Firefox: natural weapons of fire build help


Advice


Hi!

This build isnt anything game breaking or anything, just wanted to be a firefox. What ideas do you all have? With two levels, and being a kitsune with fox shape, you can deal an extra 2d6 fire with a swift. Where can we expand it from there? 16 levels of druid for better shapes maybe?

Elemental Ascetic

Spoiler:

Elemental Flurry (Su)
At 1st level, an elemental ascetic gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. He gains the kinetic fist form infusion and it costs 0 points of burn instead of 1 point of burn. When using the kinetic fist form infusion with a full attack, he can make a flurry of blows as the monk class feature. He must use only his fists to make this flurry, no matter what other abilities he possesses.

Like a monk, he can use this ability only when unarmored, not using a shield, and unencumbered. He can’t use his kinetic blast without a form infusion, nor can he ever use his kinetic blast with the chain, extended range, extreme range, foe throw, flurry of blasts, many throw, or snake form infusions, or with any other form infusion that requires a ranged attack roll or ranged touch attack roll.

This ability alters kinetic blast and replaces elemental overflow.

Elementalist Shifter

Spoiler:

Elemental Strike (Su)
At 1st level, as a swift action, an elementalist shifter can charge her melee attacks with elemental energy. The elementalist shifter can charge her attacks only with an element she has chosen with elemental aspect. Once charged, each melee attack the elementalist shifter makes until the start of her next turn deals an additional 1d6 points of energy damage based on the element she chooses when taking this action (see Elemental Aspects). This additional damage increases by 1d6 at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, to a maximum of 6d6 points of energy damage at 20th level. An elementalist shifter can’t use elemental strike while under a polymorph effect.

This replaces shifter claws.

There's a feat chain that lets you meld weapons into wildshapes, but I'm not sure if Battle Poi would work or not to turn all melee damage into fire. It needs fuel based off its description, but it never mechanically makes reference of it. what are your thoughts? If it did, then any extra damage like power attack or sneak attack damage would also be pure fire (crocodile domain with vivisectionist dip possily). Does the flame blade spell work with weapon shift?

Spoiler:

Weapon Shift
Your melee weapons meld into your animal form.

Prerequisite(s): Wild shape class feature.

Benefit(s): When you use your wild shape ability, any melee weapons you are wielding and proficient with meld into your new form. Select one of these weapons; while in your new form, your natural attacks deal the same damage type as that weapon. Your natural attacks also gain all of the weapon’s properties (such as disarm), other than the double weapon property and the fragile weapon property; moreover, when using this feat to grant the trip property to your natural attacks, you gain a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks to trip an enemy, but you cannot drop your weapon to avoid being tripped due to a failed trip attempt. Weapon Shift does not apply a magic weapon’s enhancement bonus to your natural attacks, nor does it grant your natural attacks any of a weapon’s magical special abilities.

Battle poi
Source Adventurer's Armory pg. 2, Legacy of Fire Player's Guide pg. 22
Statistics
Cost 5 gp Weight 2 lbs.
Damage 1d3 fire (small), 1d4 fire (medium); Critical x2; Range —; Type fire; Special —
Category Light; Proficiency Exotic
Weapon Groups Flails
Description
This pair of arm-length chains has handles at one end and heavy fuel-soaked torch heads at the other. The weight of the poi is insufficient to deal physical damage, but the burning fuel deals fire damage. If you are proficient in battle poi, you are treated as if you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for the purposes of making poi attacks. Poi can be extinguished by spending a full round action smothering them in sand or submerging them in water.

if we were orc we could worship the fire god and heal, but gotta be kitsune for fox shape at least. If we went orc we could just wait for wildshapes I guess. You could take human guise and then racial heritage to be any other race, but thats a big investment.

Thoughts?


If you're looking at wildshape, anyway, there's always the Flame Blade Dervish Combat feat. The heal/fire theme also lines up with Sarenrae, and a sun-soaked fox druid sounds pretty interesting!


Makarion wrote:
If you're looking at wildshape, anyway, there's always the Flame Blade Dervish Combat feat. The heal/fire theme also lines up with Sarenrae, and a sun-soaked fox druid sounds pretty interesting!

