familiar sometimes
- When fighting against AOO-capable enemies, it might be the case that a martial would provoke when drinking, while you could feed them without provoking.
- Your actions are probably worth less than theirs, one-for-one.
That's the reasons I'm seeing to have "feeding people from pre-brewed healing elixirs" be a big part of what you do. You're also well-positioned both for Medic (you'll generally have that free hand anyway) and Blessed One (By default, you're not doing anything else with your focus points)
It's also the case that having a hand free lends itself well to having a bag full of bombs and taking advantage of Quick Bomber, as that's a way to contribute to the battle directly that still lets you keep your hands largely free for all of the various reasons that an alchemist would want that... but we then get down to the question of whether it makes more sense to go primary chirurgeon or primary bomber.
I am not aware of the mutagen you're referring to here. What mutagen offers improved action efficiency?
He's talking about the Choker-arm mutagen that increases reach, so in theory you don't have to move.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
... inherently an act of spending your own actions so that they don't have to...
Which is exactly what every flavor of healing another character does.
|
|
The prebuffing is the point. It is a prebuff life boost with a minor catch.I 100% agree. If you can prebuff then why not. But if you can't prebuff I'd prefer to spend my actions and my spell slot for a Heal that will instantly heal twice more than what Spirit Link will heal during the whole fight and won't cost any of my own hit points.
I can understand that reasoning. But, I find it overly simplistic and/or short sighted. Damage rarely happens in the amounts that the heal spell heals. Therefore, a majority of the time, there is over healing (debatably a wasted spell) or you wait for more damage (which runs the risk of a character going unconscious).
I would also point out that with spirit link after the end of combat, the damage gets piled onto one character. This makes after combat healing much more efficient.
In general, swashbucklers, monks, rogues, some maguses, and a smattering of maneuver builds from other classes will have a free hand, as will anyone bow-primary, and anyone who expects to be using healer's tools. That's rather better than "quite rare". That said, yes. That's why I said "for the most part".Among the multiple reasons why this isn't true:
- You have a free hand, something quite rare among martials, who are the one the most in need of healing.
Monks. The only class I've seen healing with my Elixirs. All the other ones need their hand to stay free, so the Elixir is in the pocket and stay there. What you need is not just a free hand, it's a free hand that carries an Elixir. If you have to draw it, you won't do it as it means having a single action left to act.
Valet is only barely an action economy enhancer.
25% less actions to use an Elixir, that's a nice action enhancer. Also, as a Chirurgeon you can start the fight with Elixirs at hand. At least, that's what my Chirurgeon does.
In order to meaningfully make use of it, you need to start your turn immediately adjacent to your target
That's the whole point of the discussion: With the Choker-Arm Mutagen, you should be able to stay in a central position and have all the party in your reach.
That's not good strategy. Feeding potions to someone is pretty much inherently an act of spending your own actions so that they don't have to.
Not a good strategy?
The Fighter is in need of healing, do you heal with the Alchemist and attack with the Fighter or heal with the Fighter and attack with the Alchemist?If the Fighter is specialized in damage and not the Alchemist, then the answer should be obvious. It doesn't mean that the Alchemist actions are worth less than the Fighter's, it's just that the specialized character does what it's good at while the non specialized character supports.
But once out of combat, the Fighter becomes the support and the Alchemist the one acting. It doesn't mean that the Fighter actions are not worth as much as the Alchemist actions, just that it's now the time for the Alchemist to be the one acting.
These are arguments for why it should be okay that the alchemist's actions are worth less than everyone else's. They're not counterarguments to my initial statements.
I don't say you're totally wrong. Just that there are many factors and not just action efficiency.
I can understand that reasoning. But, I find it overly simplistic and/or short sighted. Damage rarely happens in the amounts that the heal spell heals. Therefore, a majority of the time, there is over healing (debatably a wasted spell) or you wait for more damage (which runs the risk of a character going unconscious).
The whole self-fulfilling prophecy of the Cleric:
- The Cleric uses low level spells (or Spirit Link) to heal someone who will not go down outside some extremely lucky streak.- Because of that it doesn't contribute meaningfully to the fight. As the party is 3 instead of 4 the fight becomes really tough (from Moderate to Severe or from Severe to Extreme). Very quickly damage starts to add up.
- The Cleric can now say that the healing it did at the beginning of the fight was super important considering how the fight was hard. He now looks like a hero despite being the one dragging the party down.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
He's talking about the Choker-arm mutagen that increases reach, so in theory you don't have to move.