I really like the flame blade idea, but im not sure it works well with weapon shift. It would turn the damage to fire i think, but it wouldn't become a touch attack, nor get the cha to damage while shifted, would it? I think it only gains damage "type" but doesn't count as the weapon. For example, I dont think I could use weapon focus scimitar to get a +1 while shapeshifted with Shift Weapon. Unless I read it wrong?


What you want I think is Feral Hunter with the Planar Focus feat. Feral Hunter gets wild shape, and Planar focus feat with the Fire focus grants 1d6 fire damage per 4 levels of hunter.


thelemonache wrote:
Makarion wrote:
If you're looking at wildshape, anyway, there's always the Flame Blade Dervish Combat feat. The heal/fire theme also lines up with Sarenrae, and a sun-soaked fox druid sounds pretty interesting!
I really like the flame blade idea, but im not sure it works well with weapon shift. It would turn the damage to fire i think, but it wouldn't become a touch attack, nor get the cha to damage while shifted, would it? I think it only gains damage "type" but doesn't count as the weapon. For example, I dont think I could use weapon focus scimitar to get a +1 while shapeshifted with Shift Weapon. Unless I read it wrong?

This is exactly correct. Weapon shift only applies damage type and weapon properties nothing more. Improved Weapon Shift will applies weapon special abilities, and Greater Weapon Shift will apply enhancement bonus from the chosen weapon… your natural attacks will still be natural attacks, they wont count as the weapon itself.

As cheesy as it may seem, nothing really stops the battle poi from changing your damage type to fire through weapon shift… so long as the poi was lit when you shifted, you would deal fire damage.

It is worth noting though, that generally the weapon shift feat chain is not worth it… 3 feats to gain full benefit of a magic weapon while wild shaped is a heavy investment for a class as feat starved as the druid or shifter.


Chell Raighn wrote:
thelemonache wrote:
Makarion wrote:
If you're looking at wildshape, anyway, there's always the Flame Blade Dervish Combat feat. The heal/fire theme also lines up with Sarenrae, and a sun-soaked fox druid sounds pretty interesting!
I really like the flame blade idea, but im not sure it works well with weapon shift. It would turn the damage to fire i think, but it wouldn't become a touch attack, nor get the cha to damage while shifted, would it? I think it only gains damage "type" but doesn't count as the weapon. For example, I dont think I could use weapon focus scimitar to get a +1 while shapeshifted with Shift Weapon. Unless I read it wrong?

This is exactly correct. Weapon shift only applies damage type and weapon properties nothing more. Improved Weapon Shift will applies weapon special abilities, and Greater Weapon Shift will apply enhancement bonus from the chosen weapon… your natural attacks will still be natural attacks, they wont count as the weapon itself.

As cheesy as it may seem, nothing really stops the battle poi from changing your damage type to fire through weapon shift… so long as the poi was lit when you shifted, you would deal fire damage.

It is worth noting though, that generally the weapon shift feat chain is not worth it… 3 feats to gain full benefit of a magic weapon while wild shaped is a heavy investment for a class as feat starved as the druid or shifter.

As I build this, I am noticing that... haha. My best build so far is only 4-6 levels of druid with the feat that gives me 4 multiclass levels of wildshape. If I use ranger, I can squeak out some more free feats and use shapeshifting hunter for extra times per day too (i dont really need all the spells, even though they are really good for natural attacks). So far it seems the most "synergistic" way to pull off a combat shapeshifter without being overly feat starved.

Another thought is to just embrace the fox shape feat, and go all in with a martial class that enhances it. maybe a dip into white haired witch for at will hair, a monk investment would be great but at that rate just use fists...But alas, fun first. ;)


Trokarr wrote:
What you want I think is Feral Hunter with the Planar Focus feat. Feral Hunter gets wild shape, and Planar focus feat with the Fire focus grants 1d6 fire damage per 4 levels of hunter.

feral hunter could be really cool! But dang, losing all those teamwork feats is brutal. I wont be summoning much in fox form.


Once you hit 6th level feral hunter you can use wild shape to turn into a fox. The Natural Spell feat will allow you to summon while wild shaped so you can summon as a fox if that’s what you really want to do. The feral hunters summon pack ability lets you summon an extra creature with summon natures ally and summons for minutes per level so not a bad idea to capitalize on it.