That... still doesn't save you any. It reduces the action overhead cost from keeping up with them, and moving around from ally to ally, but for "drink it yourself" all you need is reach 0.
... inherently an act of spending your own actions so that they don't have to...Which is exactly what every flavor of healing another character does.
Not nearly so directly. In many cases (like with Battle Medicine or Heal spells) the resources you're using to heal someoen simply arent' available to them directly. Many heal builds have additional feats that make their versions of those heals more powerful in one way or another thn they would be in the hands of someone else. The thign abotu the chirurgeon is that they make those healign elixirs at the beginning of the day... and then it doesn't matter who uses them. They consume the same resource (the potion) other than actions, and they heal the same amount.
Monks. The only class I've seen healing with my Elixirs. All the other ones need their hand to stay free, so the Elixir is in the pocket and stay there. What you need is not just a free hand, it's a free hand that carries an Elixir. If you have to draw it, you won't do it as it means having a single action left to act.
By default, Getting a potion into someone requires two actions. It could be two of theirs. It could be two of yours. If they're simply not willing to spend those two actions on it... well, it speaks to how important having that elixir drunk is to them.
Valet is only barely an action economy enhancer.25% less actions to use an Elixir, that's a nice action enhancer. Also, as a Chirurgeon you can start the fight with Elixirs at hand. At least, that's what my Chirurgeon does.
Okay, I had to look back at valet, and I admit, I hadnt' realized that you could just have them fill your hand, rather than it being in support of an immediate action. That does actually make it better, given that you can make use of it to fill both hands even on rounds where you're only using one.
That's not good strategy. Feeding potions to someone is pretty much inherently an act of spending your own actions so that they don't have to.Not a good strategy?
The Fighter is in need of healing, do you heal with the Alchemist and attack with the Fighter or heal with the Fighter and attack with the Alchemist?If the Fighter is specialized in damage and not the Alchemist, then the answer should be obvious. It doesn't mean that the Alchemist actions are worth less than the Fighter's, it's just that the specialized character does what it's good at while the non specialized character supports.
...and now we're back at "the alchemist's actions aren't worth as much"... which is what I'd thought you were arguing with. I mean, if, given a choice, you'd always prefer to spend alchemist actions rather than fighter actions, then that's pretty direct evidence that the alchemist's actions aren't worth as much.
I mean, I don't think you're wrong. I think that the alchemist's actions aren't worth as much. The alchemist gets a bunch of their power budget int he form of infused reagents, most of which they spend in the morning, before actions are even counted. The fighter's power budget is pretty much all expressed through their actions. It's not surprising.
I'm realizing that I didn't actually complete the thought, though. First, you're correct in that it's not entirely accurate (as you say, the valet does save you a bit). More, though, the thing that I was tryign to suggest is that if you're heavily dedicating your actions to potion dispensing - to doing something that literally anyone could do... well, it's like what you were saying about the cleric who does nothing but heal. I feel like if you're not putting in some effort to use a bit more of yourself, then you're not going to be as effective overall as you could be.
One thing that I do notice, though... once you get to the middling-high levels, then with the right feat support you can pull things like using Quick Alchemy to produce a perpetual item bomb (sticky) in one hand and a perpetual item healing elixir (healing bomb) in the other, throw the sticky bomb with full BAB, and throw the healing bomb while still pretty sure that it will land... and you can use quicksilver mutagen (improving your accuracy) rather than choker arm (making it worse).
Not nearly so directly. In many cases (like with Battle Medicine or Heal spells) the resources you're using to heal someoen simply arent' available to them directly...... inherently an act of spending your own actions so that they don't have to...Which is exactly what every flavor of healing another character does.
Distinction without any meaningful difference. Spending your own actions (to heal someone) so they don't have to is... spending your own actions blah blah blah.
This line of argumentation is a fallacy at best, disingenuous at worst.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not sure it's necessarily a point worth making either. Spend actions as a support character in order to make things better for your high damage counterparts is a fundamental conceit of PF2 and to an extent team-based RPGs and other games in general. It's not really new information in any relevant way.
|
|
The whole self-fulfilling prophecy of the Cleric:
- The Cleric uses low level spells (or Spirit Link) to heal someone who will not go down outside some extremely lucky streak.
- Because of that it doesn't contribute meaningfully to the fight. As the party is 3 instead of 4 the fight becomes really tough (from Moderate to Severe or from Severe to Extreme). Very quickly damage starts to add up.
- The Cleric can now say that the healing it did at the beginning of the fight was super important considering how the fight was hard. He now looks like a hero despite being the one dragging the party down.