I took a closer look at the Elementalist shifter ability and noticed that it doesn’t function while polymorphed so I’m afraid you won’t be able to use it for this build. I highly recommend taking the first weapon shift feat for this build. As foxes are tiny sized you will need to move into an enemy’s square to attack them, provoking when you do so. If you weapon shift a reach weapon you will be able to attack into adjacent squares and avoid this problem.


If I were to make a “Firefox” build I would probably go about it a bit differently. One option would be to go all in on elemental ascetic with a one lvl dip in mouser swashbuckler (for weapon finesse and the ability to get into the enemy’s square easier). I would take the fan of flames infusion and use it as a “breath weapon” (since a foxes’ mouth is more hand like than a paw as far as functionality it seems reasonable that the kinetic blast would originate there). The Elemental ascetic flurry of blows can only be used with fists but if a permissive GM allows paws to be used I would go VMC monk to get increased unarmed strike damage and the ki class feature (as well as all the other goodies). Another option is to go crossblooded sorcerer with the psychic and draconic bloodlines. With psychic you can cast while polymorphed so no problem with fox shape there. I would use Burning Hands as my “breath weapon” for this build (until level 9 when you get a real one). I would go VMC wizard for the familiar and take the admixture school for increased damage with evocation spells like burning hands. I would also take the Blood Havok bloodline mutation to increase damage on burning hands and the draconic bloodline will add to that as well. Intensified spell metamagic will also be needed. Flumefire rage feat will up the damage also once you get a reasonable fort save. Those would be my 2 number one choices.


Trokarr wrote:
If I were to make a “Firefox” build I would probably go about it a bit differently. One option would be to go all in on elemental ascetic with a one lvl dip in mouser swashbuckler (for weapon finesse and the ability to get into the enemy’s square easier). I would take the fan of flames infusion and use it as a “breath weapon” (since a foxes’ mouth is more hand like than a paw as far as functionality it seems reasonable that the kinetic blast would originate there). The Elemental ascetic flurry of blows can only be used with fists but if a permissive GM allows paws to be used I would go VMC monk to get increased unarmed strike damage and the ki class feature (as well as all the other goodies). Another option is to go crossblooded sorcerer with the psychic and draconic bloodlines. With psychic you can cast while polymorphed so no problem with fox shape there. I would use Burning Hands as my “breath weapon” for this build (until level 9 when you get a real one). I would go VMC wizard for the familiar and take the admixture school for increased damage with evocation spells like burning hands. I would also take the Blood Havok bloodline mutation to increase damage on burning hands and the draconic bloodline will add to that as well. Intensified spell metamagic will also be needed. Flumefire rage feat will up the damage also once you get a reasonable fort save. Those would be my 2 number one choices.

Oh yeah that last sentence literally says no polymorph...ouch. I love all the rest of these ideas though. My first level was definitely going to be mouser. My original plan is an "evasion tank" style character, but i was finding it difficult to actually do damage without sneak attack (pre level 3 at least), and to give the tiny fox a toolkit, it really felt like I needed to do multiclass.

Original rough idea:
1. Swashbuckler (mouser) - Half Finesse, and Cha for int combat feats, combat expertise
2. Kineticist Elemental Ascetic - pick an infusion
3. Flowing Monk 1 - Dodge, Redirect Attack
4. Flowing Monk 2 - Improved Trip
5. Flowing Monk 3 - bonus to dodge based off adjacent enemies, deceitful
6. class??
7. class?? - misdirection tactics
8. class??
9. class?? - swift kitsune shapechanger, maybe osyluths guile
10. class??
11. class?? - misdirection redirection
12. class??
13. class?? - possibly vulpine pounce if I have the BAB

The main idea, is charging into peoples squares and drawing attacks of opportunities away from party members. While in the square I provide flanking and try to get bad guys to hit each other.

Class??? ideas:

elemental ascetic would be very fire thematic and good damage I think. possibly the best idea out there? but i would be limited to just one bite if im doing melee (im sure there is some cool kineticist things I can do as well in melee with that class). most kineticist stuff requires a free hand though. I think Grasping and mischievous tail would work as a hand if it works while polymorphed.

rogue gets me the much desired sneak attack and dex to damage with bite, and rogue talents could get me a few combat feats that I would have taken anyway

shifter gets me shifters edge, waaay better wild shapes, and most importantly at sixth level would let me full attack with bite. would probably drop monk if i went this route since shifters get better AC than monks with their ability to wear armor and keep half wisdom bonus. I would need a real weapon finesse though for this since swashbucklers only allows piercing weapons. very feat starved with this direction

swashbuckler would get me precise strike for better damage with bite and feats which are more than welcome

Paladin is always good, but not very thematic.

more monk is always good, but not very firey, quigong can get scorching ray I guess

Druid would also get me decent spells and lots of utility as well as all the wildshape things, incluing weapon shifting a battle poi or flameblade for the complete "I do fire damage with my natural weapons" package. but soooo feat starved.

Vigilante gets all the best feats and great skills, and could even get combo dependant sneak attack. Not a lot of fire though...too bad I cant "warlock" while not having hands.

I think Crane Style is more important than misdirection tactics, but I've just always wanted to see it in action, dodging a crit into someone else sounds fun. I'm going to chart out how I would do an elemental ascetic and see how that looks while I'm thinking of more ideas.


Bite attacks are bludgeoning slashing and piercing so you could use them with swashbuckler finesse.


Trokarr wrote:
Bite attacks are bludgeoning slashing and piercing so you could use them with swashbuckler finesse.

I know, I'm saying if I went with other forms for the purpose of getting more attacks (like claws), I would more than likely need either a full finesse, or one of the feat packs that lets me have more damage types (like feral combat training/snake style, that sort of thing)


Reading over elemental flurry from the Elemental Ascetic… it says “as the monk class feature” when talks about flurry of blows, but makes no mention of counting the kineticists levels as monk levels for it… which as far as I can tell means one of two things…

1) Elemental Ascetic treats Elemental Flurry as the Monks Flurry of Blows and is able to stack with it for determining power…

Or

2) Elemental Ascetic has an effective monk level of 0 and can’t actually make use of Elemental Flurry unless they take levels in monk.

Either way… you could take a 1 level dip into Menhir Guardian Monk to gain the ability to use some natural weapons with flurry.


Chell Raighn wrote:


Either way… you could take a 1 level dip into Menhir Guardian Monk to gain the ability to use some natural weapons with flurry.

Unfortunately that wouldn't work, the Menhir flurry only works with shifter claws, and shifter claws only work in base form or wild shape form, rather than regular ole' polymorph. But if I did go the wildshape route, then that would work! :)


Unfortunately you can’t use shifter claws to gain any extra attacks in wild shape. “Shifter Claws (Su): At will, a shifter in her NATURAL form can extend her claws as a swift action to use as a weapon.” Shifter claws does allow you to apply the benefits of shifter claws, such as increased damage and the ability to bypass DR, to up to two natural attacks your wild shape possesses but you can’t extend them because it’s not your natural form.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

On the other hand I’ve come across this recently. “Morphic Mask (Su) (Chronicle of Legends pg. 7): The vigilante’s physical form in his vigilante identity can differ significantly from that of his social identity, within the norms for his race—this can include changes to the vigilante’s proportions, coloration, gender characteristics, and other physical characteristics. This increases the vigilante’s bonus from seamless guise by 2 for every significant change, as per the Disguise skill. The vigilante always assumes the same form when using this ability. A vigilante with multiple NATURAL forms, such as a kitsune, can alter each of his forms using this talent.” Given this it seems clear that Paizo considers a kitsune’s alternate forms to be natural ones so given the exact wording of shifter claws they should be useable in all of its forms including Fox Shape. I will also point out that shifter claws deal slashing and piercing damage so they will work with swashbuckler finesse.


I would also consider having a Helm of the Mammoth Lord constructed for your Fox Shape. That will give you another natural attack to use (I think gore attacks are piercing as well).


Trokarr wrote:
I would also consider having a Helm of the Mammoth Lord constructed for your Fox Shape. That will give you another natural attack to use (I think gore attacks are piercing as well).

Spirit Oni Master would give a gore too, but it would take a precious feat. I'll have to look into the vigilante thing you mentioned, i wonder if fox shape counts as a natural form too since it uses the same mechanic?


Personally I would rule that it does but of course you should check with your GM on that. It seems reasonable though. Also considering that it can be taken as an alternate racial trait it would make sense to be a natural form.

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