How on earth did you jump to that? The spirit link/life boost is used specifically to have healing happening while using no additional actions. With actions freed up, they can contribute 'meaningfully to the fight'. Did you intentionally non sequitur or accidentally?
By default, Getting a potion into someone requires two actions. It could be two of theirs. It could be two of yours. If they're simply not willing to spend those two actions on it... well, it speaks to how important having that elixir drunk is to them.
But you miss one important thing: Not all actions are made equal.
For example, the Alchemist throws 2 Bombs. They're left with 1 action that they can use to Valet. Next round, they start by feeding the Fighter with an Elixir of Life and Bomb twice once again. They are at peak efficiency.Something that would not have been possible for the Fighter as the Fighter needs their hands and as such has to drink the potion the second they draw it.
Healing with Elixirs of Life ask for preparation. It's not something you do at the last moment otherwise it gets too costly.
More, though, the thing that I was tryign to suggest is that if you're heavily dedicating your actions to potion dispensing - to doing something that literally anyone could do... well, it's like what you were saying about the cleric who does nothing but heal. I feel like if you're not putting in some effort to use a bit more of yourself, then you're not going to be as effective overall as you could be.
I fully agree. That's why the build I've put in this discussion uses the massive Reach given by Choker-Arm Mutagen to control a large area thanks to Attack of Opportunity. My other Alchemist uses Bombs like I explained just before, using Elixirs of Life in between her Bombs to maximize her efficiency (without the Reach from Choker-Arm Mutagen, it's a bit harder, but it works still quite fine).
How on earth did you jump to that? The spirit link/life boost is used specifically to have healing happening while using no additional actions. With actions freed up, they can contribute 'meaningfully to the fight'. Did you intentionally non sequitur or accidentally?
Sorry, my answer was not polite.
It's just that I've seen that too often: Clerics healing for negligeable amounts at the beginning of the fight (by either casting low level Heals or spells like Spirit Link), healing that ended up useless as the characters they healed never took enough damage to even be in the red.In PF2, outside the very first levels that are extremely swingy, you heal only when a character goes under 50% hp (or you know it will happen). Healing earlier is taking the risk that you just wasted your actions and resources, and as such don't contribute for a round, something that raises the overall difficulty of the fight by putting all the burden of killing the enemies on your teammates shoulders.
|
|
How on earth did you jump to that? The spirit link/life boost is used specifically to have healing happening while using no additional actions. With actions freed up, they can contribute 'meaningfully to the fight'. Did you intentionally non sequitur or accidentally?Sorry, my answer was not polite.
It's just that I've seen that too often: Clerics healing for negligeable amounts at the beginning of the fight (by either casting low level Heals or spells like Spirit Link), healing that ended up useless as the characters they healed never took enough damage to even be in the red.
In PF2, outside the very first levels that are extremely swingy, you heal only when a character goes under 50% hp (or you know it will happen). Healing earlier is taking the risk that you just wasted your actions and resources, and as such don't contribute for a round, something that raises the overall difficulty of the fight by putting all the burden of killing the enemies on your teammates shoulders.
I wouldn't call it not polite, I'd go for unnecessarily extreme. While I can see people playing clerics in a way where they do not contribute damage to the combat, it seems excessive to assume that any given cleric would do so.
Also, I'm a little confused about being bothered by a lack of contribution for 1 round. The vast number of times every character experiences their turn being useless is significant. Crit success vs their spell, failure to land any strike happens very often. Why does 1 round bother you?
While I can see people playing clerics in a way where they do not contribute damage to the combat, it seems excessive to assume that any given cleric would do so.
My experience, as of now, is that most Clerics do so. That's why I've reacted to your comment because it was painting exactly that.
Also, I'm a little confused about being bothered by a lack of contribution for 1 round. The vast number of times every character experiences their turn being useless is significant. Crit success vs their spell, failure to land any strike happens very often. Why does 1 round bother you?
Last high level PFS game I've played (with my Angelic Sorcerer, so I was quite aware of the healing situation as it was also my role) there was a Cleric. He healed 4 times, only one of the Heals was in a useful situation. If it was just one round every now and then, I'd not say that. But when it's 25% of your rounds where you are using resources to do nothing, it starts to be visible.
Hmm. If your healing doesn't end up having an effect, the fight must have went smoothly anyways right? So no harm if you're not actively hindering your allies. The extra beefy health pools can serve as insurance.
If you're fine with having someone not contributing in the party, then I guess it is. But when you are only 4, it's a bit of an issue. As the rest of the party will have to use extra resources to compensate the lack of efficiency of the Cleric.